Libertas

Brendan777

Greetings

I voted NO to Lisbon.


I wish to post some comments about Libertas, Lisbon, EU etc

First: It is very possible to contact Libertas with any questions, I found that emails direct to Declan Ganley were the best route, he replied very quickly and comprehensively. I sent some questions I had regarding reservations about Libertas, I then took his answers and compared them to my own research. During my research I found that Indymedias articles about Libertas and Ganley were not only factually inaccurate, they also bordered on the hysterical, propaganda without substance. They make such a big deal about Rivadas board of directors and Ganleys line of business, Ganley never tried to hide these facts, his business is the provision of communications technology to the American military and intelligence services. I will try not to go into detail about that here, that is not the purpose of this post. Here is Ganleys address for those who are interested. dganley@libertas.org

Second: I personally found it quite disconcerting when I realised that the American Neo-cons rejoiced at Ireland’s rejection of Lisbon. I decided to find out why. My research is still ongoing so feel free to correct me on any of these points and / or elaborate on them. However I believe that ive got some accurate information here. If Lisbon was passed the United States would no longer be able to make unilateral strategic and military alliance with member states of the EU, they would no longer, for example, be able to make an alliance with the UK and invade, for example, Iraq. If the US wanted Europeans to assist in the rape and pillage of small defenceless countries it would have to negotiate with the EU as a whole. I will leave it up to the reader to decide if this would be a good thing. Also Lisbon would severely reduce American influence in Europe, for example the American patronage of Kosovo. Regardless of your opinion on Kosovo’s declaration of independence America’s interference in the affairs of a county that is part of Europe cannot be prevented without Lisbon.

I voted no because I believe the Lisbon treaty does not provide a more accountable, democratic and fair Europe. I also voted No because of my total distrust of the Irish political class, the fact that we effectively live in a one party state give little chance to vent ones frustration. I also voted no because I didn’t want t to see the militarization of the EU.

However I am no longer so sure how to vote if there is a second referendum, from my research, and looking at Lisbon from a global perspective, it is beginning to seem that a No vote is serving the interests of the United States, not Europe. I know there are many reasons to vote no just as surely as I know that the silly arguments put forward by groups like Coir and PBP hurt the No side.

There will be a 2nd referendum

I am now an undecided voter…yet again…

Cheers

Tim Robbins

Brendan777 wrote: »

If Lisbon was passed the United States would no longer be able to make unilateral strategic and military alliance with member states of the EU, they would no longer, for example, be able to make an alliance with the UK and invade, for example, Iraq.

I think you need to do some more research. Don't know where you got that from.

Brendan777

Would you like to elaborate, or do you prefer to make comments and run...

oscarBravo

Brendan777 wrote: »

During my research I found that Indymedias articles about Libertas and Ganley were not only factually inaccurate, they also bordered on the hysterical, propaganda without substance.

Care to share your research?

I voted no because I believe the Lisbon treaty does not provide a more accountable, democratic and fair Europe.

Do you believe the Lisbon treaty provides a less accountable, democratic and fair Europe?

I also voted No because of my total distrust of the Irish political class, the fact that we effectively live in a one party state give little chance to vent ones frustration.

I could be misinterpreting, but are you saying that your "no" vote was a protest vote against the government?

I also voted no because I didn’t want t to see the militarization of the EU.

What, in Lisbon, would cause the "militarization" of the EU?

Brendan777

Reply to Oscar

1. Go to indymedia website, loads on Lisbon, all info there

2. Yes I believe Lisbon provides a less accountable and less fair EU than we have now, I have no desire to go over the treaty debates once again, maybe you should do some research of your own

3. Yes part of my reason for voting No was a protest vote, if thats an issue for anyone maybe you gota look at why so many people were influenced by this thinking

4. Once again do your research, increased military spending by all EU member nations is part of the Lisbon treaty

oscarBravo

Brendan777 wrote: »

1. Go to indymedia website, loads on Lisbon, all info there

Is that your only research source?

2. Yes I believe Lisbon provides a less accountable and less fair EU than we have now, I have no desire to go over the treaty debates once again, maybe you should do some research of your own

Believe me, I have. I've also read pretty much every post that's been made on this forum since its inception. Telling me to do some research of my own is a less than compelling argument.

But, having already done my research: you're wrong.

3. Yes part of my reason for voting No was a protest vote, if thats an issue for anyone maybe you gota look at why so many people were influenced by this thinking

There's only one logical time to make a protest vote against the government, and that's in a general election.

