Galway & Antrim to Leinster?

CyberDave

What do people think? Should Galway and Antrim be put into the Leinster Championship for next year?

Orizio

Basically it should be the Munster Championship and 'Rest Of Ireland' Championship (Leinster plus Antrim and Galway), a back door for the losers and the weaker teams should automatically have home advantage in all games up to the All-Irelnad quarters.

Mushy

I think they should be in it, would make it a bit more competitive at least. I still think Kilkenny would win it, but for the lesser teams it'll make them stronger until Kilkenny thn fall away*. Anyone see the letter in Irish Times about it either today or yesterday?

*may or may NOT actually happen

CyberDave

Mushy wrote: »

I think they should be in it, would make it a bit more competitive at least. I still think Kilkenny would win it, but for the lesser teams it'll make them stronger until Kilkenny thn fall away*. Anyone see the letter in Irish Times about it either today or yesterday?

*may or may NOT actually happen

What was in the letter? I don't think Kilkenny are too keen on having teams added to the Leinster Champioship, even if they would still win it.

Pride Fighter

Its a good idea. Give Dublin some extra games before tackling Kilkenny:)

Mont

Definitey good for the hurling championship - but Galway already rejected this last year so who knows after last Sats woeful display but ya i agree totally - defo keep Munster the way it is as it is the only true Provincial Championship we have left - there is more atmosphere at a Munster Hurling Final than the rest put together

Scootay

Stupid idea. Adding Galway and Antrim into Leinster won't help the weaker counties. They already get a shot against the best hurling county in Ireland so the "playing better opposition" argument is meaningless.

Move Kilkenny into Munster if they need more of a challenge.

patmac

Scootay wrote: »

Stupid idea. Adding Galway and Antrim into Leinster won't help the weaker counties. They already get a shot against the best hurling county in Ireland so the "playing better opposition" argument is meaningless.

Move Kilkenny into Munster if they need more of a challenge.

I think it's for Galway and Antrim's and also the Leinster Championship's benefit if it happens, as I said before Galway rejected it before because of the underage situation whereas now they get directly into the AI semi finals in U-21 and Minor, they could concievably draw Kilkenny in the 1st round of these and be eliminated immediately, however I believe most clubs are in favour of it this time round, so it could happen.

Scootay

Galway and Antrim get plenty of tough games in the league. It's their problem if they don't think it worth their while (although I doubt that's the case).

Move Kilkenny into Munster and you'll have Offaly, Wexford, Dublin, Laois and, at a stretch, Westmeath competing for the Leinster title every year which will make it more interesting.

DiscoHugh

I was talking to a taxi driver in Galway at the weekend who said the reason Galway don't want in was because Leinster branch were demanding all revenue from the matches that would be played or something like that.....

Mushy

The author of the letter was saying KK have won 9 out of last 10 Leinsters, so they should be moved into Munster, and when they win 9 out of 10 Munsters, then review that situation. It was neglected that KK wouldnt be able to win 9 out of 10 in Munster!

But I do think it'd be better to put Galway & Antrim into Leinster. The idea isnt to give KK more of a challenge, the idea is to strenghten the competition as a whole. Scooty says put KK in Munster...all it does is delay the inevitable for Leinster teams then. Sad to say it, but not far from the truth.

EDIT: This was in reply to the person who quoted my last message, dunno what happened to the quote box!

Orizio

I'm against messing around with the Munster Champ, if its not broke then don't fix it. Besides, moving Kilkenny south would further relegate the leinster Championship quality and prestige wise.

Scootay

How is bringing Galway and Antrim into Leinster going to improve Carlow, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly or Dublin hurling? (just picking random Leinster counties that aren't Kilkenny.)

yahoo_moe

Scootay wrote: »

How is bringing Galway and Antrim into Leinster going to improve Carlow, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly or Dublin hurling? (just picking random Leinster counties that aren't Kilkenny.)

