Would I be crazy to go for self-funded ATPL in todays climate?

John_Mc

Hi,

I've read the stickies at the top, thanks for such useful information!

I've wanted to be a pilot pretty much all my life, and now that I have my University degree in Computers and 2 years experience under my belt - I am feeling it's now or never if I am to ever achieve my ambition of being an airline pilot.

A friend of mine went self-financed and landed herself a job with Aer Lingus flying A320's. I've talked to her a lot and she's told me to go for it.

My only concern is that today's economic climate is putting a lot of pressure on the Aviation industry, and I don't want to get myself €100k in the red only to find a surplus of experienced pilots job hunting like myself.

Could this be the case or should I be alright if I pursue this dream? I'd appreciate any opinions or suggestions.

Thanks
John

ronnie3585

Short answer - yes.

That's a hell of a lot of personal debt to be incurring in todays economic climate. A few year ago it was possible to give it a shot and if the worst came to the worst you could rely on your education and experience and get a job in back in the sector you wanted to leave (many friends of mine did this successfully, for what it's worth). However these days nobody's job is really safe. You could be left in the situation of having a frozen ATPL, no chance of employment in the airline industry, no chance of employment in your old sector and the bank jumping up and down looking for their money and threating to take your house (I'm presuming you would secure the debt against your house?) Essentially no way out.

Given the price of oil the vast majority of airlines are downsizing, reducing the numbers of aircraft in their fleet, sectors flown a day and ultimately pilots. There are however some that are still hiring. I know a member of Aer Arann who is involved in hiring pilots. They are currently hiring low hours FOs and crying out for captains however he can't see it lasting for much longer.

I don't mean to be too pessimistic but you really have to recognise the serious risks involved. Have you tried the cadetship route? I know a few airlines are taking on cadets and paying for their training etc. Also a know a lot of guy who are in a similar situation as you and are taking the ATPL one piece at a time whilst staying in work and paying the bills. They are just adding things on as they go along like starting with the exams, then taking a few weeks off work to do the CPL, MEIR, MCC individually. It takes longer but it spreads the cost and it will keep you gainfully employed for as long as possible.

Don't ever lose sight of your goal of becoming a pilot but at the same time don't let it cloud your better judgement. Explore all avenues, do your sums, make the right decision that will keep you happy and out of the dole queue! (Easier said than done!)

chickenhawk

If I was you I would stay in your job and go to america for a few weeks and get the PPL (don't heed what people say it is good over there just pick your school wisely).
Then work and study for the atpl's during your spare time. When you finish all that you will be in a better position to see whether you should borrow the rest and go for it or stay in your job and keep chipping away at it.

John_Mc

Hi Guys, many thanks for your replies.

ronnie3585 wrote: »

Short answer - yes.


Given the price of oil the vast majority of airlines are downsizing, reducing the numbers of aircraft in their fleet, sectors flown a day and ultimately pilots. There are however some that are still hiring. I know a member of Aer Arann who is involved in hiring pilots. They are currently hiring low hours FOs and crying out for captains however he can't see it lasting for much longer.

I don't mean to be too pessimistic but you really have to recognise the serious risks involved. Have you tried the cadetship route? I know a few airlines are taking on cadets and paying for their training etc. Also a know a lot of guy who are in a similar situation as you and are taking the ATPL one piece at a time whilst staying in work and paying the bills. They are just adding things on as they go along like starting with the exams, then taking a few weeks off work to do the CPL, MEIR, MCC individually. It takes longer but it spreads the cost and it will keep you gainfully employed for as long as possible.

(Easier said than done!)

You're right, it is a huge amount of money to be borrowing but I'd prefer to do the integrated course rather than modular.
I've been looking at Oxford or FTE as I believe these are very well regarded in the industry.

Could you perhaps p.m me some information regarding the cadet courses? I haven't really investigated this avenue yet.

chickenhawk wrote: »

If I was you I would stay in your job and go to america for a few weeks and get the PPL (don't heed what people say it is good over there just pick your school wisely).
Then work and study for the atpl's during your spare time. When you finish all that you will be in a better position to see whether you should borrow the rest and go for it or stay in your job and keep chipping away at it.

As said above, I'd prefer to do the training all in one go as I believe the Airlines prefer it this way because it's easier to track the pilots progress during training.

