cheating in golf

eunified61

been playing now for three years, just recently got my handicap, played a few competitions, was surprised how many player ignore the rules concerning balls in the rough, bunkers , behind un staked trees etc. Is this common,is it time for a theory test for golfers to see if they know the rules. I have heard players say" so and so never scores well unless he's marking a card"

stockdam

I've rarely seen cheating or anyone ignoring rules. Maybe when people are just messing around playing a friendly game (eg they will throw a ball down if they can't find their ball rather than walk back and play another but that speeds up play....I'm still talking about a friendly game here)

Give us some examples.

Woodgate

eunified61 wrote: »

been playing now for three years, just recently got my handicap, played a few competitions, was surprised how many player ignore the rules concerning balls in the rough, bunkers , behind un staked trees etc. Is this common,is it time for a theory test for golfers to see if they know the rules. I have heard players say" so and so never scores well unless he's marking a card"

Don't really understand what you are trying to say, can you elaborate?
What are the rules you are referring to concerning a ball in the rough, i.e. leather wedge type stuff or what, it's a very vague question.

stockdam

Leather wedge..........:D

copacetic

don't think I have ever seen anyone break a rule, even in a friendly game, except allowing gimmes and the odd agreed mulligan.

Swinging Looney

copacetic wrote: »

don't think I have ever seen anyone break a rule, even in a friendly game, except allowing gimmes and the odd agreed mulligan.

Ha ha! Well there's two examples of rule breaking you've seen then!

I think it is probably unfair to call it Rule Breaking really as most of the things I would have seen are the result of not simply knowing the rules. Perhaps Rule Ignorance would be more appropriate.

Plenty of people dropping balls after losing the original, dropping at a convenient place rather than a correct place after hitting into a water hazard, not dropping at nearest point of relief from behind a staked tree, club touching sand in bunkers, and the best one of all - every time your ball goes into the rough, tell your opponent that you are not sure if it is your ball and you want to lift it to find out, and then place it on a better lie!!

In the big scheme of things, I don't think it makes too much difference, as most of those who do this are hackers who rarely win anything and are just trying to enjoy the game more.

markie4

I played a match against an experienced "links" player who didn't realise hitting a tree on his practice swing was improving his lie????

I would think there is a lot of Rules ignorance generally about, but maybe that's a reflection on the hackers I generally play with

Mister Sifter

I played with a guy recently (a single handicapper) who knocked it into the trees, then leaned into the tree and tucked all the branches behind his legs to give himself a shot. Pulled him up on it though as he went from having no shot to potentially being able to knock it 100 yards up the fairway.

I often see fellas taking practice swings in the trees and knocking leaves off which is a penalty. There are a lot of rules like that which a fair number of players wouldn't know though.

copacetic

Swinging Looney wrote: »

Ha ha! Well there's two examples of rule breaking you've seen then!
.

well I did say except those two! and they are by agreement so in a friendly game are fine..

BrianD3

Some of the most obvious rule breaking I've come across concerns Advice. Eg I'm playing in a 3 ball singles comp and the other two are discussing club selection before they take their shots. I've heard experienced low handicappers at this and I felt like an arse for pointing out the rule breaking - especially since I don't believe any benefit was gained from the advice.

Hobart

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I played with a guy recently (a single handicapper) who knocked it into the trees, then leaned into the tree and tucked all the branches behind his legs to give himself a shot. Pulled him up on it though as he went from having no shot to potentially being able to knock it 100 yards up the fairway..

markie4 wrote: »

I played a match against an experienced "links" player who didn't realise hitting a tree on his practice swing was improving his lie????

I would think there is a lot of Rules ignorance generally about, but maybe that's a reflection on the hackers I generally play with

What rules do these examples break? I know that one cannot improve one's lie, but moving branches in order to get a stance? Hitting a tree on a practice swing? I didn't realise that these broke any rules, anybody got a reference? (I'm not talking about knocking off leaves or breaking branches btw).

Hobart

BrianD3 wrote: »

Some of the most obvious rule breaking I've come across concerns Advice. Eg I'm playing in a 3 ball singles comp and the other two are discussing club selection before they take their shots. I've heard experienced low handicappers at this and I felt like an arse for pointing out the rule breaking - especially since I don't believe any benefit was gained from the advice.

