Sin in Christianity (Christian response thread)

philologos

Firstly can I request that this is a Christian response thread, as this is something that I have been having difficulty with personally.

How do we determine what is and what is not sinful, and where do we derive our ideas of what is sinful. Just curious. Some people refer to the Torah to what is sinful, and casually reject the ceremonial and the judicial Law. Some of us only recognise the New Testament in determining what is sinful. It seems more like a juggling act at times than a coherent system of Biblical law.

Just wondering the thoughts of other Christians on this.

BrianCalgary

There are two aspects to sin: doing things we shouldn't, and failing to do things we should (James 4:17).

I dont think it matters what we do sin wise as we all do sin. What matters is whether or not we are allowing teh Holy Spirit to transorm us into the likeness of Christ.

If we focus on following Christ, by loving Him and loving others I think we'd get a lot more accomplished as opposed to focussing on our sin and seeking absolution.

Focussing on our own absolution takes the focus off doing what God wishes us to do and we become self centred in our approach to life.

I hope that makes some sense.

Asiaprod

Jakkass wrote: »

Firstly can I request that this is a Christian response thread, as this is something that I have been having difficulty with personally.

Make it so, happy to return your kindness for you action with the women in the priesthood thread:)

philologos

Brian I hear what you say as not referring so much to what is indeed sinful and focusing on living a Christlike life, but when Paul tells me as a Christian to be dead to sin and come to life in Christ, and when he says in the book of Romans that through faith we uphold the law I feel a need to remain faithful to God as He has remained faithful to me.

wolfsbane

Jakkass wrote: »

Firstly can I request that this is a Christian response thread, as this is something that I have been having difficulty with personally.

How do we determine what is and what is not sinful, and where do we derive our ideas of what is sinful. Just curious. Some people refer to the Torah to what is sinful, and casually reject the ceremonial and the judicial Law. Some of us only recognise the New Testament in determining what is sinful. It seems more like a juggling act at times than a coherent system of Biblical law.

Just wondering the thoughts of other Christians on this.

The NT gives us the fullness of God's will for us, allowing us to distinguish the continuing 'moral' laws from the temporary ceremonial/civil laws of the OT.

Where no specifics are dealt with, we have principles to guide us; for example, Is it OK to live in luxury? - this can be determined by the individual for himself by applying the principle of love to God and our fellowman.

Can we justify this indulgence - our social position may require us to live at a certain level (Government, for example)? Should we spend it rather on promoting the gospel and helping the needy? If the latter, then it is sin to spend it on ourselves.

Of course, God is not a miser, and gives us many good things to enjoy, so we are not to feel we must live on porridge and live in a cave. Being led by the Spirit, we will be able to make the necessary distinctions for ourselves.

PDN

Jakkass wrote: »

Firstly can I request that this is a Christian response thread, as this is something that I have been having difficulty with personally.

How do we determine what is and what is not sinful, and where do we derive our ideas of what is sinful. Just curious. Some people refer to the Torah to what is sinful, and casually reject the ceremonial and the judicial Law. Some of us only recognise the New Testament in determining what is sinful. It seems more like a juggling act at times than a coherent system of Biblical law.

Just wondering the thoughts of other Christians on this.

I think that the primary factors in determining if something is sinful or not are
a) Does it displease God?
b) Does it harm others?
c) Does it harm myself?

Some sins, such as worshipping idols, would seem to be more a case of simply displeasing God.
Others, such as theft or adultery obviously hurt other people.
Others, such as viewing pornography, hurt yourself more than anyone else by eroding your own appreciation of the value and uniqueness of the gift of sexuality within marriage (although it could also be argued that you are helping sustain an industry that exploits others).