I agree - I've yet to see a single argument to convince me that it'll improve Galway, Antrim or Leinster hurling... as a Dub, I also feel it's a bit disheartening considering all the work that's gone into improving the underage systems over time (not that I think Galway will necessarily wipe the floor with Dublin every year mind )

I'd rather see the provincial championships separated from an open draw All-Ireland series myself... as far as I know, they're already separate entities according to GAA rules...

Orizio

Scootay wrote: »

How is bringing Galway and Antrim into Leinster going to improve Carlow, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly or Dublin hurling? (just picking random Leinster counties that aren't Kilkenny.)

Likely more games, better chance of avoiding Kilkenny if they are beaten early on by Galway, and whoever does get to the final will have two competive games underneath their belt. if the weaker teams have automatic home advantage then that will further level the playing field. Finally, there is an advantage to having Kilkenny tested earlier in the all Ireland series for the championship in general, right now its too easy for Kilkenny to peak in the semis and final.

Dublin and Offaly are already on the way up, the latter making clear breakthroughs this year and the former a couple of top class forwards short of being real competitiors. I really don't know a lot aobut Kildare or Carlow hurling, but a strong and competitive club scene and ample resources are the basis for the smaller counties progress. Whatever the re-configuration of the leinster champ, Carlow, Westmeath etc are not going to be beating Kilkenny anytime soon.

Agus

Apparently, despite Sambo McNaughton's support, the Antrim county board are strongly opposed to any move out of Ulster into Leinster.

john concannon

I would give Offaly and Dublin another two years before considering bringing Antrim and Galway.They are both coming on every year and I think Wexford are capable of having a giant-killing performance on a good day.They are very hot and cold though.

I think you will get this arguement every year when Galway get beaten.

The Chessplayer

Simple solution.

Munster stays as is.

Winner of Nicy Rackard qualifies for Christy Ring.

Christy Ring: Wicklow, Carlow, Kildare, Roscommon, Mayo, Westmeath, Down, Derry, Kerry.

Winner of Christy Ring, goes into a play-off against Laois* to get into an All-Ireland Series (league format maybe?) with KK, Wex, Dublin, Offaly, Antrim & Galway.

Winner of which goes directly into AI semi final. Winner of Munster goes into other AI semi, and the other 2 slots are made up by the qualifier system.

This way it is a meritocracy that gives the Christy Ringers etc a tangible path to the top.


*The above position that Laois hold could be decided every year based on a ranking system derived from the leagues.

Flukey

Of course Galway shouldn't play in Leinster. That is avoiding the problem. There is no call to move the Galway footballers into Leinster, is there? Of course not and that is because the other Connacht counties are able to give Galway a good challenge. When it comes to Hurling though, the other counties in Connacht can't give them a challenge, and that's where the problem is and that is what has to changed. Galway should play in the Connacht Hurling Championship and the GAA and county boards should get their finger out to make sure there is one and that it is a competitive one. Putting Galway into Leinster won't help that.

Even if they were put into Leinster, what would that actually achieve? They might get one or two games. Only last week they were saying under the current system that playing the likes of Laois isn't doing them much good. If they are put into Leinster, they'll be doing the exact same thing, so it won't be radically different than what we have now.

Much the same could be said of Antrim. At least there was an Ulster Hurling Championship this year, though its construct was a bit odd with some teams getting byes into the later stages. It should be drawn like the football Championship. We also had the ridiculous situation that no matter who won it, Antrim would have gone into the All-Ireland stages. They should build on the Ulster Hurling Championship next year and get a Connacht Hurling Championship up and going to. That's the only way to solve the "Galway and Antrim problem". Meanwhile in Leinster, all the other counties should be playing in it for the same reasons.

