Care workers from the Philippines

Im based in the Philippines and Im thinking of starting a program to send qualified nurses to Ireland to be live-in care workers for the elderley and disabled.

In comparison to retirement homes and other forms of care workers I think this would be significantly cheaper around 150-200 euro per week cost to the caree + room and board for the nurse and travel costs. I beleive the minimum for a home at the moment is around 650euro per week, and that would be at the low end.

The other benefits are of course are not having the elderly person having to leave their home and being sent to one of these retirement places and the trauma that would bring alongside taking away those guilty feelings of the children who send them there!

Id be interested to hear comments on the pro's and con's of this. Whether people think that it would be a very desirable service at that kind of price, and would there be any barriers of entry that would make it difficult for me to do this kind of thing.

Would this also be good for disabled people? Do those of you disabled get good support from the government, in that the cost of local care workers is subsidised so you pay very little for services?

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

In comparison to retirement homes and other forms of care workers I think this would be significantly cheaper around 150-200 euro per week cost to the caree + room and board for the nurse and travel costs. I beleive the minimum for a home at the moment is around 650euro per week, and that would be at the low end.

Not everyone has space for a live-in carer.

I don't know how pricing structures work but 40 hours x €8.65 hour minimum wage = €346 so your calculations are immediately suspect.

Nursing homes are capable of providing 24x7 care that a single carer can't.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Not everyone has space for a live-in carer.

I don't know how pricing structures work but 40 hours x €8.65 hour minimum wage = €346 so your calculations are immediately suspect.

Nursing homes are capable of providing 24x7 care that a single carer can't.

Im basing my calaculations on Filipino salaries. The average wage here is about 150 euro per month without room and board (if they can get a job). If they are being paid for example 100 euro per week, plus room and board that is a seriously good wage for them they would bite your hand off for. The 346 euro would have the room and board factored into it.

What is you say about the 24/7 is an issue alright, I suppose it would come down to the level of care the individual needed and if a worker like this was capable of handling that level of care

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

If they are being paid for example 100 euro per week

That would be illegal.

The 346 euro would have the room and board factored into it.

But the client is providing this room and board. It would still cost the client €346 (minimum), not the €150-200 that you suggest.

Add travel, insurance, work permits .... your profit margin and suddenly €650 for 24x7 cover is much more appealing.

Well it depends on how you look at it Victor.

For example: The law says that worker must get 346euro per week minimum. So lets say my company offers the Filipino a package that is valued at 346 per week that includes room, board and 100 cash.

Now you could say that providing this accomodation to the Filipino is "worth" 200 euro per week (lets just assume they have a spare room). However in real terms if an elderly person is living alone in a house with a few bedrooms it doesnt really cost them anything for someone to be sleeping in one of those rooms aside from electricity.

As far as board is concerned that is debatable on how much it costs to feed someone in ireland a week. could you estimate it at 50 euro?

So in real terms the numbers are 100 cash, 50 food, say 20 for electricity, and factor in 50 euro profit for the company - so fees are 150 + 70 other costs.

Even bump it up to 250 per week. and 1 return flight a year for the care worker to the philippines. estimate 1000 euro, and perhaps 400euro in visa and processing fees. So in the first month the clients total real costs are 2400 euro (the same price as the most basic retirement home). After that its 250 per week, saving 400 (1600 per month, 19,200p/y) With the benefits of company and avoiding the other traumas mentioned earlier which I think are very hard to measure how much things like that actually mean to a person

I can imagine an elderly person who is being moved into a retirement home by their kids or whoever is not exactly thinking they have a lot to live for anymore. I could be wrong. At least in their own home they are in their comfort zone.

Insurance is a question alright

RainyDay

Can I just make sure that I've got this right? You're asking for advice from other readers of this forum as to the best ways to evade Irish minimum wage legislation ? And you're equating a live-in carer in a domestic setting (domestic beds, no hoists, no medical equipment, limited room to move around beds, no lifts, etc) with 24x7 support in a residential environment?

RainyDay

RainyDay wrote: »

Can I just make sure that I've got this right? You're asking for advice from other readers of this forum as to the best ways to evade Irish minimum wage legislation ? And you're equating a live-in carer in a domestic setting (domestic beds, no hoists, no medical equipment, limited room to move around beds, no lifts, etc) with 24x7 support in a residential environment?

