Watersports Etiquette

BanzaiBk

Evening all,

After enjoying the recent threads on kitesurfing I've decided to add a new dimension with my photography. I live in Garretstown, Co. Cork where there is always some kind of action happening on the beaches so there's no problem there. The issue I'm having is I'm half afraid to just sit on the beach/wall and start making pictures whenever the mood takes me. I ventured down last night and felt a bit stupid/intimidated and took only 4 pictures (I know...).

For those of you who photograph these sports, do you ask the permission of the participants or do you shoot away? I know about model releases etc but I think it would be a bit bizarre calling a couple of lads out of the water to sign some paper. Am I mad?

Paulw

Why do you need them to sign a model release? You're in public property (the beach) and so are they. You would only need a model release if you wanted to use the photos for advertising or commercial purposes.

I've taken some shots at kite-surfing and have never asked permission, nor used model release forms. I've had enquiries about selling some of my images.

BanzaiBk

One slightly perturbed young man told me where to go last night, so I thought I had misjudged the importance of the release form. While I understand that I am free to take pictures, at the same time I don't want to be "harassing" people if you know what I mean. Thanks for the reply, I think I'll head down to the beach again tonight.

Paulw

Some people mind, and some don't mind.

Normally for big events and competitions, there would be a few photographers around. I can't say that I've ever had a problem or someone complaining about having their photo taken.

hunnymonster

I've never had any problems taking pics in Garretstown. If you're out that way on a nice day, it's worth heading over to Sandycove. There are some great ones of people diving off the slipway. I tend to be there for the swimmers but swimmers are not so interesting to photograph.

trishw78

If they're preturbed... Why not offer them a free print. Tell them you'll email them a copy of them surfing or what ever it is they're doing that way it might calm them down abit and maybe they won't be se upset if they see you shooting them in the future.

BanzaiBk

hunnymonster wrote: »

I've never had any problems taking pics in Garretstown. If you're out that way on a nice day, it's worth heading over to Sandycove. There are some great ones of people diving off the slipway. I tend to be there for the swimmers but swimmers are not so interesting to photograph.

Nice suggestion, I hadn't even considered Sandycove. Thanks.

trishw78 wrote: »

If they're preturbed... Why not offer them a free print. Tell them you'll email them a copy of them surfing or what ever it is they're doing that way it might calm them down abit and maybe they won't be se upset if they see you shooting them in the future.

That's a great idea, I was thinking along the same lines. I genuinely don't want to p!ss people off.

trishw78

I say a copy because ideally you want them to pay for anything else they might want to buy off you.

Calina

I've taken photographs of both landboarders and surfers in Garretstown with nary a problem. Knowing a couple of the guys down there I am surprised you got any hassle. I am not often down there, however and don't know all the guys. Anyone I have happened across on the beach down there has generally been really, really sound. I like them. Incidentally I believe you will also find kitesurfers on Coolmaine and on some of the east Cork beaches around Youghal as well. I also know one of my mates has photographs kitesurfers in Inchydoney on occasion too which, although stunning looking beach, wouldn't be my own favourite to kitesurf in right now.

In my experience, the kitesurfers I know don't generally mind having their photographs taken and they usually like it if you get a good photograph of them pulling a trick. I have never met a kitesurfer who didn't want their photograph taken.

As far as model releases are concerned, I have had to get a few. In fact, most of the guys I particularly work with now I got to know because I had to go looking for model releases from them two years ago. Where you might run into issues is that there are a growing number of kitesurfers under the age of 18 who are not legally competent to sign model release forms - you need parental consent. In practice, you only need a model release form if you plan to use the photograph commercially. If you plan to upload photographs to a stock agency, for example, it is probably well advised to get some sort of release. If I need a release for any reason, I generally hand over a large print - at least A4. Any further use of a photograph is open to discussion in my view. That's how I handle it.