Did you go to U.S to get the PPL? If so, can you give me a ballmark figure for how much it cost?

diverdriver

I'd say go for it. If you want to be a pilot, then you'll never be satisfied with anything else and if you put if off you won't be ready when things pick up again. Budget for an Instructors rating too. That will keep you flying and build your hours. Many airlines look for at least 500 hours. After an integrated course you won't have many hours. That's what I'm doing now. Everyone tells me that just training for an Instructors improves your flying skills no end. So you could go back to the proper job while waiting, yet keep your skills up instructing on your days off.

I know a few airlines are taking on cadets and paying for their training etc

That's not true. Sponsored cadetships are a thing of the past except for a couple of small operators. The RVL group in Coventry and Highland Airways do sponsor pilots. But of course that ties you to fly their aircraft.

ronnie3585

diverdriver wrote: »

The RVL group in Coventry and Highland Airways do sponsor pilots. But of course that ties you to fly their aircraft.

That's who I primarily had in mind - airline was probaby a poor choice of word! I believe FlyBe are still offering a cadetship, Lufthansa used to operate one but I'm not sure if it's still going? Other than that the only other way to get someone else to pay for your flying is to be lucky/good enough to get into the aircorps of the RAF.

diverdriver

According to their website, FlyBe only offer part sponsorship at OAA and Cabair. Which is something I suppose. Other than that the best you can expect is for them to pay for the MCC. To be honest if I could afford to go to OAA or Cabair. I wouldn't tie myself just to FlyBe.

The Air Corps is tough to get into and the RAF requires their aircrew to be British born these days. So unless you're from the North that's out too.

There's no real shortcuts anymore, I'm afraid.

wittymoniker

I've been looking at Oxford or FTE as I believe these are very well regarded in the industry.



As said above, I'd prefer to do the training all in one go as I believe the Airlines prefer it this way because it's easier to track the pilots progress during training.



airlines don't give a toss where you trained, as a new joiner you are a licence on a seat, doesn't matter how you came up as long as you have the qualifications.

do it at your own pace, do a PPL first and see how you like it, it might not be for you.

with the industry the way it is you will need to log some hours (500) before anyone will look at you so plan to be in singles for a while. get into it for the right reasons, ie. because you like to fly, not with the goal of a getting a jet job, just have fun with it.

Steyr

My mate is flying EIN ( AerLingus ) A320's too, he went on his own merit through BAe in Jerez, Spain, He said it's extremely expensive to go on your own.

John_Mc

wittymoniker wrote: »

I've been looking at Oxford or FTE as I

airlines don't give a toss where you trained, as a new joiner you are a licence on a seat, doesn't matter how you came up as long as you have the qualifications.

do it at your own pace, do a PPL first and see how you like it, it might not be for you.

with the industry the way it is you will need to log some hours (500) before anyone will look at you so plan to be in singles for a while. get into it for the right reasons, ie. because you like to fly, not with the goal of a getting a jet job, just have fun with it.

I've been reading up on the way recruitment works over on PPRUNE, and it differs from you in regards to the how airlines operate. They seem to pay great attention to the way you obtained your licenses, so it's not simply a case of having hours - although they obviously help greatly.

Just look at the way OAA trains you up as an airline first officer, and not simply a pilot (albeit it with good hours). I can only assume this holds value as many airlines such as FlyBe, BA, XL etc use the OAA for their cadet schemes. And I have heard nothing but good things about the place.

I'm 100% confident that I want to fly airliners because I've taken it as far as I can without forking out the €€€ for training. I was seriously into flight simulation for about 7 years using the most realistic & complex addons with online networks such as Vatsim. Reading & studying SOPs, charts, navigation, doing more than a bit of online ATC etc etc etc. Trying to make it as realistic as possible.

I know that this is only simulation, but the fact is that I have a fairly good idea of what's involved in flying an aircraft for an airline. The reason for starting this post was to evaluate the industry in terms of recruitment opportunities over the coming years.

This is the critical factor which could see me be happy with my career for the rest of my life, or paying off a €100k loan for the nexts 20 years

John_Mc

Steyr wrote: »

My mate is flying EIN ( AerLingus ) A320's too, he went on his own merit through BAe in Jerez, Spain, He said it's extremely expensive to go on your own.

Yeah FTE in Jerez is 102k for frozen ATPL including accom & 3 meals a day :eek:

BostonB

John_Mc wrote: »

I've been reading up on the way recruitment works over on PPRUNE, and it differs from you in regards to the how airlines operate. They seem to pay great attention to the way you obtained your licenses, so it's not simply a case of having hours - although they obviously help greatly.

