BMW 320d - ASC + Brake + ABS Warning Lights (?)

kerryman87

Just got back from a quick drive on the motorway and as I arrived in home, my ASC, ABS and Handbrake warning light all lit up simultaneously. I had just gone over a speed bump though I doubt that was the cause. It was only a slight bump and I was going dead slow.

Anyway, the lights have remained on, even when I turn the engine off and on. I'm not sure what the cause is as I've only had the car a few weeks. Looked under the hood and it looks like the brake fluid might be empty - not sure because it was too dark to see. Would this cause all 3 lights to come on?

Any ideas?

Thanks

Seth Brundle

It could be a wheel sensor gone but you would need a diagnosis to be sure.

Sponge Bob

what year ??

kerryman87

It's a 2001 - the 136bhp model

Sponge Bob

Possibly broken or corroded brake tube finally went , known problem with them especially the rear ones, be bloody careful in the morning but its a €100 job in the right garage although you may as well do the two for €200 if thats what actually happened

see this special forum here

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=582346

kerryman87

I think you could be right spongebob. Thanks for the advice. I'll get a lift to work tomorrow to be on the safe side and call in to garage to see what the damage is

I was just out to the car again and the brakes do seem a bit softer. Would explain why the brake fluid has been drained as well. Just my luck to get a problem like this just after buying the car

Thanks again for the help!!

Gumbo

depending on where you are based, get it down to AC Cars just off the South Circular Road. main dealer work just not main dealer prices

they have all the equipment, tools, diagnostic etc etc.

01-4531433

Darragh29

Is there any brake fluid leaking onto the ground???

daveharnett

kerryman87 wrote: »

I think you could be right spongebob. Thanks for the advice. I'll get a lift to work tomorrow to be on the safe side and call in to garage to see what the damage is

Sooner rather than later i'd say kerryman. Brake fluid is known for eating paintwork, if it's left to sit.

kerryman87

Thanks for all the replies guys. I took the car to the garage and they connected it to the diagnnostics machine. Turns out it was a failed speed sensor. One of the mechanics put the car on the ramp and checked the plugs and connections as well to make sure these were not at fault. Afterwards I was told I would need a new speed sensor as it had failed. They ordered me a new one from BMW which would cost €130 and told me the overall cost of service (i.e. Diagnostic, Part and fitting) would be €250.

So I agreed. As I was driving away from the garage my ABS, ASC and Brake light all turned off. I drove a few miles and they remained off so I went back to the garage and cancelled the new part. I have driven over 200miles since with no problems so I reckon it was just dirt in one of the connections or something. The mechanic that looked at the car agreed that this may have been the problem.

Anyway, I went back today to pay for the diagnostics and the manager told me it would be €100. The diagnostics only took 20-25mins at the most so I can't see how it could be so expensive. The guy started saying how the diag. machine costs 14k and has to be updated every few months etc.

Is €100 a reasonable price for diagnostics. I rang BMW who said they would set a max. cost of €100 for diagnostics but if it took less time the price would be reduced.

robbie99

Not a very good diagnoses then seeing as the sensor had not actually failed. More likely the connection was loosened by the speed bump and the mechanic fiddling with it made it good again. Nothing worse than having to pay for a part which turns out to be unneccessary as well as the labour and incorrect diagnoses. Had this been the case then a trip to the small claims court to reclaim costs would have been justified.

In your case I think paying 25mins of their labour rate would be fair. They did actually end up fixing the car. I can't see how they have the neck to charge you the max diagnostic price for an incorrect diagnoses.

DublinDilbert

robbie99 wrote: »

More likely the connection was loosened by the speed bump and the mechanic fiddling with it made it good again

No automotive connector would be loosened by a speed bump, they are designed to stay together for the life of the car... and tested to very high vibration / shock levels.

kerryman87 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies guys. I took the car to the garage and they connected it to the diagnnostics machine. Turns out it was a failed speed sensor. One of the mechanics put the car on the ramp and checked the plugs and connections as well to make sure these were not at fault. Afterwards I was told I would need a new speed sensor as it had failed. They ordered me a new one from BMW which would cost €130 and told me the overall cost of service (i.e. Diagnostic, Part and fitting) would be €250.