With respect to kitesurfing photography in particular - because it happens to be my area of expertise - there are issues relating to photographer safety. The lines are 30m long. The kites can land on you. The kitesurfers can lose control. It may be that whoever had words with you yesterday might have had concerns of those nature. I have seen kites land on people and I have almost had them land on me. Kitesurfing is a dangerous sport and taking photographs of them demands a certain amount of care regarding your own safety and theirs.

You asked about etiquette. For the most part, I would say you need to pay attention to your safety and to theirs. Don't get in their way, for example, if you're going into the water. And if they ask you to move, move. They're not doing it to be particularly awkward. Remember that you will have kitesurfers of differing abilities around the place - the good guys will know exactly how much of a risk they will take if you're in the water for example - the beginners will prefer you are as far away as possible.

If you have any questions at all, please either PM me or email me. I haven't a sig in place at the moment but in case:

flickr is here and kitesurfing photog site is here.

Calina

One rule I do apply to myself is that I will never take photographs of people taking lessons unless they specifically request me to do so.

challengemaster

Don't you only need a model release if their face is recognisable, though?

Calina

If you are taking good kite shots, they will be recognisable.

Balfey1972

Took some last week for the first time. Felt a little awkward at first but to hell with it. Some of the guys came over looking to get a view of them as i was finishing up.

To be honest most of these guys would love a nice photo of them in action on their wall or desk.

challengemaster

Calina wrote: »

If you are taking good kite shots, they will be recognisable.

Yes and no, I've seen a lot of your good shots, which they're mid-trick facing another direction, or silhouette, or some other such.

Calina

CM, people are much more than their faces and can be recognised even without their faces being clearly visible in a photograph. The issue is not whether their face can be recognised, but whether they themselves can be recognised. Discretion is the better part of valour in this case; go ask for a release if you are going to use the photograph for commercial reasons or via a stock agency.

challengemaster

Stock agencies only ask for a release if you can make out the face, though. That's why I brought it up.

BanzaiBk

Woah! Thanks for all that great advice Calina. I chanced my arm tonight but no one was about, only surfers as last night. I'll have a good look through your Flickr feed now, thanks:)

Calina

CM, I would still get the release anyway. But that's just me. As it happens I had to get releases for every photograph that went to Red Bull two years ago, regardless of the angles of the shots.

BanzaiBk, really, if you have decent surf you could get fabulous photographs. There's a contributor here called paudie who is a superb surf photographer - his website is here. Well worth a look.

The web is littered with the sites of people who do this kind of thing. I spend my time surfing other people's work from time to time, just to see what they are doing.

One piece of advice - don't go straight into the water - get used to shooting the guys from the beach first. The water is not a safe place to be. If you are going to take risks with yourself and your camera, they have to be your risks up front. Your responsibility. I shoot from the water from time to time but most people think I am a little bit crazy for it. I occasionally get great shots. I shot from the beach for one year before I ventured into the water and I am damn choosy about when I go in there. Cameras are not waterproof by the way. If they swim they drown.

Otherwise have fun and maybe see you on a beach soon.

What camera do you have by the way?

BanzaiBk

Thanks again Calina, I'm using a 400D and a 40D. I would be very wary of getting into the water at the moment, I don't even really stand on the beach (I sit/lean on a wall) for fear that I'd get a whack of a kite/annoy some participants.

Calina

Good. I shot the first year and a half with a 350D and then moved to the 40D. The 40D will be your friend with its nice continuous shooting for kitesurfing and indeed surfing. There's no need to limit yourself to the wall in Garrettstown. It's worth getting to know some of your local kitesurfers too - my experience with the crew in Dublin, Kerry and Sligo is that they are very decent folk.

The more time you spend around these guys, the better you'll get to know where and how they move. A lot of the time I don't even take photographs, I watch.

Paulw

challengemaster wrote: »

Stock agencies only ask for a release if you can make out the face, though. That's why I brought it up.

That's more to do with US law on model release and such.

Every country is different though.

paudie

BanzaiBk wrote: »

I chanced my arm tonight but no one was about, only surfers as last night.

Ha

Cheers for the props Calina

Model release what now?

