Commerce vs BESS

ciaranajl

I know most of your first thoughts will probably be, "here we go again". I already looked over some threads separately dealing with the two courses, but I wanted to get some feedback from students of either course (or simply students of the college) who have views on which one is better.

Commerce is #1 and BESS is #2 on my CAO form.

My opinions on both:

Commerce, I believe, is better in a way because it is 18 hours a week rather than BESS's 13 hours and it is only three years long, whereas BESS is four years. It almost seems like with BESS they try to spread it over four years for the sake of abiding by their four-year degree rule.

BESS is more suited to what I'm looking for in a degree, though. It has more of a mix. Everyone I talk to says that studying business is an utter waste of time. I've been recommended - and I agree with these recommendations - that, given the current ever-changing economic climate, studying sociology/psychology or economics (my third choice is TSM economics/psych) is very worthwhile. Plus I'd like to study French with the course and possibly go on an erasmus (if even just for a term). Another con regarding the Commerce course is all the numbers. I'm not a fan of accounting, whatsoever, and the only career opportunity listed for the course that mildly interests me is banking/finance (I'd then hope to use this capital to set up my own business).

Anyway, aside from that, the more important thing for me is the social aspect of each college - after all, you're spending the next three/four years of your life there. How do the colleges compare?

Would appreciate some feedback on this if you get a chance. Thanks a lot.

(PS, if you're wondering why I'm bothering to still talk about BESS even though Commerce usually requires fewer points -- it's because I might not make UCD B3 maths requirement for reasons of not trying hard -- it was my "seventh" subject -- rather than lack of ability. That sounds cocky, but needed to throw it in in case someone says "don't do commerce if you're bad at maths!")

GusherING

I did neither of these courses but here's my two cents on your post.

Don't choose a course because of how many hours it has per week. Arts and Law often have even less than 12 hours but the workload for your assignments will probably double or treble that figure. So realise that any course, whatever its hours, will require hard work if you wish to do well in it.

Secondly, college shouldn't be a chore (ideally!), so do the course you want to do. If BESS is more up your street, then go for it! I know far too many people who wanted to do commerce because they thought it was cool (but had seemingly little interest), didn't get the points and then settled for an Arts course in Economics because they thought it would ultimately resemble a B.Comm on their CV. That's not a good way to enjoying college and being successful at it.

Finally, if commerce has lower points than BESS, then even if you get the points for BESS, the order of your CAO will rule out any opportunity you have of getting into BESS. Don't try to predict the CAO, put your courses in order of preference!

steoucd

Hi, I just completed my 3 year Commerce degree this year and I can't recommend it enough. I had a great time and think it was the perfect choice for me. I hadn't really considered the BESS cos I felt the Social Sciences aspect wasn't for me and also because the facilities in Quinn School are much more up to date. The Commerce course (along with its equivalents in DCU and NUI Galway) is very geared towards Action Learning with lots of group projects, presentations and report writing. I got the impression that BESS had more essays (but I may be wrong) and my feeling was when am I ever going to need to write an essay in my career.

Having completed the three years I am now completely comfortable doing presentations to groups of all sizes, including those filled with complete strangers. I have also learned tons about working in groups (especially how to handle issues which may arise) and writing reports.

Then there's the laptop ownership thing which means laptops can be integrated into the classes as everybody must have one. This is another thing I think is important for future prospects (you learn to use Excel, Frontpage & Access).

ciaranajl wrote: »

BESS is more suited to what I'm looking for in a degree, though. It has more of a mix. Everyone I talk to says that studying business is an utter waste of time. I've been recommended - and I agree with these recommendations - that, given the current ever-changing economic climate, studying sociology/psychology or economics (my third choice is TSM economics/psych) is very worthwhile.

I don't see why anyone will say studying business is a waste of time unless they're studying it the wrong way (ie. too much focus on exams & essays rather than Action Learning).

Also in UCD if you are interested in taking some Sociology/Psychology or extra modules in Economics you have the option to do so through the UCD New Horizons Electives system. I can go into this further if you like.

ciaranajl wrote: »

Plus I'd like to study French with the course and possibly go on an erasmus (if even just for a term).

Again French can be done through Horizons.