So I agreed. As I was driving away from the garage my ABS, ASC and Brake light all turned off. I drove a few miles and they remained off so I went back to the garage and cancelled the new part. I have driven over 200miles since with no problems so I reckon it was just dirt in one of the connections or something. The mechanic that looked at the car agreed that this may have been the problem.

Anyway, I went back today to pay for the diagnostics and the manager told me it would be €100. The diagnostics only took 20-25mins at the most so I can't see how it could be so expensive. The guy started saying how the diag. machine costs 14k and has to be updated every few months etc.

Is €100 a reasonable price for diagnostics. I rang BMW who said they would set a max. cost of €100 for diagnostics but if it took less time the price would be reduced.

BMW would never set a max cost / time limit for diagnostic work. Also they will NEVER charge less than an hours labour for any job, even coding in a new instrument cluster which takes about 5 mins tops...

How do you know their mechanic only spent 25 mins on it? If he stripped apart the connectors in the system / cleaned, looked for wiring faults, checked wiring diagrams, done a couple of tests with a meter, before ordering in the new part, may of easily taken more 25 min.

Did you find out which speed sensor he diagnosed? so you can change it yourself if it goes again??

My guess, and its only a guess, is that the wire going to one of the speed sensors is broken, and when he went at it he moved the wire slightly and its back working again... eventually it will give up again.

€100 isn't massively over charging, if you have an E46 you should expect much bigger bills... Also €21 of that is VAT straight away.

Lord Nikon

Mmm, interesting. i have the same problem on my E39. Would the Haynes manual show me where this speed sensor is?

Mr.Diagnostic

kerryman87 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies guys. I took the car to the garage and they connected it to the diagnnostics machine. Turns out it was a failed speed sensor. One of the mechanics put the car on the ramp and checked the plugs and connections as well to make sure these were not at fault. Afterwards I was told I would need a new speed sensor as it had failed. They ordered me a new one from BMW which would cost €130 and told me the overall cost of service (i.e. Diagnostic, Part and fitting) would be €250.

So I agreed. As I was driving away from the garage my ABS, ASC and Brake light all turned off. I drove a few miles and they remained off so I went back to the garage and cancelled the new part. I have driven over 200miles since with no problems so I reckon it was just dirt in one of the connections or something. The mechanic that looked at the car agreed that this may have been the problem.

Anyway, I went back today to pay for the diagnostics and the manager told me it would be €100. The diagnostics only took 20-25mins at the most so I can't see how it could be so expensive. The guy started saying how the diag. machine costs 14k and has to be updated every few months etc.

Is €100 a reasonable price for diagnostics. I rang BMW who said they would set a max. cost of €100 for diagnostics but if it took less time the price would be reduced.

It is not possible for any diagnostic tool to tell that a speed sensor is faulty. What it will do is report a fault code that the signal from a particular speed sensor is out of limits or open circuit (not present).
In general most “techs” will read a fault code for a speed sensor and report that the sensor needs to be replaced. In some cases they will be correct and if so fitting a speed sensor will fix the problem. In other cases they will be wrong and the new sensor will not fix the problem.
In your case the tech has gone to the trouble of checking for bad connection etc. that is more than most techs will do. He has cleared the codes and the fault has not reoccurred. You are now convinced that the problem was just a bad connection. The point is that he did check the connections etc. If he had not you would have faced a bigger bill for a new sensor. There is a lot more he could have done to check the circuit but that could have cost you even more.
Was it worth €100? A cheap garage with a cheap scan tool would have charged you less for a code read and would have fitted a sensor. The end result would have been a bigger bill. So not so bad value.