The rule regarding advice has changed this year.

Mister Sifter

Hobart wrote: »

What rules do these examples break? I know that one cannot improve one's lie, but moving branches in order to get a stance? Hitting a tree on a practice swing? I didn't realise that these broke any rules, anybody got a reference? (I'm not talking about knocking off leaves or breaking branches btw).

From the rule book ---

"13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line
of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
• the position or lie of his ball,
• the area of his intended stance or swing,
• his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the
hole, or
• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
• pressing a club on the ground,
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including
immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or
other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
• in fairly taking his stance,
• in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a
stroke and the stroke is made,
• in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing
ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the
teeing ground, or
• on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing
damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard – see Rule 13-4."

fullstop

Graeme1982 wrote: »

From the rule book ---

"13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line
of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
• the position or lie of his ball,
• the area of his intended stance or swing,
• his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the
hole, or
• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
• pressing a club on the ground,
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including
immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or
other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
• in fairly taking his stance,
• in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a
stroke and the stroke is made,
• in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing
ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the
teeing ground, or
• on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing
damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard – see Rule 13-4."

Regarding the one of taking a stance beside a tree, you could say that in order to take your normal stance you need to move a branch. I think that may be ok as long as you don't break anything and the first bit in bold is more to do with taking a swing or path of intended shot.

Joseph Kuhr

Hobart wrote: »

What rules do these examples break? I know that one cannot improve one's lie, but moving branches in order to get a stance? Hitting a tree on a practice swing? I didn't realise that these broke any rules, anybody got a reference? (I'm not talking about knocking off leaves or breaking branches btw).

I'm aware of moving branches, making a clearing for yourself etc being against the rules. If you think about it, you might as well just pick the ball up and put it in a clearer spot.

Imhof Tank

Graeme1982 wrote: »

leaned into the tree and tucked all the branches behind his legs to give himself a shot. Pulled him up on it though as he went from having no shot to potentially being able to knock it 100 yards up the fairway.

This is a grey area though. The player is allowed to bend branches, thereby improving the swing area, in fairly taking his stance - and it is conceivable that this could cover the exact scenario you describe.

"Tucking" branches behind one legs probably goes beyond taking a fair stance - but still, I wouldnt be comfortable accusing a playing partner in this type of case.

Mister Sifter

Imhof Tank wrote: »

This is a grey area though. The player is allowed to bend branches, thereby improving the swing area, in fairly taking his stance - and it is conceivable that this could cover the exact scenario you describe.

"Tucking" branches behind one legs probably goes beyond taking a fair stance - but still, I wouldnt be comfortable accusing a playing partner in this type of case.

I always work on the idea that your stance should change to suit the tree, not the tree to suit the stance.

I don't see any difference in moving branches to patting down the grass directly behind the ball in the rough.

Imhof Tank

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I always work on the idea that your stance should change to suit the tree, not the tree to suit the stance.

I don't see any difference in moving branches to patting down the grass directly behind the ball in the rough.

That's a particular interpretation, but its not the only interpretation possible. I think since the rule expressly permits bending of branches in limited circumstances - surely it has to be accepted that this can be done in certain cases, and you cant just automatcially say "you bent that branch - penalty".

Mister Sifter

Imhof Tank wrote: »

That's a particular interpretation, but its not the only interpretation possible. I think since the rule expressly permits bending of branches in limited circumstances - surely it has to be accepted that this can be done in certain cases, and you cant just automatcially say "you bent that branch - penalty".

Like alot of rules in golf you have to use an element of judgement, yes.

In the instance i'm talking about where it was the difference between progressing the ball 10 yards or 100 yards the guy was breaking the rules.

That said, according to the rule book, if you're bending something out your path then you're breaking the rules though.

Imhof Tank

Well, I think that particular rule requires a lot more judgement than others which are absolutely clear cut, which is why I would be wary of challenging someone over it.

A case I saw earlier this year was where in a singles stableford competition, one of my playing partners played his second shot on a par 4 into deep jungle, had a bit of a search, couldnt find it, and then took a "penalty" drop out in the clear to the fairway side of the jungle.