Just look at the way OAA trains you up as an airline first officer, and not simply a pilot (albeit it with good hours). I can only assume this holds value as many airlines such as FlyBe, BA, XL etc use the OAA for their cadet schemes. And I have heard nothing but good things about the place.

I'm 100% confident that I want to fly airliners because I've taken it as far as I can without forking out the €€€ for training. I was seriously into flight simulation for about 7 years using the most realistic & complex addons with online networks such as Vatsim. Reading & studying SOPs, charts, navigation, doing more than a bit of online ATC etc etc etc. Trying to make it as realistic as possible.

I know that this is only simulation, but the fact is that I have a fairly good idea of what's involved in flying an aircraft for an airline. The reason for starting this post was to evaluate the industry in terms of recruitment opportunities over the coming years.

This is the critical factor which could see me be happy with my career for the rest of my life, or paying off a €100k loan for the nexts 20 years

Lifes a gamble isn't it. Theres people going to be losing that on property very soon. Its more about the lifestyle, than the flying tbh. Living a bit like a nomad, going where the work is, rather than where you want. If it doesn't work out, at least you tried, and instead of buying a place you'll be renting. If it works out, happy days. Theres also the chance that bad heath, like eye or heart problems might give you a short career or the industry goes bust. But if you could predict the future....

John_Mc

BostonB wrote: »

Lifes a gamble isn't it. Theres people going to be losing that on property very soon. Its more about the lifestyle, than the flying tbh.

Yes it certainly is, but it's always best to assess the risk before putting the money down eh.

I have my degree and 2 years solid experience in software development, so if it all goes belly up I'll that to fall back on.

Steyr

John_Mc wrote: »

Yeah FTE in Jerez is 102k for frozen ATPL including accom & 3 meals a day :eek:

But think of the Rewards!:)

BostonB

John_Mc wrote: »

Yes it certainly is, but it's always best to assess the risk before putting the money down eh.

I have my degree and 2 years solid experience in software development, so if it all goes belly up I'll that to fall back on.

You'll never make the money pilots do working as a code monkey. Especially not in India. I have a few friends who are pilots, captains etc, and they were moaning about their jobs. One even went as far as doing a few interviews. He got a big shock at the drop in salary he could expect. Hes stopped moaning since.

Climate Expert

BostonB wrote: »

You'll never make the money pilots do working as a code monkey. Especially not in India. I have a few friends who are pilots, captains etc, and they were moaning about their jobs. One even went as far as doing a few interviews. He got a big shock at the drop in salary he could expect. Hes stopped moaning since.

It would be the same if an experienced programmer was offered an entry level job in an airline. Big salary drop. Good IT guys would be on similar if not more money to the top airline pilots.

BostonB

Climate Expert wrote: »

It would be the same if an experienced programmer was offered an entry level job in an airline. Big salary drop. Good IT guys would be on similar if not more money to the top airline pilots.

There can't be many "Top" IT people on 200k plus and massive pensions. I would say thats more in line with company directors and CEO's. Besides we were talking about programmers. But tbh I don't know people in IT at that level. Most I'd know of is around 100k.

expediateclimb

There are no pilots earning those type of figures. A commercial pilot is not the high paying job you think it is and in the present climate it is defin not worth getting into serious debt over.

Have you considered working a few years and saving up the fees. It can be done if you budget accordingly

jmayo

John_Mc, I knew a guy who now flies for Socttish operation who found an ideal way of progressing his flying and achieving his ATPL.
He continued working as programmer, but was only going for short term contracts e.g 3 months, 6 months, albeit working all over Europe.
He saved during those periods and then he went off and done training, hour building etc.
He did this back in the glory days of Telecoms/IT pre 2001, so it may not be that easy to get the suitable work and the contracts today.

Anyway just an idea.

John_Mc

expediateclimb wrote: »

There are no pilots earning those type of figures. A commercial pilot is not the high paying job you think it is and in the present climate it is defin not worth getting into serious debt over.

Have you considered working a few years and saving up the fees. It can be done if you budget accordingly

Well my plan was always to get a degree and experience to go with it before pursuing this ambition. Now that I've got this far, I don't really want to push if off any longer.

I certainly don't think it will be possible to save the required funds for training in any reasonable amount of time. I'm on an OK salary at the moment but living in Dublin so saving any significant amount of money takes time.

I havent really looked into Pilot salaries as this is not really the important thing for me. Being a pilot is just something I've always wanted to do.