International Study opportunities are available in the second semester of second year. Most students who wish to go away can do so (you just have to get okay grades in first year). You choose on a CAO like form between universities in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong and across Europe. Then places are allocated based on first year results (so if you really want Canada or Australia then put some effort in in first year).

ciaranajl wrote: »

Another con regarding the Commerce course is all the numbers. I'm not a fan of accounting, whatsoever, and the only career opportunity listed for the course that mildly interests me is banking/finance (I'd then hope to use this capital to set up my own business).

Most people who come in hating Accounting (including me) manage to survive the three or four modules which you must do. Some even then decide to choose it in final year as their core option citing better job opportunities as their reason. Others choose one of the other options (i.e. Marketing, Management, Banking & Finance etc.) and either continue education in that field by pursuing a Masters or go into work with mostly multinational firms. The career opportunities listed in the prospectus are only the tip of the iceberg based on what I've seen.

As for starting your own business I really feel that Commerce helps with this too as you'll have a basic understanding of ALL aspects of the business INCLUDING Accounting (which is very important). You'll also have a vast network of contacts who might be able to help you out and who will have specialised in different areas (i.e. an accountant, a marketer etc.)

ciaranajl wrote: »

Anyway, aside from that, the more important thing for me is the social aspect of each college - after all, you're spending the next three/four years of your life there. How do the colleges compare?

This is where I feel Commerce was great. In the first two years the 270 or so students are split into 6 groups of about 45. You are then in the same classes as those people all the time (except for electives). Many of the classes are small groups to just that group of 45 so you'll be working together in groups, presenting to each other and get to know everyone really well. There are loads of class nights out and you'll find many of your good college friends are in your class. These people will remain friends after graduation and might even be business partners as mentioned above.

Hope this helps, I posted lots more info on the course here. Any questions let me know,

Stephen

Stabshauptmann

Fair play for reading the old threads, a good work ethic like that will get you far. Theres no real point repeating what Ive said before. Basically, BESS is more academic (broad and flexible) and Commerce is a better practical degree (will help you do a good job in your chosen field): Better resources, better experience and better specialisation.

One should also consider the culture of the uni in general to see if its for you, pick somewhere you'll be happy for the next 3/4 years

Bartronilic

Em you do many presentations and group projects in BESS. You have broader choice. A 4 year degree is better (more time in college?) And socially, I know people who have been in same year in commerce and never even seen some people becuase they are split up. Being split into smaller classes doesnt mean anything, its like being in school. In BESS you meet new people all the time and in 1st and 2nd year use the same lecture hall all the time so you get to know people easily. I can't say that either course is better socially because I amn't in Commerce but just read many of the threads to see that Trinity is better socially (smaller college). Also you can do erasmus in BESS and go to Australia, China, Japan, USA, Canada, Sweden, Holland etc.

Also you have so much choice in BESS that you can avoid Accounting altogether and do Finance. There is also Broad Cirriculum where you can do psychology, film studies.

A 4 Year Course is normal in most colleges and makes it easier to do well and redeem yourself.

Stabshauptmann

Bartronilic wrote: »

Em you do many presentations and group projects in BESS.

But nowhere near as many as commerce

Being split into smaller classes doesnt mean anything, its like being in school.

Complete cock, the biggest gripe with arts is the huge size of classes

Also you can do erasmus in BESS and go to Australia, China, Japan, USA, Canada, Sweden, Holland etc.

You can do that in commerce too

Also you have so much choice in BESS that you can avoid Accounting altogether and do Finance. There is also Broad Cirriculum where you can do psychology, film studies.

Employers value specialisation. Like I said, academic vs practical

ciaranajl

Yeah, I've seen the BESS lecture hall and it doesn't look like it's very easy to socialise. I admit that I'd like to be able to have opportunities to meet more than just the same 45 people, but it seems like in small classes it would be easier to socialise.

Stabshauptmann

In commerce you have some subjects that are in the big theatres but the majority are in small class groups. In final year depending on your subject choices you can be in with totally new people.

The main advantage of UCD over TCD when it comes to socialising is societies. We have more, they're bigger on average and they're better.

Bartronilic

How do you know the societies are "better". How does bigger societies even mean theyre better. Employers like people who make it onto committees of societies and you have a better chance of doing that in TCD where there are smaller societies.