He scratched the hole so I didnt make an issue of it (which I regret actually) but I am pretty sure he thought there was a different rule for stableford play compared to stokeplay in terms of his options after losing the ball.

Hobart

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I always work on the idea that your stance should change to suit the tree, not the tree to suit the stance.

I don't see any difference in moving branches to patting down the grass directly behind the ball in the rough.

Sorry but from your own quote...

Graeme1982 wrote:

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in fairly taking his stance,

How can a player be deemed to be cheating, if he is taking a stance to hit the ball, and in fairly doing so, bends a branch (not break btw)? How does bending a branch to fairly take your stroke, break any rule?

Mister Sifter

Hobart wrote: »

Sorry but from your own quote...

How can a player be deemed to be cheating, if he is taking a stance to hit the ball, and in fairly doing so, bends a branch (not break btw)? How does bending a branch to fairly take your stroke, break any rule?

Within reason obviously.

stockdam

It does get difficult at times........

I think that if you are taking your normal stance and you bend a branch then that's fine. If it's s gorse then it's ok to move branches out of the way in order to take your stance.

However it becomes cheating (I think) when you see players wiggling and moving their feet around in order to get a much better stance.

Obviously I stay well away from trees and gorse for this very reason

Matt Santos

Have had this discussion with plenty of people and not just on the golf course.
The element of cheating in golf is crazy at the moment. I initially put it down to the obvious raise in numbers that has happened over the last 20 odd years but it is more than that.
In fairness if you are going to double or maybe treble the amount of people that are playing Open Single events in Clubs around now there is going to be wide ignorance of some of the fundamentals in golf rules..
The "drop" from the jungle posted earlier is a common enough story. Guys that think that it is "unfair" to have to concede the distance as well as the stroke is common place. It takes a little gumption to point out to somebody that what they have done is indeed wrong but if you dont tell them now they will never know!!
I believe the harvesting of 0.1 is a bigger issue in the long term because that is a concious decision to return a card that does not represent the correct standard of golf that the player is capable of.
All you can do with "rule benders" is point out the error and hope that they take it on board.

Goodluck2me

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I played with a guy recently (a single handicapper) who knocked it into the trees, then leaned into the tree and tucked all the branches behind his legs to give himself a shot. .

I would do this frequently. I was assured that as long as you weren't taking the p1ss it was ok, i.e. if your right handed and need to get tree-side so to speak its ok to budge into the tree to swing. Obviously you can;t break trees as this would be detrimental long-term to the course, but not bending the tree is ridiculous.

Hobart wrote: »

The rule regarding advice has changed this year.

How has it changed, what to?

Matt Santos wrote: »

I believe the harvesting of 0.1 is a bigger issue in the long term because that is a concious decision to return a card that does not represent the correct standard of golf that the player is capable of. .

People "saving" their handicaps is a much worse problem. friend of mine seen a guy take 8 putts from 10ft one day near the end in a stroke. ridiculous

Hobart

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Within reason obviously.

? Ambguity? And yet you pulled up some bloke on it? Remember, advantage only comes into it with a drop. What did this chap say?

stockdam wrote: »

It does get difficult at times........

I think that if you are taking your normal stance and you bend a branch then that's fine. If it's s gorse then it's ok to move branches out of the way in order to take your stance.

I did not think that there was any ambiguity about it, if there was, I would suggest not signing the players card. As for the examples above (and over-leaf) I'm totally astounded that somebody would pull up a player that had had branches behind their backs/legs. I'm sure that I have done this in the past, and I've never been pulled up on it, more less than be accused of cheating.

Hobart

goodluck2me wrote: »

How has it changed, what to?

Advice if you say the club, not advice if you say the distance.

i.e. What did you play there?
(penalty)

What do you reckon the distance is?
(no longer a penalty)

eunified61

My impression is that a lot of confusion amongst golfers as to the amount of enforcement of the rules for example I said to a guy with whom I was playing a "friendly game" that it was against the rules to ground the club in a bunker, he replied that those kind of rules are only for pros. In the past week he has won one tournament and finished second in another (all team events) for some reason these guys never play singles.I dont like to appear to cynical but I can see from the replies that I am not alone,any solutions

Hobart

eunified61 wrote: »

My impression is that a lot of confusion amongst golfers as to the amount of enforcement of the rules for example I said to a guy with whom I was playing a "friendly game" that it was against the rules to ground the club in a bunker, he replied that those kind of rules are only for pros. In the past week he has won one tournament and finished second in another (all team events) for some reason these guys never play singles.I dont like to appear to cynical but I can see from the replies that I am not alone,any solutions

Well, yes and no. Firstly, there are "some" rules that are different for pro's, that do not apply to amateurs. Secondly, although I would be not overly pushy about the rules of the game in a friendly game, I would always point out where a rule has been breached.