4. Once again do your research, increased military spending by all EU member nations is part of the Lisbon treaty

Wrong again.

Brendan777

Oscar

1. no it wasnt my only research site

2. telling you to do your own research is a very relevant statemant because: a) as I said I have no desire to go over the arguments of the treaty again , and b) from your statements you are obviously badly informed. reading posts on this site hardly represents a thorough exploration of Lisbon and its consequences, I have discussed this matter withn Ganley, the people before profit crowd, B.Laffan from UCD, Sinn fein reps, Gay Mitchell etc, I also have friends who are members of labour

3. Regarding protest vote: In your opinion a general election is the correct place for a protest vote. I and many other irish citizens dont seem to agree with you. As I said this is effectively a one party state, who in their right mind would want Enda kenny as our leader, and labour are useless, that leaves only one choice. Even the Greens realised this when they sold out their principles to gain power.

4. Re military spending: I am not wrong, have a look at the treaty my friend, you are obviously recieving misinformation from misinformed people.

oscarBravo

Brendan777 wrote: »

1. no it wasnt my only research site

Then it's a bit pointless sending me there when I ask you to share your research, isn't it?

2. telling you to do your own research is a very relevant statemant because: a) as I said I have no desire to go over the arguments of the treaty again , and b) from your statements you are obviously badly informed. reading posts on this site hardly represents a thorough exploration of Lisbon and its consequences, I have discussed this matter withn Ganley, the people before profit crowd, B.Laffan from UCD, Sinn fein reps, Gay Mitchell etc, I also have friends who are members of labour

I discussed it with Elvis, Ghandi and God. I'm not going to tell you what they said, do your own research.

3. Regarding protest vote: In your opinion a general election is the correct place for a protest vote. I and many other irish citizens dont seem to agree with you.

I know people who don't agree with me that the Earth is round, and that it took more than a week to make it. I don't set much store by their opinions.

As I said this is effectively a one party state, who in their right mind would want Enda kenny as our leader, and labour are useless, that leaves only one choice. Even the Greens realised this when they sold out their principles to gain power.

Ah, right. So you vote Fianna Fáil, then stick it to them by voting against their referendum. Brilliant.

4. Re military spending: I am not wrong, have a look at the treaty my friend, you are obviously recieving misinformation from misinformed people.

Nope. I'm right, you're wrong. Go do some research.

Brendan777

Oscar

Thats actualy quite sad that you had to stoop to such childish levels, I thought we were having an intelligent exchange. It was obviously too much for you.


Brendan

oscarBravo

Brendan777 wrote: »

I thought we were having an intelligent exchange.

Wrong yet again. "I'm right, I'm not going to tell you why I'm right, do your own research" doesn't constitute intelligent debate.

SamuelMarino

Hi

First I am not Irish and did not get to vote. However I am very interested in Lisbon. Your post made some very good points Brendan, the American angle isnt one I did consider before. Unlike you I think Ireland should say YES to Lisbon.

I also agree that Oscar does not know much. His words are silly (Elvis). Maybe he is not very smart.

Thank you for making me think and reflect Brendan.

Good Luck

Samuel

Brendan777

Oscar

This is my last reply to you. I would like to suggest to you that you could try having a discussion that doesnt involve a keyboard, my guess is that you dont get that opportunity much. Your immaturity and gibberish disappoints me. You totaly misunderstood the intention of my origional post, when really the intention is very clear. Your interest is in trying to score imaginary points on an internet forum rather than having a proper debate and discussion where we could possibly learn from each other, I am always open to learning and correction. I have said enough.

And no I have never voted Fianna Fail as it happens old chap.


Brendan

Tim Robbins

Brendan777 wrote: »

3. Yes part of my reason for voting No was a protest vote, if thats an issue for anyone maybe you gota look at why so many people were influenced by this thinking

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks like this. It's the most immature thinking out there. Referendums costs us tax payer's money, political time and if all you want to do is waste it and subvert it for some obscure agenda, you can't expect people to take you seriously, mate.

There are plenty of other ways to protest. Most of which are more constructive than protest voting at referendums.

Apologies.

Brendan777

Thanks Samuel

If you are interested in a discussion please post again. Where are you from? Are you European?

And yes there seems to be something not quite right with Oscar, I think you are right when you say "not very smart"

Brendan

oscarBravo

...aand, we're done.

Brendan777, please read the charter before posting again.