John_Mc

jmayo wrote: »

John_Mc, I knew a guy who now flies for Socttish operation who found an ideal way of progressing his flying and achieving his ATPL.
He continued working as programmer, but was only going for short term contracts e.g 3 months, 6 months, albeit working all over Europe.
He saved during those periods and then he went off and done training, hour building etc.
He did this back in the glory days of Telecoms/IT pre 2001, so it may not be that easy to get the suitable work and the contracts today.

Anyway just an idea.

Hi, yes Contracting would certainly be an option as the money can be really good & it's flexible. I hadn't really considered this as an option but it's definitely worth looking into thanks!

diverdriver

John,
You are right about OAA they are excellent and certain airlines like to hire the best of their ex students but they most airlines really don't care. But despite what many think, you won't walk into an airline job straightaway. You can save a lot of money by avoiding integrated courses and going modular. You avoid a huge debt and you have money left over to pay for a rating from, say Ryanair. Which to be honest is where most of us will end up eventually. As for the flight sim experience, forget it. It's a game. The reality is much different. Go get your PPL, see if you like flying in a real aeroplane. Then decide. There will be jobs available, Ryanair will continue to hire, so will Aer Arann. The way to look at becoming an airline pilot is like this. It's just a job, you train for the job and then you apply to companies needing pilots. Eventually you get a job. It's not that complicated really.

John_Mc

diverdriver wrote: »

John,
You are right about OAA they are excellent and certain airlines like to hire the best of their ex students but they most airlines really don't care. But despite what many think, you won't walk into an airline job straightaway. You can save a lot of money by avoiding integrated courses and going modular. You avoid a huge debt and you have money left over to pay for a rating from, say Ryanair. Which to be honest is where most of us will end up eventually. As for the flight sim experience, forget it. It's a game. The reality is much different. Go get your PPL, see if you like flying in a real aeroplane. Then decide. There will be jobs available, Ryanair will continue to hire, so will Aer Arann. The way to look at becoming an airline pilot is like this. It's just a job, you train for the job and then you apply to companies needing pilots. Eventually you get a job. It's not that complicated really.

Ah I know Flight sim is only a game, but it certainly places me in a more educated position about what I'm getting myself into.

I've had my introductory flight a few years back and loved it. Is going Modular that much cheaper than integrated? I mean type rating on 738's for Ryanair is meant to cost ~€25k

skybus

There can't be many "Top" IT people on 200k plus

There are no pilots earning those type of figures.

I posted the figures on another thread a little while ago. 206k is the year 24 basic salary for an Aer Lingus pilot. This is before all other flying pay such as a structued performance pay in the region of 30k per year and sector pay of 12k. Company contribute a further 21% of your basic salary into your pension. Overall it comes to around 290k per annum for a normal line pilot not involved in training etc. I also posted that I don't know if salaries like this are sustainable in the long term for new entrants into the industry but for the moment there are airlines paying that kind of the money. Other airlines around Europe paying similar top basic salaries at the present time are:

British Airways (£144 439 sterling)
Main Line Air France (€200,000k+)
Luftansa (€217,500),
KLM (€206,000k)
Virgin Atlantic (£105,098 sterling).

These figures are before extra diems and pension contributions.

In relation to the topic I don't think now is a very good time to start training. There is alot of consolidation in the market at the moment and very few airlines will be expanding in the short term. The only jobs in the so called 'career' airlines will be those to replace people retiring at the top end of the ladder. I have been through a few downturns in the industry and it always comes good again. Patience is all it will take. As regards training it will be all about timing. For example Aer Lingus were due to recruit approximately 60 new pilots between now and the end of this year. This has been put off with only a handful being taken on. There was also a memo sent out last year which contained an article from the training department saying they were considering starting a mentored training course again similar to the cadet courses of years ago to meet some of it's future recruitment needs. . This training would no doubt be either in Oxford or Jerez. The only difference this time round being that the cadet would have to contribute upfront to the cost of the training rather than start on a cadet entry salary with you paying your training costs back to the company over a number of years.

There hasn't been anything mentioned about it in the past few months. If things turn around, which it will in time then i'm sure it will be considered again.

diverdriver

Yes modular is cheaper. Even OAA do a modular course. So you can compare. The only real difference is the PPL and hour building. Whether integrated or not you have to spend some time simply flying around by yourself until you have enough hours to start training for the CPL. It's a lot cheaper to go to America and simply rent a plane rather than pay over the odds in an integrated course.

expediateclimb

skybus wrote: »

I posted the figures on another thread a little while ago. 206k is the year 24 basic salary for an Aer Lingus pilot. This is before all other flying pay such as a structued performance pay in the region of 30k per year and sector pay of 12k. Company contribute a further 21% of your basic salary into your pension. Overall it comes to around 290k per annum for a normal line pilot not involved in training etc.