Thirdly, brush up on the rules. I'm not saying have them verbatim, but it's very obvious that some people have no idea about some very basic rules, even those which are subject to interpretation.

Finally, if you see somebody who is obviously cheating, refuse to sign the card, or inform your playing partner, that you intend to dispute the score, should they decide to sign the card.

I have never had a situation wherby I have pointed out a breach of the rules, or questioned them, where a playing partner of mine has not acknowledged that breach or at least sought clarification, so it's not really an issue for me. Although I try and be a stickler for the rules tbh.

eunified61

Hobart wrote: »

Well, yes and no. Firstly, there are "some" rules that are different for pro's, that do not apply to amateurs. Secondly, although I would be not overly pushy about the rules of the game in a friendly game, I would always point out where a rule has been breached.

Thirdly, brush up on the rules. I'm not saying have them verbatim, but it's very obvious that some people have no idea about some very basic rules, even those which are subject to interpretation.

Finally, if you see somebody who is obviously cheating, refuse to sign the card, or inform your playing partner, that you intend to dispute the score, should they decide to sign the card.

I have never had a situation wherby I have pointed out a breach of the rules, or questioned them, where a playing partner of mine has not acknowledged that breach or at least sought clarification, so it's not really an issue for me. Although I try and be a stickler for the rules tbh.

Pretty good advice Hobart I'll take it . In future I'll open a more positive thread

copacetic

nothing wrong with the thread eunified, it was an eye opener for me how much
seems to go on...

Swinging Looney

Hobart wrote: »

Advice if you say the club, not advice if you say the distance.

i.e. What did you play there?
(penalty)

What do you reckon the distance is?
(no longer a penalty)

I understood that as always being the case. Asking what club is advice. As is asking if the trees behind the green will shelter it from the wind a bit is advice. Asking if I should tee it up a little higher with my driver is advice.

Asking yardages or positions of flags, bunkers, rough, water, etc, etc, is nothing more than requesting a statement of fact. No rule is broken if you ask a question that is inquiring about objective issues or factual issues.

You can happily ask where the bunkers are located on a Par 3. You can not ask where you should hit your tee shot to avoid them.

I would be careful about asking "what do you reckon the distance is?" because that could potentially be construed as asking your opponents opinion rather a request for a fact. "What distance is it?" would be much safer!

PhilipMarlowe

I get exactly where Graeme is coming from with this "fairly taking your stance".
Just because you are in the trees doesn't entitle you to bending everything out of the way of your normal swing/stance.
In fact, the decisions on this rule gives more clarity to "fairly"
Q
Rule 13-2 states that a player must not improve the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing or his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole by moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds). An exception permits a player to do so in “fairly taking his stance”. What is the significance of “fairly”?
A
Without “fairly”, the exception would permit improvement of position or lie, area of intended stance or swing or line of play by anything that could be said to be taking a stance.
The use of “fairly” is intended to limit the player to what is reasonably necessary to take a stance for the selected stroke without unduly improving the position of the ball, his lie, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. Thus, in taking his stance for the selected stroke, the player should
select the least intrusive course of action which results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing. He must accommodate the situation in which the ball is found and take a stance as normal as the circumstances permit. What is fair must be determined in the light of all the circumstances.
Examples of actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.
• bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball. Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with the hands, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.
• standing on a branch to prevent it interfering with the backswing or stroke.
• hooking one branch on another or braiding two weeds for the same purpose.
• bending with a hand a branch obscuring the ball after the stance has been taken.
• bending an interfering branch with the hands, a leg or the body in taking a stance when the stance could have been taken without bending the branch. (Revised)

The last line here is kinda the key - people will often go over and above what is necessary (fair) to take the stance, and as you see above, once you take your stance, you can't move a branch out of the way with your hand.
You are allowed to back into the trees to take your stance, even allowed to break branches as long as it is a consequence of fairly taking the stance and as long as it was the only way/least obtrusive way of getting in there in the first place.

