Why is Northern Ireland a part of the UK politically, and not of Ireland?

R0ot

Thread title isn't mine I swear! Came across this article this morning and I tried to think how Northern Ireland (politically) came to be and I realised i'm not 100% sure, I have a fair idea of what I think is the correct turn of events. I found myself laughing at a few of the replies:

Simplistically, the British drove the native rulers of part of northeastern Ireland out and settled it. When Ireland gained its independence, the settlers' descendants threatened to rebel if they were forced to join with the rest of the country in leaving the UK. NI was thus created, including 6 of 9 counties in the province of Ulster so that it would have a slight majority of settlers rather than native Irish.

The native Irish, mostly Catholic poplulation were then oppressed and discriminated against by the mainly Protestant settlers. Eventually, there was a Civil Rights movement, followed by violence. In reality, the conflict was not at root about religion - it was about politics - whther or not NI should rejoin the rest of Ireland.

Because the UK went in there a while ago, filled it with Protestants, and let religious rivalry do its work.

I'm sure among all the history buffs and other assorted morons idiots trolls boards posters (yeah that one works) we can pick out the correct answer while i'm sure seeing a lot of peoples outlandish ideas of how it 'actually' happened. So as the thread title says "Why is Northern Ireland a part of the UK politically, and not of Ireland?" :pac:

il gatto

You're really asking for it with that thread title:D

Very roughly, during the plantation of Ireland, the north eastern area was more successfully and densely settled. As opposed to the rest of Ireland, it was also settled by more Scottish than English people.
When Irish organisations such as the Fenians, Irish Volunteers etc. were prospering, the area now known as Northern Ireland were quick to mobilise any threat to British rule (including arming themselves). When the War of Independence took place, The I.R.A. were less successful in such a loyalist stronghold. When the Traety was signed, the British Government would not agree to puling out of the North. Strangely, the actual partition was not decreed by the treaty, but by the Boundry Commision. The finalised border was not ratified until 1925, 3 years after the Free State came into being.
Oddly, many areas included in Northern Ireland were majority nationalist and expected to be part of the Free State, such as Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry etc. Because of the Civil War and the general state of flux, the existing border was settled rather arbitrarily.
This is a very rough guide as I've no intention of writing a thousand word post. See here for more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_ireland#Boundary_Commission_1922.E2.80.9325

Fol20

All of what ill gatto said is correct...however he left out a few things...Before the treaty negotiations took place,both southern and northern ireland had different official governments and were therefore in different jurisdictions.So even if one wanted to go independent,they couldn't make all of ireland a republic due to laws making Northern Ireland having their own state.Secondly during the treaty negotiation,Collins and co had a mutual belief that they would get Northern Ireland back in time for a number of reasons,i cant be arsed stating them all but the first one that comes into my mind is that Collins and dev thought that Northern Ireland was too small to make an entire estate and wouldnt last due to its economic and population restraints.Finally when the boundry commission was set up,we had very poor negotiators that didnt help the situation at all.

Hope this helps

Munya

They were the majority in those counties......or so I was told.

m@cc@

Fol20 wrote: »

Collins and dev thought that Northern Ireland was too small to make an entire estate and wouldnt last due to its economic and population restraints.

They were half right, they just didn't count on the stubborness of the British. NI has been a drain on the British economy ever since it was created.

beautiation

Because it would bad form for us not to give the proddies we wanted to run out of the 26 counties a safe haven to aim for while we manhunted them.

Ruins the sport entirely if the rabbit hasn't got a hole to run to don'tyouknow?

eirmail

Munya wrote: »

They were the majority in those counties......or so I was told.

If you took the 6 countries as a unit they were the mjhority but if you took them county by county they were only the majority in some of the counties. Also if you took the 9 counties of Ulster as a unit I think it was very close nearly 50-50.