Think of it this way, UCD is a bigger college so theres more chance that people will be there with people from school and that almost always leads to school cliques. In BESS EVERYONE KNOWS EVERYONE or at least knows OF everyone, and the people who aren't into that have tons of friends outside of BESS. You are split into smaller classes for tutorials and you aren't with the SAME 45 people for 3 years straight.

My year of BESS has had class trips, loadsa parties, free pizza days etc throughout all the years. About 4 of my friends in commerce tell me that once you hit 2nd year nobody is into the whole socialising with classmates because 2nd year counts towards your degree.

You do ALOT of presentations and yes employers like specialisation which is why you can SPECIALISE in BESS all you like.

To the guy who said BESS is bad socially because it has a big lecture hall like Arts. You know nothing about BESS. Arts people change lecture halls all the time. BESS is famous for people making friends based on where they SIT in the lecture hall (righties vs lefties). Also everyone makes friends in tutorials.

Go ahead do commerce and watch 45 people in your class already know each other from french college, enjoy working 60 hour weeks while some of your school friends are still in college in bed at 11 maybe living on campus, enjoy the concrete metropolis that is UCD and your 8 bus ride commute. It seems your heart is already set on Commerce, dont diss BESS when you obviously know nothing about it.

ALSO you can do a business and economics degree, and an economics degree from Trinity is quite liked.

Oh and to the "academic vs practical" man. you obviously know NOTHING about BESS so dont say waht I am saying is a load of cock.

Young Siward

Bartronilic wrote: »

Go ahead do commerce and watch 45 people in your class already know each other from french college, enjoy working 60 hour weeks while some of your school friends are still in college in bed at 11 maybe living on campus, enjoy the concrete metropolis that is UCD and your 8 bus ride commute. It seems your heart is already set on Commerce, dont diss BESS when you obviously know nothing about it.

ALSO you can do a business and economics degree, and an economics degree from Trinity is quite liked.

Oh and to the "academic vs practical" man. you obviously know NOTHING about BESS so dont say waht I am saying is a load of cock.

Calm down, it's as if you're trying initiate someone into a cult. There's no question BESS is a good degree to get, one of my mates is a graduate this year and the world seems to be his oyster. Fair play.

The Economics degree from Trinity is quite well regarded, even if the department isn't quite as good as UCD's.

Commerce has it's strengths as well in the means of the course delivery, it's got quite a good environment (although I speak as a tutor rather than a student).

Stabshauptmann

Bartronilic wrote: »

Oh and to the "academic vs practical" man. you obviously know NOTHING about BESS so dont say waht I am saying is a load of cock.

load of cock :P


Calm down, deep breath; frankie says...?

Stabshauptmann

Bartronilic wrote: »

How do you know the societies are "better".

Because I joined as many TCD societies as I have UCD ones, and UCD societies tend to win national society of the year quite often from what Ive heard (though googling isnt giving me much)

How does bigger societies even mean theyre better.

Reread my post and then you wont make mistakes like this, I mentioned three characteristics of UCD societies. I didnt say what relationship existed between the three characteristics.

Employers like people who make it onto committees of societies and you have a better chance of doing that in TCD where there are smaller societies.

Your logic has a falling, surely employers would be more impressed by the prestige or size of said society?

Think of it this way, UCD is a bigger college so theres more chance that people will be there with people from school and that almost always leads to school cliques.

I didnt think this was the case, there were only 3 ppl in my class who went to the same school - and that didnt stop them socialising.

In BESS EVERYONE KNOWS EVERYONE or at least knows OF everyone, and the people who aren't into that have tons of friends outside of BESS. You are split into smaller classes for tutorials and you aren't with the SAME 45 people for 3 years straight.

You're not with the same 45 people for 3 years in commerce. I think its far better to be in a small group the majority of the time and a big lecture the rest of the time rather than the other way around.

My year of BESS has had class trips, loadsa parties, free pizza days etc throughout all the years. About 4 of my friends in commerce tell me that once you hit 2nd year nobody is into the whole socialising with classmates because 2nd year counts towards your degree.

2nd year was by far the most social of my degree, no contest. Some of the largest societies in UCD operate out of the Quinn school and Quinn courses are overly represented in the student union.