The relationship of the Old Testament to the New is always interesting, but allows room for debate. I do, believe, however, that we can follow a coherent pattern for reading the Old Testament in the light of the New. I teach our church people to ask the following questions about any Old Testament law or commandment:

1. Is it repeated and reinforced in the New Testament? (idolatry)
2. Is it abrogated in the New Testament? (circumcision, keeping the sabbath)
3. Is it clearly ceremonial rather than moral? (not eating shellfish)
4. Does it refer to a no longer existent cultural practice? (building a little wall round your roof to stop sunbathers rolling off - hardly applies in Ireland)
5. Is there an underlying principle that can be updated to our culture? (the command to help your neighbour when his donkey falls over can still apply to helping him when his car breaks down).

santing

There is a very good "working" definition in Romans 14. The context is eating and drinking esp. of sacrificed food. It finishes with "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Christianity is not so much an exercise to avoid sinning (because we will fail here) but an "exersize" to walk with God, to walk in faith.

Rom 14:16-23 ESV So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. (17) For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (18) Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. (19) So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. (20) Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. (21) It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. (22) The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. (23) But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

kelly1

Jakkass wrote: »

Firstly can I request that this is a Christian response thread, as this is something that I have been having difficulty with personally.

How do we determine what is and what is not sinful, and where do we derive our ideas of what is sinful. Just curious. Some people refer to the Torah to what is sinful, and casually reject the ceremonial and the judicial Law. Some of us only recognise the New Testament in determining what is sinful. It seems more like a juggling act at times than a coherent system of Biblical law.

Just wondering the thoughts of other Christians on this.

Good question Jakkass. You obviously you're concerned about doing God's will faithfully and good for you

There are disagreements among Christians especially in the area of sexuality e.g. is masturbation, contraception or IVF. These areas aren't explicitly addressed in Scripture. Fortunately for us God's providence has given us a visible Church which has the authority to teach morality and the Church's moral teachings are contained in the catechism. We have been given all we need to know and do God's will.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you [apostles] all truth.

John 10:16 He that heareth you [apostles], heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 18:17. And if he will not hear them: tell the church [apostles/bishops]. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

God bless,
Noel.

philologos

Thanks a lot for your posts. I think it's time I read the Bible again I might notice things I didn't notice the last time.

Edit: kelly1, where can I get a copy of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church then, it might make for interesting reading.

santing

kelly1 wrote: »

We have been given all we need to know and do God's will.

Yes, and that is the great thing about being a Christian!

1Co 3:16 ESV Do you [Christian] not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
1Jn 2:27 ESV But the anointing [of the Holy Spirit] that you received from him [God] abides in you [Christian], and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in him.

kelly1

Jakkass wrote: »

Edit: kelly1, where can I get a copy of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church then, it might make for interesting reading.

It's at http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

I think you'll find that it's very scriptural.

wolfsbane

kelly1 said:

There are disagreements among Christians especially in the area of sexuality e.g. is masturbation, contraception or IVF. These areas aren't explicitly addressed in Scripture. Fortunately for us God's providence has given us a visible Church which has the authority to teach morality and the Church's moral teachings are contained in the catechism. We have been given all we need to know and do God's will.

Christians like myself hold that the Scripture has given all we need to know and do God's will. It gives principles where it does not give specifics.

I'd be interested to hear if the RCC's specific moral teachings are as 'infallible' as its dogmas, or have they changed with the times?

kelly1

wolfsbane wrote: »

kelly1 said:

Christians like myself hold that the Scripture has given all we need to know and do God's will. It gives principles where it does not give specifics.

Based on your knowledge of Scripture, are masturbation and contraception morally right or wrong?

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'd be interested to hear if the RCC's specific moral teachings are as 'infallible' as its dogmas, or have they changed with the times?

Dogma covers matters of faith and morals so if it's dogmatically defined, you'll find that the teachings have never changed.

santing

kelly1 wrote: »

Based on your knowledge of Scripture, are masturbation and contraception morally right or wrong?

I think masturbation was already discussed in another thread. Regarding contraception, maybe we should take one step back and think about Birth control in general first.
I like the following artile:
http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45862

santing

kelly1 wrote: »

Based on your knowledge of Scripture, are masturbation ... morally right or wrong?

