Pay Talks Fail

Dub13

I don't think this was much of a surprise when conceder how far apart the employers and unions were going into the talks.The final deal involved a six month pay pause followed by a 2.5% pay increase for six months, and a further 2.5% for nine months.

It will be interesting to see what kind of increases Unions put in for now on a case by case bases.Some stormy waters ahead I think.

RTE News

ixoy

Are they any figures for the amount of private sector people that came under the national pay agreement versus the public sector? I'd be curious to see who these talks affect as I've never been in an unionised company myself and that seems quite common in the private IT sector.

Devilman

I'm not in the least surprised by this outcome. I wonder who was more entrenched in their position, the public sector unions or the private unions. Looks like the lower paid workers out there are going to be severely shafted over the next few months and we could be in for a winter of discontent in the public sector.

Stormy waters ahead - may be the understatement of the year methinks.


And what of Brian Cowen? - 2 defeats out of 2 (He's starting to whiff of Gordon Brown a bit)

dresden8

Devilman wrote: »

I'm not in the least surprised by this outcome. I wonder who was more entrenched in their position, the public sector unions or the private unions. Looks like the lower paid workers out there are going to be severely shafted over the next few months and we could be in for a winter of discontent in the public sector.

Stormy waters ahead - may be the understatement of the year methinks.


And what of Brian Cowen? - 2 defeats out of 2 (He's starting to whiff of Gordon Brown a bit)

There are a lot of parallels between the two.

darkman2

I think this is excellent news. The private workers have been shafted whilst the public sector got everything under these sham agreements. I hope the government now uses the opportunity to crush certain public sector unions.

Devilman

Darkman I hope your wish comes true. However you know as well as I do that successive governments have pandered to public sector unions (just look at our bloated health service), and I think our current government are just as spineless. Ultimately, I think private sector workers are going to suffer.

dresden8

Divided and conquered.

Public Sector did better because they are in Unions.

Private sector did worse because they are not in Unions. Private Sector despise Unions because they get better pay settlements.

Join a freakin' Union you dumbasses.

markpb

dresden8 wrote: »

Divided and conquered.

Public Sector did better because they are in Unions.

Private sector did worse because they are not in Unions. Private Sector despise Unions because they get better pay settlements.

Join a freakin' Union you dumbasses.

I've had one public sector job and three private sector jobs and I've never felt the need to join a union (even if one did exist). Frankly, the way some unions behave in this country, I'd be embarrassed to say I was a member of one. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the private sector who thinks that.

The reason the public sector (unions) did so well is because their services cannot be provided by anyone else and we have a government who didn't want to risk votes.

SerialComplaint

darkman2 wrote: »

I think this is excellent news. The private workers have been shafted whilst the public sector got everything under these sham agreements. I hope the government now uses the opportunity to crush certain public sector unions.

Devilman wrote: »

Darkman I hope your wish comes true. However you know as well as I do that successive governments have pandered to public sector unions (just look at our bloated health service), and I think our current government are just as spineless. Ultimately, I think private sector workers are going to suffer.

You might want to check out the OECD review of the Irish public sector so that your future posts can be based on fact, rather than ill-informed and unsupported allegations.

Devilman

Where are my opinions ill informed...private sector workers will suffer, in fact they already ARE suffering, look at the unemployment figures for the last 12 months, look at the 70% of private firms who are not unionized and are offering pay freezes or pay-cuts. If partnership talks resume a Pay freeze opt-out for businesses will be included, this will not affect the public service unions in any way and therefore it will be, in the main lower paid workers in the private sector who WILL suffer.

I know our public sector spending ratio is among the lowest in Europe, but pay in the public sector is on average higher than the average private sector workers, and this does not take into account job security or pension provision.

If the economy is to prosper in future, an essential element is the cost-effective provision of public services and therefore the public sector unions must face the realities that private workers are already facing and this, unfortunately means pay freezes or lower than inflation increases for more skilled and therefore, higher paid public service worker, and no requests for a successor to benchmarking for the foreseeable future. Or for pay increases to be awarded based upon productivity. If they don't then its back to local bargaining and the bad old days of the 80's. And its here that industrial disputes will occur, and here the government will back down, at a time when a tough stance is needed. As markpb said their services cannot be provided by anyone else and we definitely have a government who don't want to risk votes.

Partnership agreements are not only about the best deal for individuals, they are about the best deal for the country and right now and only in the short term, pay restraint, as unpalatable as it may sound, is needed by all sides.

SerialComplaint

Devilman wrote: »

pay in the public sector is on average higher than the average private sector workers,

There's your ill-informed stuff right there. While technically accurate, this is a meaningless comparison. You might as well complain that houses in Ballsbridge are dearer that houses in deepest rural Leitrim.