Agus

Flukey wrote: »

Of course Galway shouldn't play in Leinster. That is avoiding the problem. There is no call to move the Galway footballers into Leinster, is there? Of course not and that is because the other Connacht counties are able to give Galway a good challenge. When it comes to Hurling though, the other counties in Connacht can't give them a challenge, and that's where the problem is and that is what has to changed. Galway should play in the Connacht Hurling Championship and the GAA and county boards should get their finger out to make sure there is one and that it is a competitive one. Putting Galway into Leinster won't help that.

Even if they were put into Leinster, what would that actually achieve? They might get one or two games. Only last week they were saying under the current system that playing the likes of Laois isn't doing them much good. If they are put into Leinster, they'll be doing the exact same thing, so it won't be radically different than what we have now.

Much the same could be said of Antrim. At least there was an Ulster Hurling Championship this year, though its construct was a bit odd with some teams getting byes into the later stages. It should be drawn like the football Championship. We also had the ridiculous situation that no matter who won it, Antrim would have gone into the All-Ireland stages. They should build on the Ulster Hurling Championship next year and get a Connacht Hurling Championship up and going to. That's the only way to solve the "Galway and Antrim problem". Meanwhile in Leinster, all the other counties should be playing in it for the same reasons.

To be honest I don't think there is any point in having a Connacht championship, because none of the other counties is going to be anywhere near Galway's present standard for the foreseeable future. We're saying that Galway hammering Antrim or Laois does nothing for anyone - can you imagine what would happen with Leitrim or Sligo? They scrapped the Connacht championship before for the exact reason that they tried it before, none of the other counties were going to be able to develop to the level required to make it competitive and it was pointless. The other counties need to play teams that they can at least hope to compete with, and unfortunately it will be a long time before we could hope for any of them to be in the same league as Galway. Similar arguments apply to what you said about Ulster and Leinster - there just isn't any point in removing the bye and having Antrim hammer Cavan, Fermanagh etc every year or in bringing in Louth and Longford to face Kilkenny.

It might not be such a bad idea though to have all 12 compete in Leisnter, as long as there were byes. The previous year's finalists could get a bye to the semi-finals, and the previous year's losing semi-finalists could get a bye to the quarter-finals. 'Divisional' teams as in some county championships could be considered as well e.g. a 'rest of Connacht' team etc, even though the rest of Connacht put together probably still wouldn't have much chance against Galway for some time to come.

I agree though with what you say about there being no magic fixes. I think major improvements can be made to the format, but in the end the best solution is to have more competitive teams.

Flukey

It's the very fact that the Connacht counties are poor that we need to do something about it. Moving Galway into the Leinster Championship will do nothing for those counties. It is ignoring the real problem while trying to solve something that isn't a problem. It is like bandaging your arm when you have a broken leg.

People talk about Galway being a problem in the Hurling Championship. They are a county that performs well and has strong Hurling, so they are certainly not a problem. The other counties in Connacht aren't up to giving them a game, so we need to get working fast to get them to the standard that they will be able to, rather than moving Galway and Antrim around. We aren't going to get a Cavan v Louth All-Ireland Senior Hurling Final any time soon, but we should start working immediately to make it a possibility.

The Chessplayer

Flukey wrote: »

It's the very fact that the Connacht counties are poor that we need to do something about it. Moving Galway into the Leinster Championship will do nothing for those counties. It is ignoring the real problem while trying to solve something that isn't a problem. It is like bandaging your arm when you have a broken leg.

People talk about Galway being a problem in the Hurling Championship. They are a county that performs well and has strong Hurling, so they are certainly not a problem. The other counties in Connacht aren't up to giving them a game, so we need to get working fast to get them to the standard that they will be able to, rather than moving Galway and Antrim around. We aren't going to get a Cavan v Louth All-Ireland Senior Hurling Final any time soon, but we should start working immediately to make it a possibility.