The above is all based on the fault being fixed as it stands. I hope it is actually fixed and it may well be but there is a chance that it is not. There is a common issue on the E46 where a speed sensor fault is logged but the actual fault lies elsewhere. Were you told about this possible issue? Is the garage a BMW specialist? Is the garage a diagnostic specialist?

kerryman87

Thanks for all the replies. My problem with the garage is that they did check the wires and connections and afterwards still came back to me saying the sensor is faulty and needed to be replaced. The diagnostics did return an out of limit reading. Most likely it was simply a loose connection but the problem has not recurred so I have decided to let it be for the time being.

I have decided to pay the full €100 as I probably don't have much choice in the matter. I just feel they were trying to con me out of money from the second I walked in (I guess this is the case with most garages). When I arrived, I was initially told the brake pads needed replacing. Then they asked me to leave while they ran a diagnostics (would take up to an hour they said). I left and returned early and my car was already parked outside. Diagnostic would have taken 20mins max. as they was a car in before mine which the mechanic had to finish working on first. When I returned, the owner was intent on ordering the new sensor (at a total cost of €250). His mechanic then said he would check the wiring first. Again, I was told to go away and come back in an hour (they said it would take around 45mins). This time I decided to wait. The car was in and out in 10mins. I know if I had left, I would have been charged for an hours labour. Just shows how careful you have to be with some of these garages. I would normally go to my local mechanic who is honest and fair but in this case I was forced to go to my closest garage to where I work as I did not want to risk driving with a brake problem.

The cost the owner was making out just does not add up though:
Price of new sensor (incl VAT) = €130
Total cost of service (diagnostics, labour, sensor) = €250
That leaves a charge of €120 for diagnostics and labour

Price I was quoted for just doing diagnostics (no installation of new sensor) = €100
That leaves €20 for labour going by my original quote, so it is obvious that they are hiking the price since I didnt end up buying the part there.

I really think garages should be more up-front with their prices. I have been overcharged before on numerous occasions. In one garage I was charged €25 to check the alignment of my headlamps before I went for an NCT. This is a 5-minute job which just involves rolling a projector type piece of equipment in front of the car and flicking the headlights on. The same garage also tried to charge me €60 for jump-starting my car. The car was a 5-minute drive from the garage. I haggled with them and eventually got the price reduced to €30. Bunch of chancers. They will try and charge prices that they seemingly pluck out of the sky!

Darragh29

kerryman87 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. My problem with the garage is that they did check the wires and connections and afterwards still came back to me saying the sensor is faulty and needed to be replaced. The diagnostics did return an out of limit reading. Most likely it was simply a loose connection but the problem has not recurred so I have decided to let it be for the time being.

I have decided to pay the full €100 as I probably don't have much choice in the matter. I just feel they were trying to con me out of money from the second I walked in (I guess this is the case with most garages). When I arrived, I was initially told the brake pads needed replacing. Then they asked me to leave while they ran a diagnostics (would take up to an hour they said). I left and returned early and my car was already parked outside. Diagnostic would have taken 20mins max. as they was a car in before mine which the mechanic had to finish working on first. When I returned, the owner was intent on ordering the new sensor (at a total cost of €250). His mechanic then said he would check the wiring first. Again, I was told to go away and come back in an hour (they said it would take around 45mins). This time I decided to wait. The car was in and out in 10mins. I know if I had left, I would have been charged for an hours labour. Just shows how careful you have to be with some of these garages. I would normally go to my local mechanic who is honest and fair but in this case I was forced to go to my closest garage to where I work as I did not want to risk driving with a brake problem.

The cost the owner was making out just does not add up though:
Price of new sensor (incl VAT) = €130
Total cost of service (diagnostics, labour, sensor) = €250
That leaves a charge of €120 for diagnostics and labour

Price I was quoted for just doing diagnostics (no installation of new sensor) = €100
That leaves €20 for labour going by my original quote, so it is obvious that they are hiking the price since I didnt end up buying the part there.