AnCatDubh

Just a few thoughts on this - By the sounds of it (and bear in mind that I've never attempted to capture kitesurfers) I guess you might have come across the 'one' that you'd rather not have come across (grumpy, stubborn, perhaps concerned and unable to express their thoughts other than telling you where to go).

I'd think like most things, unless taking generalised shots, and assuming you are clearly there with your camera to take photographs, it would be useful if possible to wander by in the first instance, say "hello", enquire as to what they are doing, enquire as to the safety aspects of whatever it is they are doing, ask if they'd mind you taking some photographs giving them pointers of where they'd be able to view the results.

If they say no, for me I'd back off. Simply no point at that stage. You may be in a public place and you might be on the right side of the law, but to me I do photography because I enjoy it and there's no joy in being in a confrontational situation. I'd think that if you persisted that you'd have had poor photos as a result (not because anyone's bad at taking photos but just the confrontation would have put things out of kilter in your head).

Perhaps the individual now finds that they can't go to do their kite surfing (and remember it is 'their' activity) without a lens jumping out from behind the dunes which i'd imagine would be somewhat annoying after it happens a number of times or indeed the individual was just self conscious of the beer belly and their lack of skills to be photographed :pac: (which by the way if i wasn't being lighthearted is actually a serious concern for some people).

In summary, I'd suggest go for the approach first and if that doesn't work i'd back away and find someone else.

Cheers.

BanzaiBk

paudie wrote: »

Ha

lol, by surfers I meant a bunch of local 15 year olds who had one board between them:rolleyes: Awesome website btw.

AnCatDubh wrote: »

If they say no, for me I'd back off. Simply no point at that stage. You may be in a public place and you might be on the right side of the law, but to me I do photography because I enjoy it and there's no joy in being in a confrontational situation.

In summary, I'd suggest go for the approach first and if that doesn't work i'd back away and find someone else.

Yes, I share your sentiments. As much as I love photography, I don't think I want to introduce an anxiety filled situation into my hobby.

Thanks for all the awesome replies.

BanzaiBk

Sorry to doublepost.

I was out this evening, lovely weather and light and I think I got some OK shots, just uploading now. I was shooting with the 40D and my 70-200m f/2.8. I feel like I could do with a bit more reach though. I have a Sigma 70-300mm f/4-5.6 but I find it too soft for my liking at 300mm and at f/4 it's punishment compared to the 70-200 at the long end in low light.

The Sigma 50-500mm f/4-6.3 looks tempting and not too spendy to start out with, but f/4 is putting me off. Am I wrong in thinking f/4 won't be good enough for the next few months? Any other suggestions?

Calina

I use the Sigma as my base lens. The issue isn't really the f4, it's the f6.3 at the long end. In practice I rarely shoot beyond 400mm with it anyway but you are miles from your 2/8 and I'll bet you'll find it hard.

Ironically enough I got on better with the 50-500mm in Nov 2006 than I did in July 2007 courtesy of the lousy weather last year. This year is not shaping up too much better. Maybe in the short term you might consider putting a 2x TC on the70-200 and see how you get on.

Can you point me to your flickr btw?

Borderfox

The Sigma 50-500 is an excellent lens and for the reach/money it cant be beat, I had one for a while and got a lot of great shots out of it.

BanzaiBk

Oppps, didn't see this thread until now:o

Calina wrote: »

Ironically enough I got on better with the 50-500mm in Nov 2006 than I did in July 2007 courtesy of the lousy weather last year. This year is not shaping up too much better. Maybe in the short term you might consider putting a 2x TC on the70-200 and see how you get on.

Can you point me to your flickr btw?

Thanks for all the advice Calina, I really appreciate it. I don't actually have anything on my Flickr account:o I was thinking about a teleconverter for the short term, my brother has a Kenko 300 2x converter that I can probably lend off him. I was offered a twice used 50-500mm for €500 though, which seems to be a good deal.

Borderfox wrote: »

The Sigma 50-500 is an excellent lens and for the reach/money it cant be beat, I had one for a while and got a lot of great shots out of it.

Thanks for the reply, just what I wanted to hear:)