You do ALOT of presentations and yes employers like specialisation which is why you can SPECIALISE in BESS all you like.

Do you do an entire module on presentations? Do you have a presentation every week? I didnt say you didnt have presentations, I said commerce had more.

The modes in Commerce are very well designed, feel free to compare the Banking and Finance mode in the Bcomm to its BESS equivalent and report back.

To the guy who said BESS is bad socially because it has a big lecture hall like Arts. You know nothing about BESS. Arts people change lecture halls all the time.

I didnt say BESS was bad socially, nor did I say big lecture halls were bad, I said small class groups were better.

BESS is famous for people making friends based on where they SIT in the lecture hall (righties vs lefties). Also everyone makes friends in tutorials.

People make friends in toutorials, is it easier than in a big theatre? Perhaps the increased participation is good? Maybe having lots of small classes is a good thing? See where this is going?

Go ahead do commerce and watch 45 people in your class already know each other from french college, enjoy working 60 hour weeks while some of your school friends are still in college in bed at 11 maybe living on campus, enjoy the concrete metropolis that is UCD and your 8 bus ride commute. It seems your heart is already set on Commerce, dont diss BESS when you obviously know nothing about it.

What a load of cock.

ALSO you can do a business and economics degree, and an economics degree from Trinity is quite liked.

True, i wouldnt discount this option OP

Oh and to the "academic vs practical" man. you obviously know NOTHING about BESS so dont say waht I am saying is a load of cock.

BESS allows you to do a wider range of subjects, many of them of no practical use in business. Its geared more towards academic merit than practical business.

Bartronilic

Just for record in case anyone reads this, BESS is not bad socially, that Kaptain Redeye guy doesn't know because he doesn't do BESS. I meant "make friends in tutorials" if you can't make them in a lecture hall. Arts has bed reputation socially for many reasons, large lecture halls being just one of them. End of.

Économiste Monétaire

And the galactic battle of BESS vs. Commerce continues... Even though they're not interchangeable courses...

bhoy4life

Im doing BESS next year (if i get the points!) and i want to know what level of knowledge you need in business and economics? i'm really interested in it but i don't do either subject in school. Would i need to do a bit of work before i go into the course?

dyl10

Just to emphasis, studying a highly respected general business degree like Commerce or Bess is not a waste of time. Typically you have a lot of options at the end.

From speaking to someone who interviews for one of the big accountancy firms, being a Bess graduate sets you in slightly better standing when it comes to their choice of interns to take on and that's purely on the basis of Bess being a 4 year with Comm being a 3.

Just go for whatever you feel best about, college is what you make it!

Stabshauptmann

dyl10 wrote: »

Just to emphasis, studying a highly respected general business degree like Commerce or Bess is not a waste of time. Typically you have a lot of options at the end.

From speaking to someone who interviews for one of the big accountancy firms, being a Bess graduate sets you in slightly better standing when it comes to their choice of interns to take on and that's purely on the basis of Bess being a 4 year with Comm being a 3.

Just go for whatever you feel best about, college is what you make it!

speaking as someone with a full list of what graduates have been hired by a certain big4 over the past 3 years and what degrees they have, I wouldnt put much stock in what you were told

Unless that person was thinking that they're more concerned with hiring people 2 years down the road than next year

dyl10

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

speaking as someone with a full list of what graduates have been hired by a certain big4 over the past 3 years and what degrees they have, I wouldnt put much stock in what you were told

Well seeing as the person was involved in interviewing and deciding which interns to take on and which to refuse for one of the big 4, perhaps different big 4 practices or external factors maybe changing/skewing your statistics e.g. the type of people coming out of those courses, the grades achieved in those degrees.

As far as this firm is concerned, there is very little to distinguish between the two degrees.

