Anybody use Daniels VDOT?

papamike

Hi,
I'm relatively new to running and am currently training for the half marathon in the Phoenix park in September. I came across a website that mentioned Jack Daniels VDOT values and accompanying training paces.

I entered in my most recent 5k race time and it gave predictions of what I should do for other race distances and I was amazed to see that it was only out by a few seconds for my most recent 3k, 5 mile and 10k race times. It also predicted a 1:40 half marathon which is right about my goal for September:D.

It also gives your ideal training paces for your different runs - easy, threshold, interval etc, but the times it is recommending for me are a good bit slower than what I am currently training to. For example it recommended 9:17/mile for easy runs but I'd be doing 8:20-8:30/mile for these. Also I try to run my 400s in 1:20 - 1:25 but it suggests 1:51 which I would think was way too slow.

Has anybody used VDOT paces and what do they think? The website does mention training too hard could lead to injury which is a concern as for years I always seemed to be injured when I played rugby but since giving that up and starting running the injuries have decreased dramatically. It could be a good experiment to try out for the winter once the half marathon is done, to train to these VDOT paces and map progress.

Thanks

Krusty_Clown

Nope, but use McMillan's Race Calculator all the time.
Link here.

Sounds like it does exactly the same thing as yours.
Wonder if the numbers compare though..

*Edit*: Yes, pretty similar. McMillan has a nicer interface though (than the one I found on the web).

papamike

Just had a look at McMillan Calculator and the times it produces for the 5mile and 10k were very similar to the Daniels but it said I should be quicker for the 3k by 15 seconds. Also predicted a 1:40 half marathon so I'm under a bit of pressure now;)

The training paces McMillan suggested for the speed work were a little quicker - 400s in 1:33 - 1:37 but the easy runs were suggesting 8:36 - 9:06/mile for easy runs and 9:36 - 10:06/mile for the recovery runs!

Overall quite similar to the Daniels so looks like I need to slow up on alll my interval, easy and recovery runs which seems strange as I thought I'd need to be working harder to get fitter and faster. Is this normal?

Link to where I got the VDOT values is http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

Krusty_Clown

Just to add that I used to train without any kind of pace guidance or measurement (for half-marathons), so I was always pretty much running at my own limits.

Since I started paying more attention to pace and heart-rate, I dropped my training speed for marathon training long runs. Now my speed is up to where it was back when I was always running to my limits, however, my heart rate average has dropped by about 15-20bpm (~160 bpm down to ~145 bpm) and the pace which used to be at my limits is now a comfortable running pace.

This took about 5/6 months, however, I train a lot more for the marathon than I did for the half-marathons.

cfitz

papamike wrote: »

Just had a look at McMillan Calculator and the times it produces for the 5mile and 10k were very similar to the Daniels but it said I should be quicker for the 3k by 15 seconds. Also predicted a 1:40 half marathon so I'm under a bit of pressure now;)

The training paces McMillan suggested for the speed work were a little quicker - 400s in 1:33 - 1:37 but the easy runs were suggesting 8:36 - 9:06/mile for easy runs and 9:36 - 10:06/mile for the recovery runs!

Overall quite similar to the Daniels so looks like I need to slow up on alll my interval, easy and recovery runs which seems strange as I thought I'd need to be working harder to get fitter and faster. Is this normal?

Link to where I got the VDOT values is http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

It's possible that your target times are too slow rather than the pace that you train at being too fast.

Racing Flat

papamike wrote: »

Just had a look at McMillan Calculator and the times it produces for the 5mile and 10k were very similar to the Daniels but it said I should be quicker for the 3k by 15 seconds. Also predicted a 1:40 half marathon so I'm under a bit of pressure now;)

The training paces McMillan suggested for the speed work were a little quicker - 400s in 1:33 - 1:37 but the easy runs were suggesting 8:36 - 9:06/mile for easy runs and 9:36 - 10:06/mile for the recovery runs!

Overall quite similar to the Daniels so looks like I need to slow up on alll my interval, easy and recovery runs which seems strange as I thought I'd need to be working harder to get fitter and faster. Is this normal?

Link to where I got the VDOT values is http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

The Mcmillan training times seem better. 1.51 for your 400s would be close enough to your predicted half marathon pace which I would think is too slow. Also the faster range for the easy runs is close enough to your own easy run pace. Daniels reckons that people do their intervals too fast, and he's probably right in relation to fellows training for 5k and above, but 1.51 seems too slow to me. IMO people need to do the easy days easier and the hard days harder compared to what they usually do - it's very esy to do everything at moderate intensity so easy days are too hard and hard days too easy...

If you are training for a half marathon, I would suggest 3 key sessions a week:

- an interval session (to improve your VO2 max) at faster than race pace. I would make these long intervals, seeing as the half is a relatively long race. 6-8 x 800 (at 5k race pace), or 4-6 x 1k (at 5mile race pace), or 3-4 x 1mile (at 10k pace);

- a tempo run (to improve your lactate threshold, probably most important factor for half marathon) of 20-40mins at 10mile to half marathon pace

- an overdistance/long run, e.g. a 15miler at easy pace, whatever feels nice and relaxed on the day

Added to this 2 or 3 easy runs up to an hour or so would make this a very nice programme. Also, as the half in the Park is quite hilly, I'd be doing some of the tempo runs, long runs and maybe even the interval sessions on hilly routes occasionally.