Stick to the special olympics flukey, you'd haven't a clue

Pride Fighter

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Stick to the special olympics flukey, you'd haven't a clue

Cease the personal abuse Chessplayer, it is a bannable offence.

graphene

Flukey wrote: »

People talk about Galway being a problem in the Hurling Championship. They are a county that performs well and has strong Hurling, so they are certainly not a problem. The other counties in Connacht aren't up to giving them a game, so we need to get working fast to get them to the standard that they will be able to, rather than moving Galway and Antrim around.

But the fact is under the current setup you have both Galway and Antrim who have only lost one game in the championship (Galway by only 2 points) yet they are out while both Waterford and Cork have lost games by larger margins but because they are from the stronger provinces they still have the qualifiers as a backup so have made the all ireland Semis.

Its not really fair that Galway are punished for the weakness of every other team in Connacht ,no other counties entered in their province (not their fault). So instead they must first beat the Ulster champs in a play off, then beat Laois and would have had to have beaten both Cork and Clare just to get into the all-ireland Semis.

What did Kilkenny have to do to get there, beat both Dublin and Wexford. Given the relative strength of the teams involved (as proven by Dublin vs Cork) how is the current system fair on teams like Galway and Antrim.

By putting Galway and Antrim into a Inter province championship (excluding the munster teams) containing Kilkenny, Galway, Antrim, Wexford, Dublin, Offaly and any other teams who think they are good enough to opt into it (as Westmeath did in Leinster this year) you could have the 2 "provincial"winners going straight into the semi finals, and everyone else into playoffs for the other semi final places.

yahoo_moe

graphene wrote: »

But the fact is under the current setup you have both Galway and Antrim who have only lost one game in the championship (Galway by only 2 points) yet they are out while both Waterford and Cork have lost games by larger margins but because they are from the stronger provinces they still have the qualifiers as a backup so have made the all ireland Semis.

Its not really fair that Galway are punished for the weakness of every other team in Connacht ,no other counties entered in their province (not their fault).

It's not about margins of victory or anything similar - the fact is that Galway were in the All-Ireland series because they are effectively deemed Connacht champions by default every year. So they didn't have the chance to lose a provincial game like Waterford or Cork did in Munster.

Any of the mish-mash systems being proposed open a can of worms as soon as the strength of hurling in, say, Roscommon or Derry changes significantly. The provincial systems aren't perfect (and should probably be separated from the All-Ireland series more clearly) but you can't make a huge decision about the structure of the competition based solely on a Galway team that couldn't beat Cork and the current strength of the major 'traditional' hurling counties.

graphene

yahoo_moe wrote: »

It's not about margins of victory or anything similar - the fact is that Galway were in the All-Ireland series because they are effectively deemed Connacht champions by default every year. So they didn't have the chance to lose a provincial game like Waterford or Cork did in Munster.

Any of the mish-mash systems being proposed open a can of worms as soon as the strength of hurling in, say, Roscommon or Derry changes significantly. The provincial systems aren't perfect (and should probably be separated from the All-Ireland series more clearly) but you can't make a huge decision about the structure of the competition based solely on a Galway team that couldn't beat Cork and the current strength of the major 'traditional' hurling counties.

I agree with you that the margin of victory is irrelevant but the current system has still thrown up the following:

Waterford - Lost to Clare but still have the qualifiers - make the Semis
Cork - Lost to Tipp but still have the qualifiers - make the Semis
Galway - Lost to Cork no qualifiers - Out


In my opinion why not let Galway and the Ulster Champs (will almost certanly be Antrim, for the next few years anyway) enter the Leinster championship (give Antrim a Bye to the Leinster semis as they still have to win in Ulster).

Then even if they lose they still get the chance to enter the qualifiers. To allow certain Counties an extra shot at the all ireland (through the qualifiers) and to deny that opportunity to those who dont come from the 'traditional' hurling counties is unfair.