Skybus, I stand corrected. Thanks for the figures, I had no idea that some pilots were getting that much. I agree that in the current climate I would not think that those salaries are sustainable.

As regards saving for intergrated training, it is possible to do it in a relatively short period. My salary is not huge and I have managed to save over two thirds of the cost in the past 2 years. I should have the full amount to go integrated in oxford by this time next year provided the cost does not go up significantly between now and then. I'm not saying that it was easy as my social life has pretty much become non existent over the period but it will be worth it and I will come out the other end debt free

Climate Expert

there are airlines paying that kind of the money

These are all the old unionised flag carriers. A relic of older days.
The future is in Ryanair and they certainly won't be paying out that sort of cash to ancient pilots.

skybus

These are all the old unionised flag carriers.

"The future is in Ryanair"

The future is far from just Ryanair. These are exactly the airlines that Ryanair and Michael O Leary talks about when he says that there will only be four or five major airlines in Europe in a few years. So yes there will always be these large legacy carriers who will be paying close to that money. Being unionised has nothing to do with it. People seem to think that an airlines profits hinge on what it pays its pilots. They form only a tiny fraction of an airlines annual costs although its a perception amongst people that they are the make or break of a company. We are no different to employees of other companies in other industries. As Michael O Leary himself has acknowledged the big four airlines of the future in Europe will be Luftansa, British Airways, KLM/Air France, Ryanair and to a lesser extent a fifth may extend to Iberia. Smaller airlines and I hate to say it Aer Lingus will more than likely be absorbed into these airlines in the future. At at the moment all the above mentioned airlines are profitable.

Like I said above, I think now is not a good time to start training. It may be different in a couple of years again. I suspect it will be. Timing like I said above is the key.

Mr Benevolent

Ryanair is now asking 35 of its captains to take unpaid leave (max 5 months) to save costs.

UrbanFox

Financially, you are better putting your soul in to hock for a few years under a cadetship than going private and being in hock to a financial institution for a loan.

Mentioning no names, there are people who spent large amounts of money on the "private education" route only for their flight school to collapse and cease trading. If that happened you would still be left with the loan to be repaid and nothing to show for it.

Did you ever think about military flying ? I don't know what the minimum time terms are for a short RAF commission these days but it might be worth a look.

BTW before anyone asks what is wrong with the Irish military the answers are nothing and variety of flying options !!!


The financial risk has to be a major consideration these days given the uncertainties that abound all around...

pilot1087

www.pilotjobsnetwork.com is a great place to check salaries

I sent you a PM John

diverdriver

Did you ever think about military flying ? I don't know what the minimum time terms are for a short RAF commission these days but it might be worth a look.

Sorry Urbanfox, that's not an option for Irish people anymore. I'll even quote myself.

The Air Corps is tough to get into and the RAF requires their aircrew to be British born these days. So unless you're from the North that's out too.

There's no real shortcuts anymore, I'm afraid.

That route has been closed for many years now for most Irish, going back to the eighties. Which is a real pity. It's amazing how many people still don't realise it's no longer possible for Irish citizens to fly for the RAF unless you have been born in Britain and thus have British citizenship.

workaccount

Climate Expert wrote: »

It would be the same if an experienced programmer was offered an entry level job in an airline. Big salary drop. Good IT guys would be on similar if not more money to the top airline pilots.

Hi,
Just to let you know this is 2008 not 2001. ie. Pre dot com crash.

Let me know of one IT job that pays 150k +

In fact I think there's very few who go anywhere near 100k unless your contracting.

UrbanFox

diverdriver wrote: »

Sorry Urbanfox, that's not an option for Irish people anymore. I'll even quote myself.


That route has been closed for many years now for most Irish, going back to the eighties. Which is a real pity. It's amazing how many people still don't realise it's no longer possible for Irish citizens to fly for the RAF unless you have been born in Britain and thus have British citizenship.

Wow, didn't realise that. Bummer.