See http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055280829&highlight=masturbation&page=2

kelly1

santing wrote: »

I think masturbation was already discussed in another thread. Regarding contraception, maybe we should take one step back and think about Birth control in general first.
I like the following artile:
http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45862

OK, so that's some guy giving his own opinion on the matter but how do we know the will of God? Nobody can afford to be complacent about something which might offend God and could be a mortal sin. It's also important to know whether there are (mortal) sins that can drive the Holy Spirit from our souls.

santing wrote: »

See http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055280829&highlight=masturbation&page=2

Yes, I made a small contribution to that thread. I think most people were of the opinion that masturbation is OK as long as you're not fantasising about someone who's not your spouse. But it's not our will that matters, it's God's.
It might seem harmless to us but is it offensive to God? Everyone assumes that Onan was killed for failing to impregnate his brothers wife. But you could easily argue that it was the spilling of his seed that offended God. I see masturbation as an abuse of the sexual faculty.

santing

Kelly1,

It is indeed a grave matter and we need to know the will of God in this! In my previous reply I tried to steer back a little, and first establish what the purpose of sex is in general.

In the animal world the purpose of sex is procreative, creating new offspring. For humans, the purpose of sex is different.

In our current society sex is mainly used as a means of self-fulfillment and self-pleasure, which has created a new emphasis on masturbation: "if I feel good, it must be good." At primary school sex eductaion is even done with this rule in mind: do you feel good about it, than it must be OK.

The sex mad society we live in now is clearly a response to the past, where enjoyment of sex was seen as sin. (may exagerated...)

A Biblical view of sex is that it is the full reflection of the image of God, and God has given it such. (Gen 2:24; Mat 19:5,6; 1 Cor 6:16; Eph 5:31)
When the Bible speaks about sex, it speaks about this beautiful relationship between husband and wife, and indicates that any form of sex outside of this relationship is sexual immorality.

1 Thes 4:1-8 ESV Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. (2) For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. (3) For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; (4) that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, (5) not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; (6) that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. (7) For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. (8) Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Inside that relationship the Bible does not give us any rules - anything goes, as long as it is a reflection of God's love (so that excludes rape in a marriage!) This is beautifully illustrated in the Song of Songs.

Bottomline, I think the question is driven by the notion that sex is meant for procreation, and then anything hindering procreation during the sexual intimacy is wrong. But Sex is not just for procreation, it is not just for pleasure, it is the display of the beauty of God's nature, especially of God's love in the live of a married couple. (and yes, it gives (lots of) pleasure, and yes, it can produce offspring)

BrianCalgary

Jakkass wrote: »

Brian I hear what you say as not referring so much to what is indeed sinful and focusing on living a Christlike life, but when Paul tells me as a Christian to be dead to sin and come to life in Christ, and when he says in the book of Romans that through faith we uphold the law I feel a need to remain faithful to God as He has remained faithful to me.

I agree wholeheartedly with remaining faithful to God. The question is how do we do that?

I'm preaching this weekend and I sort of address the issue of remaining faithful to God.

It is our responsibility to make disciples and to grow His church by doind so. God has given us all gifts to use in order to accomplish the disciple making.

For me, my gifts lie in teaching, faith, evangelism, pastoring and preaching. I have been entrusted by God to use these gifts to glorify Him.

If I don't I am letting Him down.

wolfsbane

kelly1 said:

Based on your knowledge of Scripture, are masturbation and contraception morally right or wrong?

Since masturbation was not covered in the wide-ranging prohibitions of the Mosaic Law, and is not mentioned in the NT, I take it the act itself is OK.

What would make it a sin would be where it involved the mental imaging of an actual person - since such desiring anyone other than one's spouse is specifically condemned by Christ.

Contraception also is not prohibited in either Testaments. The insistence on a mandatory link between sexual love and procreation is just a commandment of men, not of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I'd be interested to hear if the RCC's specific moral teachings are as 'infallible' as its dogmas, or have they changed with the times?
Dogma covers matters of faith and morals so if it's dogmatically defined, you'll find that the teachings have never changed.

Are all Rome's moral teachings dogmatically defined? What does it have to say about a woman marrying a man unable to have penetrative sex due to an injury, for example? Is the marriage valid? Is he permitted to sexually fulfil her manually and orally, or are they to live as brother and sister?