If the strength of hurling in other counties increases thats great, you could reinstate the Connacht championship and give the winners a semi final place in Leinster. Even then no county could lose one game and be out of the championship which is the major flaw with the current situation

premierstone

I'm not really sure why Antrim are getting lumped into this argument at all, quite simply for their own benefit they shouldnt even be in the Liam mccarthy as their nowhere near good enough and getting beating after beating will not help, this is exactly what the christy ring is there for and Antrim, laois and westmeath would have a competitive championship where they could develop properly as apposed to getting hammered year in year out.

podge018

The Ulster hurling championship is a solid 10 team championship isn't it? Taking Antrim out of that would leave the other 9 with nothing to aspire to. Yes it will give Antrim a couple of tougher games v Laois or whatever but does nothing for Ulster hurling. There is no hurling in Connacht only Galway at the moment so putting them in Leinster is of no detriment to the Connacht championship.......... because it doesn't exist.

yahoo_moe

graphene wrote: »

I agree with you that the margin of victory is irrelevant but the current system has still thrown up the following:

Waterford - Lost to Clare but still have the qualifiers - make the Semis
Cork - Lost to Tipp but still have the qualifiers - make the Semis
Galway - Lost to Cork no qualifiers - Out

True - but as I said, it's because Galway don't have a provincial championship to win/lose in. And to the best of my knowledge, the All-Ireland series (run by the GAA on a national level) is technically separate to the provincial championships (run by Munster/Leinster/Connacht/Ulster Councils), but the two are combined for simplicity's sake. Technically, though, the point is that no team can lose in the All-Ireland series and progress.

graphene wrote:

In my opinion why not let Galway and the Ulster Champs (will almost certanly be Antrim, for the next few years anyway) enter the Leinster championship (give Antrim a Bye to the Leinster semis as they still have to win in Ulster).

And presumably make it harder for Leinster teams to win 'their' championship? Doesn't seem right for a county like Dublin where so much underage development is taking place. If you want a change, why not just separate out the provincial championships (however weak/strong they are) from an open-draw All-Ireland series?

graphene wrote:

To allow certain Counties an extra shot at the all ireland (through the qualifiers) and to deny that opportunity to those who dont come from the 'traditional' hurling counties is unfair.

But you're saying Galway (a traditional county) don't get the same chance that, say, Dublin (a non-traditional county) do... so it's nothing to do with the 'traditional' counties being given preference

podge018 wrote:

There is no hurling in Connacht only Galway at the moment so putting them in Leinster is of no detriment to the Connacht championship.......... because it doesn't exist

But it damages the Leinster Championship - and the possibility of having a competitive Connacht Championship in future.

graphene

yahoo_moe wrote: »

True - but as I said, it's because Galway don't have a provincial championship to win/lose in. And to the best of my knowledge, the All-Ireland series (run by the GAA on a national level) is technically separate to the provincial championships (run by Munster/Leinster/Connacht/Ulster Councils), but the two are combined for simplicity's sake. Technically, though, the point is that no team can lose in the All-Ireland series and progress.

Yes but that setup assumes that the Provincial winners are all treated the same while in fact what happens is provincial champions from the two weaker provinces are shunted into the qualifiers while champions from Munster/Leinster get byes all the way to the Semis

yahoo_moe wrote: »

And presumably make it harder for Leinster teams to win 'their' championship? Doesn't seem right for a county like Dublin where so much underage development is taking place. If you want a change, why not just separate out the provincial championships (however weak/strong they are) from an open-draw All-Ireland series?

