Divine Providence...

kelly1

*** Christian only respones please ***

Hello folks,

I've been wondering about the subject of Divine providence for a while. I'm basically trying to understand how much God is in control of our lives.

The way I see it there is positive providence where God provides for our basic needs e.g. food, air, water etc to everyone under the sun.

Then there are those who try to do God's will and maybe they go "off course" and God corrects them through privation of something they want. e.g someone really wants a better job with more money but God knows this will only draw that person further from Him and God arranges things so that person is passed over.

Then there is the person who doesn't make God a part of his or her life and commits evil acts with no regard for God's laws. God could punish this person by making the lives difficult. e.g someone thinks they will find happiness in drink, drugs, unlawful sex etc. God could make life miserable for this person in the hope that they would turn to Him out of despair. This is often seems to be the case.

I've read a few times that everything that happens to us is part of God's will but how far do we take this? I can understand for example that God might give a couple a child who is wheel-chair bound in order to teach the parents charity and patience.

But what about someone who suffers an horrific accident or someone who is
raped? Could this possibly be part of God's plan?

Any insights would be welcome.

Romans 8:28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

I've read a few times that everything that happens to us is part of God's will but how far do we take this? I can understand for example that God might give a couple a child who is wheel-chair bound in order to teach the parents charity and patience.

But what about someone who suffers an horrific accident or someone who is
raped? Could this possibly be part of God's plan?

Any insights would be welcome.

Noel, I don't believe that God would give a couple a handicapped child just to teach them a lesson. Nor do I believe rape or any other kind of violence is part of God's plan for us.

I do believe that God gives us the grace to see Him work for good in even the most tragic circumstances, but not that He deliberately inflicts those things on us in the first place.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

Noel, I don't believe that God would give a couple a handicapped child just to teach them a lesson. Nor do I believe rape or any other kind of violence is part of God's plan for us.

I do believe that God gives us the grace to see Him work for good in even the most tragic circumstances, but not that He deliberately inflicts those things on us in the first place.

Thanks PDN.

I realize that evil isn't part of God's plan but the fact is that humans do commit evil and this evil can be turned into good by God.

Lets say someone is a devout Christian and has a serious accident in which they are confined to a wheel chair for the rest of their lives. Doesn't Romans 8 tell us that God allowed the accident to happen and that this person should not be angry with God and accept the "accident" as a personal cross. This suffering can be offered up in union with Jesus' passion for the salvation of souls. By bearing this trial with acceptance, the person is actually afforded a chance to grow in virtue and merit.

I not saying that I know God causes or allows suffering. I'm trying to understand all aspects of providence, good and bad.

santing

Noel,

I think you already have a good grasp of God's providence. God does not do evil or create evil, but there is no evil that can outpower God. He will work everything for good for those who love Him.

kelly1 wrote: »

Doesn't Romans 8 tell us that God allowed the accident to happen and that this person should not be angry with God and accept the "accident" as a personal cross.

As Romans 8 says:

Rom 8:35-39 ESV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? (36) As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." (37) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. (38) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And

Php 4:13 ESV I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

And finally:

Jas 1:2-4 ESV Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, (3) for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. (4) And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

kelly1

I suppose my questions bring up the subject of chance and luck. Do things happen by chance? Is there such a thing as good or bad luck?

Or does everything happen for a reason. I'm struggling with this question

What say ye?

santing

From a note in my Bible:

Chance
The idea of chance in the sense of something wholly fortuitous was utterly foreign to the Hebrew creed. Throughout the whole course of Israel's history, to the Hebrew mind, law, not chance, ruled the universe, and that law was not something blindly mechanical, but the expression of the personal Yahweh. Israel's belief upon this subject may be summed up in the couplet,

Pro 16:33 ESV The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

it is noteworthy that of the classical words for chance, συντυχία, and τυχē, never occur in the Bible.

I complete agree with this. Change is foreign to the Bible, it cannot co-exist with an Almighthy, Omniscience God.

kelly1

santing wrote: »

From a note in my Bible:
[..........]
I complete agree with this. Chance is foreign to the Bible, it cannot co-exist with an Almighthy, Omniscience God.
[/SIZE]

Does this mean then that if a brick falls on someone's head and injures or kills them, it's God's will?

santing

kelly1 wrote: »

Does this mean then that if a brick falls on someone's head and injures or kills them, it's God's will?

The law of graphity is God's will, the amount a normal head can take is in God's will - but it is not God's will that anyone is lost.

All the same the accident will not be outside of God's plan - however gruesome it is.

kelly1

santing wrote: »

The law of graphity is God's will, the amount a normal head can take is in God's will - but it is not God's will that anyone is lost.

All the same the accident will not be outside of God's plan - however gruesome it is.

OK so we agree that God is absolutely opposed to sin.

Can we take it then that God is responsible for all natural disasters? Is it God's will that people were killed in the 9/11 attacks even though God didn't want the terrorists to fly the planes into the WTC?

I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just trying to understand how much God is behind events in the world.

Apart from the verse in Proverbs, is there anything else in scripture about chance?

I'm inclined to think that if there was far less sin in the world, the God in His
goodness would prevent natural disasters.

santing

kelly1 wrote: »

OK so we agree that God is absolutely opposed to sin. Can we take it then that God is responsible for all natural disasters? Is it God's will that people were killed in the 9/11 attacks even though God didn't want the terrorists to fly the planes into the WTC?

This boils down to the aged old question, where does evil come from? That's a question that would deserve its own discussion!

Gen 3:17 ESV And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life.

The earth is cursed because of Adams sin, so in some sense you can say that it is Gods will (that the earth is cursed) because we humans should not live on a perfect world and be sinners ourselves. Yet it was not Gods intention that Adam would sin, and it is never Gods intention that you or I sin. But whatever happens in life, God can use our broken intentions and make His beautiful picture with it.

There are some beautifull illustrations about this:

Joseph Gen 50:20 ESV As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Esther: Est 4:14 ESV For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?"

and principles:

1Co 10:13 ESV No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
Jas 1:13 ESV Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just trying to understand how much God is behind events in the world.

We know that God will use natural disasters to judge the world in the futrue, and that He has used natural disasters in the past. This doesn't mean however that every natural disaster is a direct punishment from God - but as always God can (an will) use it to bring forth His glory.

Amo 3:4-8 ESV Does a lion roar in the forest, when he has no prey? Does a young lion cry out from his den, if he has taken nothing? (5) Does a bird fall in a snare on the earth, when there is no trap for it? Does a snare spring up from the ground, when it has taken nothing? (6) Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it? (7) "For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. (8) The lion has roared; who will not fear? The Lord GOD has spoken; who can but prophesy?"
Luk 13:2-5 ESV And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? (3) No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (4) Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? (5) No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Joh 9:3-4 ESV Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. (4) We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.
Joh 11:4 ESV But when Jesus heard it he said, "This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

kelly1 wrote: »

Apart from the verse in Proverbs, is there anything else in scripture about chance?

That's hard ... I found one other one:

Isa 65:10-12 ESV Sharon shall become a pasture for flocks, and the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down, for my people who have sought me. (11) But you who forsake the LORD, who forget my holy mountain, who set a table for Fortune and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny, (12) I will destine you to the sword, and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter, because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not listen, but you did what was evil in my eyes and chose what I did not delight in."

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm inclined to think that if there was far less sin in the world, the God in His goodness would prevent natural disasters.

I don't belief we are currently living in a period of direct government of God, i.e. more evil doesn't equal more judgment and less evil doesn't equal less judgment. Disasters are in the world because sin (in RC terms: original sin) has affected all mankind and the whole of creation.