I really think garages should be more up-front with their prices. I have been overcharged before on numerous occasions. In one garage I was charged €25 to check the alignment of my headlamps before I went for an NCT. This is a 5-minute job which just involves rolling a projector type piece of equipment in front of the car and flicking the headlights on. The same garage also tried to charge me €60 for jump-starting my car. The car was a 5-minute drive from the garage. I haggled with them and eventually got the price reduced to €30. Bunch of chancers. They will try and charge prices that they seemingly pluck out of the sky!

This guy demonstrates in a way that I cannot possibly do justice to by posting here, the reason why will I will not let BMW's into my garage. Whinging over a 25 Euro charge for aligniing headlamps because it is a 5 minute job. Has he considered the cost of the equipment used to do this, approximately 2000 Euro and also if it doesn't turn out to be a 5 minute job??? There is no such thing as a 5 minute job in a garage and any mechanic knows that. Also has he considered the overheads that a garage, like all businesses have to carry, for example the cost of the insurance cover that will pay out when he slips and claims???

Try haggling with a BMW dealership for 30 Euro off and see how far you get. Also, try demanding in a BMW garage that you stand around in the workshop looking over the mechanics shoulder and generally making a nuisence of yourself as you have said you have done. Honestly, this is what you are dealing with on most occasions when you get involved with a BMW. An owner who wants everyone to see him in an overpriced "prestige" car, who hasn't the money to go to BMW to get work done on it, so what does he do, scourge the independent garage owner because he know's the BMW dealer wouldn't take any messing from him.

Tell me of one other business that you would go into and haggle for 30 Euro off???

ARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Darragh29

DublinDilbert wrote: »

How do you know their mechanic only spent 25 mins on it? If he stripped apart the connectors in the system / cleaned, looked for wiring faults, checked wiring diagrams, done a couple of tests with a meter, before ordering in the new part, may of easily taken more 25 min.

The only real way of testing this component is with an oscilloscope and looking at the output signal step function. This will show the state of the signal being returned by the sensor and if there are any irregular peaks or distortions in the signal/step function. It is these anomalies in the AC signal that the ECU will detect, which will cause a fault code to be generated.

When your doing this type of diagnostics, after you have done basic checks like connectivity checks, etc and are then looking at small signal AC waveforms, you are starting to leave the motor technician field and going into an electronic engineering field. Unfortunately people seem to think that you plug a diagnostics system into the vehicle and the magical mobile geney will come out of the computer and give you all the answers. The diagnostics only gives you the starting point...

Lord Nikon

Darragh29 wrote: »

This guy demonstrates in a way that I cannot possibly do justice to by posting here, the reason why will I will not let BMW's into my garage. Whinging over a 25 Euro charge for aligniing headlamps because it is a 5 minute job. Has he considered the cost of the equipment used to do this, approximately 2000 Euro and also if it doesn't turn out to be a 5 minute job??? There is no such thing as a 5 minute job in a garage and any mechanic knows that. Also has he considered the overheads that a garage, like all businesses have to carry, for example the cost of the insurance cover that will pay out when he slips and claims???

Try haggling with a BMW dealership for 30 Euro off and see how far you get. Also, try demanding in a BMW garage that you stand around in the workshop looking over the mechanics shoulder and generally making a nuisence of yourself as you have said you have done. Honestly, this is what you are dealing with on most occasions when you get involved with a BMW. An owner who wants everyone to see him in an overpriced "prestige" car, who hasn't the money to go to BMW to get work done on it, so what does he do, scourge the independent garage owner because he know's the BMW dealer wouldn't take any messing from him.

Tell me of one other business that you would go into and haggle for 30 Euro off???

ARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

You may be the exception to the rule, but there are Indy's out there that WILL charge a bit more than they have to. Most cases they feel like their doing you a favour, but they still make a nice profit.