Bottle_of_Smoke

After 2000 posts you probably know about this, but just in case -

Politics

Nolanger

The Michael Collins movie explains it.

gurramok

Anyway, when the nationalist numbers threaten the unionist majority which will be happening within the decade, expect a county or two to be given back to recreate that artificial majority of unionists just like they when NI was created in the first place

seamus

m@cc@ wrote: »

They were half right, they just didn't count on the stubborness of the British. NI has been a drain on the British economy ever since it was created.

Only because sectarian violence has prevented any inward investment. What company would build a factory in what's essentially a war zone?
And no jobs == poverty == low education == high crime == high cost to the government.

It's only now with the end to the IRA that the north can lift itself out of its rut. The north is at the point now that the south was at in 1990.

Munya

eirmail wrote: »

If you took the 6 countries as a unit they were the mjhority but if you took them county by county they were only the majority in some of the counties. Also if you took the 9 counties of Ulster as a unit I think it was very close nearly 50-50.

I've been lied to

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

Anyway, when the nationalist numbers threaten the unionist majority which will be happening within the decade, expect a county or two to be given back to recreate that artificial majority of unionists just like they when NI was created in the first place

sorry mate, you can't cherry pick, you either take it all back or nothing at all:D

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

sorry mate, you can't cherry pick, you either take it all back or nothing at all:D

Don't you want to keep it?

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

Don't you want to keep it?

Only the oil fields and gold mines, you can have the rest:D

KTRIC

I'm sure someone is going to say this so I thought it best to get it out of the way :


800 years etc etc etc :rolleyes:

and "They tuk ur juuuubs" !!!

PrivateEye

Munya wrote: »

They were the majority in those counties......or so I was told.

Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry, and chunks of Armagh had nationalist majorities at the time of partition. A 3 county 'state' wouldn't make much sense economically though :rolleyes:

Interestingly the six counties were initially in the Free State, after the Anglo Irish Treaty was agreed. The North of the country quickly made diplomatic moves to have themselves removed from the legal Free State. Using the ability to opt out, Norrrrrrrn Iron was born and a few decades of Chucky this and that, God Save this and that and lads walking down roads they're not wanted on began! Horray!

MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN, We, your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Senators and Commons of Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, having learnt of the passing of the Irish Free State Constitution Act, 1922, being the Act of Parliament for the ratification of the Articles of Agreement for a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland, do, by this humble Address, pray your Majesty that the powers of the Parliament and Government of the Irish Free State shall no longer extend to Northern Ireland.”

I don't think ANYONE expected the Nordies not to opt out pretty rapidly.

sock puppet

PrivateEye wrote: »

Interestingly the six counties were initially in the Free State, after the Anglo Irish Treaty was agreed. The North of the country quickly made diplomatic moves to have themselves removed from the legal Free State. Using the ability to opt out, Norrrrrrrn Iron was born and a few decades of Chucky this and that, God Save this and that and lads walking down roads they're not wanted on began! Horray!

Well the partition of the six counties from the rest of Ireland was actually agreed upon in 1914 during Redmond's and Carson's negotiations over the Home Rule Bill. Only it was meant to be temporary or indefinite to be more specific. This meant that Carson could tell unionists that it would be permanent and Redmond could say to nationalists that it would only be temporary. Although Carson was bluffing in a way. He didn't want Home Rule at all and only proposed this because he believed that nationalists would find partition unacceptable and give up Home Rule to keep the country united. Anyway because of the war, Home Rule was suspended so we'll know out what would have happened.

And what you said isn't really true. Home Rule was reintroduced in 1920 and it gave a separate parliament to the North and South so by the time the Free State was founded Northern Ireland already had their own parliament. (They voted to remain separate the day after the state was founded anyway)

Jigsaw

You all hate me because I am from Northern Ireland. I am gonna take my ball and go home.

Jigsaw

Mr.S wrote: »

Bye

Exactly, and do you anything about me or my beliefs, which I would imagine would not be the beliefs you would expect.