Could Irish citizens join the Royal Navy and then try to train as RN pilots or is that closed off too ?

diverdriver

Pretty much the same. You need to be a British citizen or subject or whatever.

olegso

To make cheaper the time building I'd advise to check www.avioservice.eu. It is JAA flight training school, who provide the airplanes for just 75GBP per hr.
Not all hrs can be done so cheap (no multi-engine, night), but most still can be done. Accomodoations etc are cheap. I've used their services and quite satisfied.

georgemacfly

I'm in the middle of an aviation degree course with the pilot training college, did 8 months in florida flying and lectures in waterford institute of technology. Doing my IR and instructor rating soon. It took a lot a work to get to position where I could fund a course but I always knew its what I was going to do and I'm right happy to be on my way.

In response to the title of the post, its not crazy - its the only way for an Irish person to get into an airline these days (and if the airlines were paying, there standards would rule me out, I'm no tom cruise! and need glasses). The best airline involvement you'll get these days is a mentored cadetship where they pay a bit and guarantee a job, some of the guys in my class were doing that with FlyBe - seriously talented though.

Anyone looking to be a pilot just go take a lesson, plenty of schools around Ireland that do casual flights. Once your up there you'll know if its for you. Fire away with any questions here or PM, I remember well how confusing it all seemed in the beginning.

donkey balls

georgemacfly wrote: »

I'm in the middle of an aviation degree course with the pilot training college, did 8 months in florida flying and lectures in waterford institute of technology. Doing my IR and instructor rating soon. It took a lot a work to get to position where I could fund a course but I always knew its what I was going to do and I'm right happy to be on my way.

In response to the title of the post, its not crazy - its the only way for an Irish person to get into an airline these days (and if the airlines were paying, there standards would rule me out, I'm no tom cruise! and need glasses). The best airline involvement you'll get these days is a mentored cadetship where they pay a bit and guarantee a job, some of the guys in my class were doing that with FlyBe - seriously talented though.

Anyone looking to be a pilot just go take a lesson, plenty of schools around Ireland that do casual flights. Once your up there you'll know if its for you. Fire away with any questions here or PM, I remember well how confusing it all seemed in the beginning.

George why would you put all your eggs in the one basket by training as a pilot&doing a degree in the same industry especially the way things are here&over in the UK.

georgemacfly

donkey balls wrote: »

George why would you put all your eggs in the one basket by training as a pilot&doing a degree in the same industry especially the way things are here&over in the UK.

I hear ye donkey, times aint so good at the moment to say the least! I did my homework though (see link below) and built up a few contacts in the industry most of which said it gets a bit dull after 10years or so . . . hence the degree, its in business subjects mostly so I figure management in a nice little airline in the Caribbean or somewhere equally sunny

Anyhew, saying flying is putting all my eggs in one basket is like sayin breathing only oxygen is putting all my eggs in one basket, tis impractical but so are most love affairs!

http://www.seattlepi.com/business/313681_pilotshortage30.html

unclecessna

I am a Pilot myself and am near finishing my training through the modular route.

It's always been my ambition since I was a youngster, came very close to getting into the Air Corps and a few airline cadet schemes when I was younger and when those options where more readily available.

Money aside which is a huge consideration and is always a monkey on your back when you are training, most people overlook other key obstacles that you will come up against.

Firstly it's more than likely if you go for it you will end up doing a lot of your training overseas(training in Ireland is more expensive and is frustrating with the weather) and this means you will spend a lot of time in lonely locales far from the support of your family and friends - and believe me this does negatively affect everyone.

Many people then find they can't hack one or other aspect of the studies. Most get their PPL but some fall by the wayside when they reach their ATPL groundschool exams. Some realise this just isn't something they would like to do as a career. Then others who have past these two hurdles and the expense that went with them find they can't hack the Instrument Rating which is challenging to attain. So it's really an upward curve in difficulty all the time and you will feel the burn.

My advice is take over a month off work when you can and do an accelerated PPl course in the USA and following that see how you feel. Feel free to pm me about good schools that I can recommend to you.

Even if you do an intergrated course afterwards most do knock off some of the price if you already have a PPL. Also intergrated courses make you do pre-entry apptitude tests. These are a double-edged sord in my opinion. It feels good when you pass them but that can make you feel overconfident about commtting to a very expensive course so be careful there. I have seen people meet their financial downfall with that one.

Anyways best of luck.

brownmini

John_Mc wrote: »

Yeah FTE in Jerez is 102k for frozen ATPL including accom & 3 meals a day :eek:

It has been known for some well known airlines to come to Jerez and view the training records of the very good cadets.
Some of those then get interviewed etc. The good ones get offered jobs.