Best of luck.

papamike

CFitz, apologies, but can you explain a bit more what you mean as I don't fully understand.

Do you mean my target times for races are too slow?

Racing Flat

papamike wrote: »

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

NB - I just inputted a 10k time onto this site. It seemed to predict times a fair bit slower than I can do, and when I looked closer it had predicted me to do the inputted time plus 30secs for a 10k! So perhaps there's an error with the calculations which may explain the slow interval times prescribed. Or else he assumes everyone lies about their times:P.

Tried a few more times - there's defintiely a problem with that site - stick with mcmillan for now or www.runningforfitness.org

cfitz

papamike wrote: »

CFitz, apologies, but can you explain a bit more what you mean as I don't fully understand.

Do you mean my target times for races are too slow?

Well I don't know whether your target times are too slow or not. But if you can train at a faster pace than suggested by Daniels without ill effects then perhaps it is because your target time is well within your capabilities.

I think most people are capable of training a lot harder than they actually do. This may or may not apply to you. So often times it might be possible to increase the intensity/quantity of some sessions without dropping the intensity/quantity of any of your other sessions.

papamike

Thanks for the advice Racing Flat, I'm currently trying to follow a beginners training plan from the 'Cool Running' website and its now that I'm getting into some of the science behind efficient training.

Current plan
I am currently training 4-5 days a week and it generally consists of
- Monday: Rest
- Tuesday: Interval session, this week was 3 x 1mile and average was 6:50/mile, last week was 6x400 @ 1:25
- Wednesday: easy run between 3-5 miles
- Thursday: either a fartlek or tempo run over between 3-5 miles
- Friday: Rest
- Saturday:
- Sunday: Long slow run, 9 miles this weekend but have a 10k race on Sat so not sure. This will increase to 12miles, 2 weeks prior to the half marathon.

I have a few races lined up soon- 10k this weekend as part of a relay triathlon, the 10 mile in the Park the following week and an 8 mile club race at the end of August.

From your advice it looks like I need to lengthen my midweek tempo/fartlek run and increase the mileage on my weekend long run. I've only recently started long runs, 6 mile was my longest run up to 3 weeks ago so 15 could be stretch for now. I also need to do longer intervals as 400s probably too short and I need to increase the mileage my other weekly runs. I live in the midlands so decent hills are hard to come by on the routes I train on but will ask around to see if there are alternative routes.

Great advice though, much appreciated.

papamike

cfitz wrote: »

Well I don't know whether your target times are too slow or not. But if you can train at a faster pace than suggested by Daniels without ill effects then perhaps it is because your target time is well within your capabilities.

I think most people are capable of training a lot harder than they actually do. This may or may not apply to you. So often times it might be possible to increase the intensity/quantity of some sessions without dropping the intensity/quantity of any of your other sessions.

Thanks CFitz,
I haven't had any ill effects so far training as I currently am so perhaps i'm doing ok. A concern was that I may be training too hard for now and liable to injury in a few weeks/months and I've spent enough time and money on physios over the years.

It seems that the calculations on this website could well be a bit out so I will use McMillans and see how that goes.

cfitz

papamike wrote: »

Thanks CFitz,
I haven't had any ill effects so far training as I currently am so perhaps i'm doing ok. A concern was that I may be training too hard for now and liable to injury in a few weeks/months and I've spent enough time and money on physios over the years.

It seems that the calculations on this website could well be a bit out so I will use McMillans and see how that goes.

Well it is very important to avoid injuries, possibly moreso as a beginner, so make sure you 'listen to your body' as they say.

It depends on what you are training for, but from a general distance running point of view I think you would be better off training more often rather than increasing the distance of your long run.

I think Greg McMillan knows his stuff - as far as I know he does personal coaching by email if you pay him a good bit of money.

papamike

cfitz wrote: »

Well it is very important to avoid injuries, possibly moreso as a beginner, so make sure you 'listen to your body' as they say.

It depends on what you are training for, but from a general distance running point of view I think you would be better off training more often rather than increasing the distance of your long run.

I think Greg McMillan knows his stuff - as far as I know he does personal coaching by email if you pay him a good bit of money.

I started running to keep reasonably fit after giving up rugby in addition to a few drunken challenges amongst friends for the likes of the BUPA 10k etc, but like plenty before me I'm really getting into it and now want to run faster in addition to complete a few of the longer races. I'm never going to be winnning any races but to better my personal times is what its all about.

Not sure about doing a full marathon as Mrs Papamike thinks I'm nuts enough doing a half but I've managed to get her out training for a 5k so even she is getting a bit obsessed:D:D.

2Scoops

J Daniel's VDOT isn't perfect but it's a great tool if you haven't got access to more accurate stuff. He says himself it's not ideal, you need to modify it based on your own experience. I heard from many athletes that his recommended easy runs are too slow, but that's only a minor thing.

His book is excellent btw (Daniel's Running Formula).