As a dub myself I think adding Galway to leinster would be a good thing. Dublin are only getting better due to competition and adding Galway (a team Dublin will be competitive against) will enhance that. At the moment the Leinster championship is basically Kilkenny vs. a number of teams that they will easily beat, adding Galway will increase the no of potential opponents for Kilkenny and should give the other counties in leinster room to improve. I know i'd rather see the Dubs against Galway in a competitive game that against someone like Westmeath who have no chance. The best way to improve the chances of someone from Leinster toppelling Kilkenny is to give them proper competition be that Galway or Wexford or Dublin or anyone else who has become a better team by playing other good teams on the way to an "Interprovincial final".

yahoo_moe wrote: »

But you're saying Galway (a traditional county) don't get the same chance that, say, Dublin (a non-traditional county) do... so it's nothing to do with the 'traditional' counties being given preference

Ok then repalce the use of "traditional" with Munster/Leinster and "non-traditional" with Ulster/Connaught. The history a county has in the championship shouldn't matter, everyone should have the same chance of winning an all-ireland

This year to win Kilkenny have already/will have to beat
Offaly
Wexford
Cork
Tipp/Waterford

If they were to win Galway would have to have beaten

Antrim
Laois
Cork
Clare
Kilkenny
Tipp/Waterford

and Kilkenny have the added backup of being able to lose any one of their first 2 games a luxury Galway dont have

yahoo_moe wrote: »

But it damages the Leinster Championship - and the possibility of having a competitive Connacht Championship in future.

How does adding better competition to Leinster damage it? It will allow Dublin/Wexford/Offaly etc. to improve by playing more competitive games which can only be good for Leinster Hurling.

Scootay

Didn't Westmeath, "who have no chance" beat Dublin in the swamp match? Before you throw in the excuses both teams had to play in the same ridiculous conditions.

Dublin should, and probably do, use the league to play against tougher opposition. Adding Galway will do nothing to improve the hurling in the weaker Leinster counties. Promote hurling in Connacht the way they've been doing in Dublin and see how it goes. Roscommon are the current Nicky Rackard holders and I know Sligo and Leitrim compete in that too while Mayo are in the Christy Ring so there is hurling in all the counties to be promoted.

graphene

Scootay wrote: »

Didn't Westmeath, "who have no chance" beat Dublin in the swamp match? Before you throw in the excuses both teams had to play in the same ridiculous conditions.

Dublin should, and probably do, use the league to play against tougher opposition. Adding Galway will do nothing to improve the hurling in the weaker Leinster counties. Promote hurling in Connacht the way they've been doing in Dublin and see how it goes. Roscommon are the current Nicky Rackard holders and I know Sligo and Leitrim compete in that too while Mayo are in the Christy Ring so there is hurling in all the counties to be promoted.

Why would I "throw in the excuses", I know that Westmeath won that game and fair dues to them. In fact the result of that game backs up my point, more competition (and more games in the championship by the addition of galway) in Leinster means teams get better and are more likley to change the status quo.

yahoo_moe

Think Scootay was talking about this:

graphene wrote:

I know i'd rather see the Dubs against Galway in a competitive game that against someone like Westmeath who have no chance.

graphene wrote:

Yes but that setup assumes that the Provincial winners are all treated the same while in fact what happens is provincial champions from the two weaker provinces are shunted into the qualifiers while champions from Munster/Leinster get byes all the way to the Semis

I take your point but that's just because at the moment, they try to weight the All-Ireland series to reflect the difficulty of getting to that point. So Munster/Leinster champions get 'preferential' treatment because they're (rightly) seen as having had more of a test than Galway in getting out of their provinces unbeaten.

Bear in mind that the GAA have been tinkering with the championship's balance since the introduction of the backdoor system and last year we had a four quarter-final system. It's not perfect yet but as I said, I'd still much rather see the provincial championships left alone (or completely abolished, though like people from Munster, I'd miss the Munster Hurling Championship ) to allow for changes in any county's skill level (whether that be Dublin or Roscommon or Kilkenny).

graphene wrote:

How does adding better competition to Leinster damage it? It will allow Dublin/Wexford/Offaly etc. to improve by playing more competitive games which can only be good for Leinster Hurling.

Because in the short term, Galway or Kilkenny will be the only "Leinster" champions and more importantly, there are no guarantees over the long term that it'll be a balanced system (Galway could deteriorate completely and/or Roscommon/Sligo could improve significantly).