Swinging Looney

Wow! Fair play Licksy! I think that clears all that up then! Good post!

Just reading through some of the other replies, I stumbled upon a pet peeve of mine. People who deliberately ruin scores or don't return cards in order to increase their handicap or protect it from going up.

Recently at my club, I heard of a case of a guy who was playing in a Singles Matchplay competition. A few days before his second round match, he entered a Sunday competition and then got in the car and drove home. He didn't even tee up on the first tee! All so that he would get an extra 0.1 back and end up with an extra shot for the Matchplay.

Personally, I wish everyone who witnesses this kind of thing or the ridiculous 8 putts from 10 feet or whatever, should make a complaint to their handicap committee. I would love to see every one of these people kicked out of their clubs. It just ruins the fun for everyone else. I take pride in behaving properly and following the rules as best I can. I don't understand how you could fiddle with your handicap like that, win by one shot and then go home with any sense of accomplishment....

Hobart

Swinging Looney wrote: »

I understood that as always being the case. Asking what club is advice. As is asking if the trees behind the green will shelter it from the wind a bit is advice. Asking if I should tee it up a little higher with my driver is advice.

Asking yardages or positions of flags, bunkers, rough, water, etc, etc, is nothing more than requesting a statement of fact.

I specifically worded my reply to reflect the change. "What do you think the distance is to the hole, green, bunker etc..."? previously would have be regarded as advice, and in breach of rule 8.1, that is no longer the case (or certainly is no longer the case in a non-team event).

Licksy wrote: »

<snip>
• bending an interfering branch with the hands, a leg or the body in taking a stance when the stance could have been taken without bending the branch. (Revised)

The last line here is kinda the key - people will often go over and above what is necessary (fair) to take the stance, and as you see above, once you take your stance, you can't move a branch out of the way with your hand.
You are allowed to back into the trees to take your stance, even allowed to break branches as long as it is a consequence of fairly taking the stance and as long as it was the only way/least obtrusive way of getting in there in the first place.

Good post Licksy, and I have to admit, I didn't know that. So therfore it must be the line along which the least amount of disturbance is necessary.

eunified61

I dont want to sound like the perfect golfer , I read some of the Rule book A golfer I played with early on told me as a general rule when you leave the fairway you take your punishment if you can hit it sideways hit it ,play it as it lies and you wont break any rules. A different thing happened to me yesterday,was playing with a man I didn't know firstly,secondly was annoyed by a group waiting who were talking and laughing as I teed off,went 50 yards right.This man was a beginner eyesight not great he had taken off his glasses, anyway he had lost a ball taken four shots and I had hit my second onto the fairway (long. story)
A player on another hole played onto our fairway I played on the green my partner played on and we putted next the player who landed on our fairway shouted that my partner had played his ball he said he didn't think so the man was shouting so loud I picked up and went on to the next hole. On examination it turned out he had played the wrong ball .Anyway we crossed paths with the player again and he informed us that we shouldn't be playing a "Gentlemans" game .maybe he's right

Goodluck2me

Licksy wrote: »

. Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:

What is the penalty for people breaking those rules?

eunified61

looked up a site called TEN BASICS OF RULES AND ETIQUETTE something like this should be typed up and handed to every member new member and green fee player on a course

PhilipMarlowe

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE: (13)
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

Mister Sifter

eunified61 wrote: »

looked up a site called TEN BASICS OF RULES AND ETIQUETTE something like this should be typed up and handed to every member new member and green fee player on a course

I'm not too fussed what players do in practice rounds. Anyone playing in a competition should know the basics though. I don't think enough golfers do them. I agree, i'd like to see clubs promote the basic rules more.

? Ambguity? And yet you pulled up some bloke on it? Remember, advantage only comes into it with a drop. What did this chap say?

Stockdam - he took a penalty drop in the end and was happy that we'd pointed it out as he wasn't aware of the rule. The other guy in the group was his mate and he backed up the rule.