El Siglo

I'm not doing BESS or a BComm, so I'm pretty neutral on these degrees. No matter what course you do, you'll always make friends unless you're completely anal and socially retarded. UCD is a big place, intimidating etc... (i.e. induction day with 1,500 people is scary but you'll get used to the place), you'd still have great craic, TCD also looks a bit intimidating (i.e. looks like something from Harry Potter, but again don't judge a book by it's cover it's still a great place) and you'd have the craic. On the content of a course, well maybe (for the OP that is) doing a BESS degree is a bit better than commerce considering the way the economy has gone i.e. with the BComm you can do placement, but these might be drying up, also a broader education might be useful for doing a postgrad e.g. doing BESS you could do things like Environmental Policy, Social Science, Town Planning etc... now you can do these with a BComm (depends on the dep't) but if you've BESS you're already a bit more flexible, either degree will be a bonus in the postgraduate world. A lot of the arguments are really UCD vs. TCD, and at the end of the day, it doesn't matter (both have good aspects and sh*t aspects). Do what you're interested in because you'll be paying for it, don't mind any of this sh*te about nitty gritty details of the courses (most degrees now involves some sort of presentation ability), they're both brilliant courses to do, you'll have great craic, learn a load of useful and useless sh*t, but it'll be good. Considering the OP mentioned putting down a TSM in Economics and Psychology, BESS might be more up your street. Seriously though there's nothing worse than doing a degree which you end up hating, especially if fees are coming back, do what you like and feck everyone else!

anonymousman

Im still ****ed off at this Kaptain Redeye guy, he has no idea about the "social aspects" of BESS or trinity, as he doesnt do it or go there?? Dont be put off by his comments, anyone reading this.

Running Bing

Young Siward wrote: »

The Economics degree from Trinity is quite well regarded, even if the department isn't quite as good as UCD's.

Thats a very strange comment. I would've thought Trinity's economics dep was a fair bit stronger than UCD's.


As for the courses they're not really comparable.

Its pointless talking about which one gives you the better job opportunities or which is more intellectually stimulating because on those fronts its really what you make of it yourself.

Same story with the social scene....go to any college around the country and you'll find a good social scene. People make too much of this imo...we always hear these heated debates about where is better socially or who has the better societies, the bottom line is you will find very very little difference and certainly nothing worth basing your future on:rolleyes:

So instead of trying to debate which is better prospective students would be better getting a feeling for the different atmosphere of the colleges and asking specific questions about the individual courses.


I did BESS and I never regretted it for a second. One thing about Trinity is it gives you a real sense of confidence in your degree. The Trinity brand is pretty valuable and its got a pretty good reputation internationally. (not saying UCD is any different, Ive never studied there so dont know.)

abbevilleson

I was wondering what the BESS students would say in regards how a BESS degree stands up against the Commerce Intl in UCD.

I hope to study French and go on to have an international career but I can't help
Wk seeing whether I should have opted for chinese.

I realize Trinity has brilliant links abroad in 3rd year, especially french business schools in Paris and also has an excellent economics department, but it seems to me UCD has a greater emphasis on MIS/ICT. Also the option to study Chinese is interesting as it seems an important language for an international business career.

Im prepared to work hard and aim to achieve a first class honors no matter what I do but I was wondering whether te highly accredited UCD Business school will influence employers/ give me an edge or would the trinity brand be more influential?

Unquestionably, Smurfit Graduate Business School is excellent and well-accredited, I would hope to do a masters there after either undergraduate degree in Business Analytics or International Business or Digital Marketing.

RMD

I've talked to 2 lads before who work essentially as Graduate interviewers in HR departments of 2 very large companies, this is what I've been told repeatedly:

In Ireland as long as it's Trinity or UCD the university doesn't matter, they hold both in high regard it's more so about the degree. They consider both BESS and Commerce very good degrees, Commerce more practical as it offers a greater level of exemptions while placing a greater emphasis on technology plus real life situations (large amount of group work + presentations). That doesn't take from BESS, they still consider it 1 of the 2 top Irish business degrees (Commerce being the other), they just view it as more academic.

The point they really emphasized is their decision will be based on the individual more so than the degree. A 2.2 in Bess with little extra-curricular involvement has little chance of a job if they're up against a 2.1 Commerce involved in societies / clubs. Likewise a 2.1 in Commerce with no involvement means little in comparison to a 2.1 in Business (or economics or a joint major in both) who is involved in clubs / societies. Essentially their point is as long as you have a 2.1 in either you'll get a stand a chance at a job, their choice will come down to the individual not the degree.