Zube

neuromancer wrote: »

You may be the exception to the rule, but there are Indy's out there that WILL charge a bit more than they have to. Most cases they feel like their doing you a favour, but they still make a nice profit.

This is about the fourth time this week I've seen someone say that garages making a profit means they are charging more than they have to. Actually, other posters used words like "rip-off" and "thieves".

If garages didn't make a profit, there would be no garages!

craichoe

Darragh29 wrote: »

This guy demonstrates in a way that I cannot possibly do justice to by posting here, the reason why will I will not let BMW's into my garage. Whinging over a 25 Euro charge for aligniing headlamps because it is a 5 minute job. Has he considered the cost of the equipment used to do this, approximately 2000 Euro and also if it doesn't turn out to be a 5 minute job??? There is no such thing as a 5 minute job in a garage and any mechanic knows that. Also has he considered the overheads that a garage, like all businesses have to carry, for example the cost of the insurance cover that will pay out when he slips and claims???

Try haggling with a BMW dealership for 30 Euro off and see how far you get. Also, try demanding in a BMW garage that you stand around in the workshop looking over the mechanics shoulder and generally making a nuisence of yourself as you have said you have done. Honestly, this is what you are dealing with on most occasions when you get involved with a BMW. An owner who wants everyone to see him in an overpriced "prestige" car, who hasn't the money to go to BMW to get work done on it, so what does he do, scourge the independent garage owner because he know's the BMW dealer wouldn't take any messing from him.

Tell me of one other business that you would go into and haggle for 30 Euro off???

ARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Blah blah blah ... at the end of the day he's a customer. I got a diamond ring made and they asked if i wanted to watch it being made.

So please think before banging on about the customer that is a "nuisance" and asks for a discount, he/she are paying your wages and they have every right to haggle over price.

30 Euro ?

An electronics store, a garage, a jewellers, the tax office, plumber, carpenter, brick layer.... jesus i could go on and on

Darragh29

neuromancer wrote: »

You may be the exception to the rule, but there are Indy's out there that WILL charge a bit more than they have to. Most cases they feel like their doing you a favour, but they still make a nice profit.

Here's the precidiment you are in with people like the OP. Firstly, they want to know down to the cent how much a particular job or task is going to cost. The nature of car maintenance is that sometimes jobs go according to plan and other times things take longer than expected for many reasons, usually technical. It's not like a shop where there is a fixed price on the product and you pay the price or you go looking for the same product for less in another location. I know a lot of mechanics and indy owners and I have to say from daily discussions that we all appear to have the same problems that I have when it comes to customers not paying an invoice that is given to them, or arguing over the cost of a particular job. In the case at hand, the OP just doesn't want to spend money to have the problem resolved. If the OP was quoted 250 Euro and the cost of the part was 130 Euro (let's assume for the minute that these prices are ex VAT, which they are probably not), then the garage quoting him is handling this transaction at gross profit margin of 48%. A garage doing a job at 48% is losing money, because you need to be at or around 60% gross margin to carry the overheads. The discount on the part is pretty irrelevant at a pathethic 10% or 13 Euro, which wouldn't even cover the cost of ordering it and collecting it.

Here's another thing you get with BMW drivers. "If I get the part will you for fit for me". So, the retail cost of the part is 130 Euro. I get a trade discount of 10%, worth 13 Euro on a part retailing at 130 Euro which as I said above, doesn't cover the cost of acquiring the part. The retailer doesn't get a discount, so where is the benefit in the retailer buying the part himself??? He pays 130 Euro for it no matter who pays for it, but the ever paranoid BMW driver thinks he is getting it for less if he buys it himself???

Darragh29

Zube wrote: »

This is about the fourth time this week I've seen someone say that garages making a profit means they are charging more than they have to. Actually, other posters used words like "rip-off" and "thieves".

If garages didn't make a profit, there would be no garages!