Looking at 'average' pay tells you nothing, until you look at the 'average' job requirements and the 'average' qualification level of the staff. Any conclusions based on claims about 'average' pay are completely flawed.

And you might want to clarify the basis for your claim that the health service is bloated.

nhughes100

I agree that public sector bashing is done a bit too easily by some, you'd swear you had to win a lottery to get into it. The only companies advertising for work these days are public sector so feel free to apply and join up. Go through an interview process and good luck to you and the hundred other people that applied for the same job. Anyway most of you hotshot private sector get up and goers were educated by the public service pretty much for free.

Speaking as a public servant I can tell you that the government have creased the unions in these national pay agreements, pretty muich everything in my area that was considered non negotiable ten years ago has been signed off now under partnership and modernisation etc.

These national pay agreements were a complete joke anyway, they totally undermined the individual unions. Consider this, if you're a member of impact and you get the exact same conditions as a member of siptu then why would you join either seeing as you get the rises whether you're in the union or not?? This way each individual union can go in and represent it's members appropriately, I never saw the sense in someone in education getting the same pay agreement as someone in defence for example.

Then what about private sector unions such as the NUJ who are a closed shop and who was the first union to lodge a pay claim today??? The bankers!

All of this stuff we hear spouted from private sector ppl is sour grapes as far as I can see. It goes back to the contradictory position that it is your right to be a member of a union but the company does not have to recognise the union. Talk about an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

One of the previous posters mentioned divide and conquer and history proves them to be correct.

markpb

nhughes100 wrote: »

Speaking as a public servant I can tell you that the government have creased the unions in these national pay agreements, pretty muich everything in my area that was considered non negotiable ten years ago has been signed off now under partnership and modernisation etc.

Could you give examples of that? The reason (in my opinion) that private sector workers poke fun at public service is because things that are the norm in private sector is either a no-go or requires time off or danger money in the public sector.

When I worked in Enterprise Ireland, everyone got a day off while their desk was being moved. If it was an office, not only did they get a day off but they got "compensation" for the "stress". When waiting lists for driving tests were ridiculously long, the driver testing union threatened to go on strike if they hired more testers because it would threaten their overtime. When Irish Rail wanted to hire contractors for line maintenance, they had to ask the unions for permission so they wouldn't go on strike. I won't even mention the Dart drivers threatening to strike because the trains were made longer. With drivel like that, you can't blame people for laughing at public sector unions.

All of this stuff we hear spouted from private sector ppl is sour grapes as far as I can see. It goes back to the contradictory position that it is your right to be a member of a union but the company does not have to recognise the union. Talk about an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Maybe you're right but in my case, I just never wanted to join a union - I never saw the advantages of one. None of my employers treated me badly, pay reviews were fair and based on my work during the year, not on my seniority or other guff like that and I never felt threatened when they wanted to hire more staff. If my company oppressed me, changed my working conditions dramatically or without notice or if my co-workers were at risk while working in the salt mine, maybe I'd change my mind.

nhughes100

Sure I can give you examples, the areas you raise are rightly berated by the way. I'd love to have those guys in negotiating on my behalf but they all seem to stem from bad employers as well as bad unions. At the end of the day some senior member of management has agreed to these ridiculous "customs and practice" I can tell you for sure that I have never heard of anyone getting the day off just because their desk is being moved.

Case in point we've a move into a new building over the next two weeks, the desks and pc's, phones etc are all there waiting for the staff to walk over, they will receive no extra pay for being in a different building nor will they get any compensation. My area is 3rd level education and now courses during the Summer are par for the course where this was traditionally seen as downtime. Also semesterisation is now accepted practice. Clocking in, not being paid weekly any more, any new computer system they want to bring in is done whether it involves changes in work practise or not. Extended hours including opening during lunch breaks is now common place in the public sector where it was previously seen as a no go.

As I said a lot of these stemmed from stupid management decisions in the first place. I heard that the Cork rail workers used to get paid a coal allowance for going past Cobh I think heading from Kent station, even when the trains stopped using coal they still got paid. Thats just sheer bad management, if someone is going to give you money for doing nothing, you aren't going to turn it down.

Civil and public sector management are generally poor, I think because a lot of them graduated through the ranks from admin assistants up to departmental heads. You would think the salary levels would attract better industry people but there you go. We advertised for a person a few months ago and got 2 people worthy of interview for an IT job starting at 32 grand, permenent, pensionable etc etc, diploma + 3 years experience and increments every year - go figure.