The job prospects for Commerce & Chinese are amazing, it's a degree which has huge demand from employers with a small supply (only 100 graduates nationwide per year I think). Considering the huge growth of the Chinese economy that demand is going to grow even further. BESS offers brilliant links with French universities but this trip isn't guaranteed, it is down to your own performance. On the otherhand, Commerce & French involves a mandatory erasmus to France, the partner universities include "Grande Ecoles" (Top French universities / schools), including options in Paris and Lille.

Essentially my main point here is don't get too worried about which university, when you're sitting in a room with an interviewer sitting across from you he'll be assessing you and not the university you went too (assuming obviously it's a good one, which both TCD and UCD are.) Forget the rest of the bullshít rhetoric students of both will feed to you trying to sell their cource, they're offering a biased view unless they've done both courses. College is what you make of it, your job opportunities are what you make of yourself.

abbevilleson

RMD wrote: »

I've talked to 2 lads before who work essentially as Graduate interviewers in HR departments of 2 very large companies, this is what I've been told repeatedly:

In Ireland as long as it's Trinity or UCD the university doesn't matter, they hold both in high regard it's more so about the degree. They consider both BESS and Commerce very good degrees, Commerce more practical as it offers a greater level of exemptions while placing a greater emphasis on technology plus real life situations (large amount of group work + presentations). That doesn't take from BESS, they still consider it 1 of the 2 top Irish business degrees (Commerce being the other), they just view it as more academic.

The point they really emphasized is their decision will be based on the individual more so than the degree. A 2.2 in Bess with little extra-curricular involvement has little chance of a job if they're up against a 2.1 Commerce involved in societies / clubs. Likewise a 2.1 in Commerce with no involvement means little in comparison to a 2.1 in Business (or economics or a joint major in both) who is involved in clubs / societies. Essentially their point is as long as you have a 2.1 in either you'll get a stand a chance at a job, their choice will come down to the individual not the degree.

The job prospects for Commerce & Chinese are amazing, it's a degree which has huge demand from employers with a small supply (only 100 graduates nationwide per year I think). Considering the huge growth of the Chinese economy that demand is going to grow even further. BESS offers brilliant links with French universities but this trip isn't guaranteed, it is down to your own performance. On the otherhand, Commerce & French involves a mandatory erasmus to France, the partner universities include "Grande Ecoles" (Top French universities / schools), including options in Paris and Lille.

Essentially my main point here is don't get too worried about which university, when you're sitting in a room with an interviewer sitting across from you he'll be assessing you and not the university you went too (assuming obviously it's a good one, which both TCD and UCD are.) Forget the rest of the bullshít rhetoric students of both will feed to you trying to sell their cource, they're offering a biased view unless they've done both courses. College is what you make of it, your job opportunities are what you make of yourself.

Thanks so much for your reply. Out of all the the BESS and Commerce Threads, I have to say it was the most concise, helpful post I've seen and really cleared a few issues up for me.

As a Leaving cert student I've found it extremely difficult to decide on my degree while trying to study and worry I've made the wrong choice. I can't help wondering whether I've possibly made a mistake in choosing BESS, with a view of doing Business and Economics and an Erasmus in the HEC/ Science Po/ ESCP (hopefully putting a large empthasis on French). I'm willing to work hard and can't wait to get involved in all socities and extra - curriculars. I hope my French will be up to standard after BESS as I'm willing to spend summers/ Holidays improving my language skills.

However, I feel I may have made a mistake and should have opted for Commerce and Chinese in UCD due to the empthasis on technology e.g. eBusiness, ICT and MIS, the continous assesment and the numerous presentations/ teamwork projects.

I hated the literature element of French in UCD and so opted for Trinity's French department. I would still hope to do the Chinese language course in Trinity in the evenings and have some insight into the language. I know it's extremely difficult to learn and realize I'd need to spend a large amount of time working at it.

I would hope to work for Google, Apple, Twitter or some large multinational and I wonder whether they will accept me as willingly even with a non-tech background in BESS. Ultimately, I would love an international degree in Sales or Marketing. I love the look of the Smurfit MSc in eBusines and the Farmleigh Fellowship, Msc in Asian Business.

Final Question: Is Chinese, like I've mentioned above, vital to do Chinese/ International business or am I just getting caught up in the hype at the minute? I love French and have been studying it for 6 years. Ireland is the European base for many large internationals who are looking for "fluency in other European languages"??

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for your help.