The rip off merchants in the trade are main dealers. The cost of part's in this country is something that should be on Primeline. There is no competition between main dealers, they are all operating a fixed price cartell when it comes to main dealer parts.

DublinDilbert

Darragh29 wrote: »

The rip off merchants in the trade are main dealers. The cost of part's in this country is something that should be on Primeline. There is no competition between main dealers, they are all operating a fixed price cartell when it comes to main dealer parts.

That is one thing i won't dispute... I was working on solving a project on a vehicle alarm system, we didn't make the alarm system as such, but that to communicate with it. I bought one of the k-line alarm sounders from a dealer here in Dublin, it cost €130 (ex Vat), one of my colleagues in Germany bought the same part from the deal ship it cost €40 (ex Vat), i won't mention the brand, but it's not a German one.

One exception i believe is BMW, it has unified pricing world wide, its not cheap, but it doesn't vary huge amounts. If you look at the prices on "Real OEM", they are in dollars and a few years out of date, but they do roughly equate to the euro amount now.

I've always found BMW prices hit & miss, for example i was fixing a friends E36, needed a new ignition barrel, Ordered the barrel on a Monday morning (based on VIN), it was made to match the vehicle keys and shipped from Germany, arrived Thursday, the total price was €50! which isn't bad. But you could go into the dealer to get a silly piece of plastic and it costs you near the same amount!

Balfa

I'm probably a little late to this thread, but out of interest, what colour were the lights when they appeared on the dash?

For future reference, If they were yellow and not red, it's the manufacturers way of telling you something's up, but it's still safe to drive the car. Any time I get a yellow light, I'll drive another while before considering taking it to get looked at.

Also, the BMW owners manual is pretty detailed about exactly what each colour of each light means. That's where I would've started when lights come on. Based on what it says might be wrong, I'll judge whether I continue to drive the car a few hundred miles or not and see if the problem just goes away.

kerryman87

@Balfa - The ASC and ABS lights came on Yellow and the Brake light was Red as usual. I don't think the colour indicated the severity of the problem though. The failed speed sensor has caused a whole lot more problems since. The speedometer fails to work. Incidently, any mileage I do while the speed sensor is broken is not clocked. I drove 150 miles today and only 10 of those miles were registered on the cars digital clock. I am taking the car in to have the sensor replaced on Monday or Tuesday though as I dont like driving with failed ABS and Traction Control.

Today I took the car to my local BMW dealer. (Aherns in Castleisland, Co. Kerry). I hope its ok to name them, because I think they done a fantastic job and at a reasonable price. The plugged the car into the diagnostics again, told me it would take maybe 15-20mins. Had coffee and biscuits inside while I waited. Then they called me over, told me it was just a speed sensor that required replacing and quoted me a price of €165 for the entire job. The breakdown was €96 for the part and €69 for diagnostics and labour. Was told it would take 20mins so decided to have more coffee while i waited. Then the mechanic came in to ask me where the anti-theft stud piece for my wheels was. I only bought the car a few weeks ago in Antrim and forgot to ask the dealer for this (DOH! ). Anyway, he searched the car for a while and eventually decided to try and replace the sensor without taking off the wheel. Waited in showroom for over an hour and eventually I was handed back the car. I was expecting to get a bigger bill but instead they apologised for delay (the sensor was rusted in place i think) and gave me my receipt. The mechanic also threw in the anti-theft unlocker in at no extra cost (they found one that fitted in the garage). The car and wheels were washed thoroughly as well before the car was returned to me.

So for €165 the BMW dealership:
-Diagnosed the problem
-Spent over 1.5hrs total working on the car
-Washed it
-Gave me a replacement anti-theft stud unlocker for free
-Plus i have the benefit of a genuine BMW service receipt to back it up

I originally tried to avoid dealerships because I thought they would rip me off. The original mechanic was charging €130 for the part alone. And €100 for diagnostics!!! In future i'm sticking to the BMW dealer.