I wouldnt expect anything else from you rainy day then a depressing skewered negative viewpoint. Instead of getting Filipino's jobs at 3 to 4 times the salary of a decent job in their own country, so they can send home money to improve the life of they families, you see it as evading irish minimum wage. You have Filipinos working in dubai 12 hour days in 45 degrees of heat on construction sites to get $150 US per month. What Im considering is not only beneficial to the worker but also potentially the caree if this is indeed a desirable service


Im not suggesting it for people needing specific types of medical assistance as they would obviously need certain facilities around them. Im talking about for elederly who may have difficulty doing shopping, cooking, cleaning while also having the benefit of a qualified nurse to help them look after themselves ie. bathing etc along with company and the previous benefits mentioned earlier.

RainyDay

This is modern day slavery wrapped up in a pile of patronising nonsense. You'd struggle to feed a large dog for €7 per day in Ireland, and yet he is planning on feeding a person for this. It is clear from the tone of the posts that the OP is trying to find ways to evade minimum wage legislation. Any carer in a live-in situation is going to be on call 24x7, so calculations based on an 8 hour day are completely flawed.

And he pretends that he's doing them a big favour? Let's hope that Filipinos aren't as dumb as the OP expects to allow themselves to be exploited in this way.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yeah, offering people the chance to work in another country earning far more than they could ever dream of earning at home.... what a bastard.

Rev Hellfire

Actually it seems like the OP is trying to offer a competitive service to those offered by nursing agencies here.

Its no different than say an IT company in India subcontracting their workers on placements here, both parties can do quite well out of the arrangement. The workers get a good salaries at home while the company can afford to aggressively price their services in the Irish market.

As for the OP question, we avail of nurses at home and receive funding from the HSE towards it. We typically look for night cover, the day we can do ourselves. Before the age of 4 we also availed of Jack and Jill which allowed us a 20 hours a week nursing cover. For us the availability of nurses is more an issue than the cost.

FreedomJoe

Sound likes to me the sad story of more immigrants coming to Ireland working for slave labour, putting Irish and Polish out of jobs and a ever increasing unemployment figure!

We dont need any workers from the phillippines. We have enough people in ireland available to do these jobs!

FreedomJoe

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Actually it seems like the OP is trying to offer a competitive service to those offered by nursing agencies here.

Its no different than say an IT company in India subcontracting their workers on placements here, both parties can do quite well out of the arrangement. The workers get a good salaries at home while the company can afford to aggressively price their services in the Irish market.

As for the OP question, we avail of nurses at home and receive funding from the HSE towards it. We typically look for night cover, the day we can do ourselves. Before the age of 4 we also availed of Jack and Jill which allowed us a 20 hours a week nursing cover. For us the availability of nurses is more an issue than the cost.

You seem to forget that the Indian workers coming over here are no longer living in India, they are in fact living in Ireland and will have to pay to live here like the rest of us. So how then could a basic wage be enough to pay for them to live? Unless of course you suggest they live in a hostel, and live on basic rations every day?

Rev Hellfire

FreedomJoe wrote: »

You seem to forget that the Indian workers coming over here are no longer living in India, they are in fact living in Ireland and will have to pay to live here like the rest of us. So how then could a basic wage be enough to pay for them to live? Unless of course you suggest they live in a hostel, and live on basic rations every day?

A basic wage is enough when you have the ability to expense items back home.
Its a pretty standard arrangement in body shops I've worked for over the years.

CtrlSource

i'm a little confused about the costing of this business model. Perhaps the OP would be able to clarify?

Suppose you pay them minimum wage and they won't have rental costs since they're live in anyway. What do you, as the 'agent', plan to charge the consumers of the service you're proposing to provide?

Will these carers be automatically licensed to work in their profession here or will they need to pass exams / complete coursework to get accredited in Ireland?

FreedomJoe

FreedomJoe wrote: »

Sound likes to me the sad story of more immigrants coming to Ireland working for slave labour, putting Irish and Polish out of jobs and a ever increasing unemployment figure!

We dont need any workers from the phillippines. We have enough people in ireland available to do these jobs!

With respect Joe I dont think there are any Irish workers who would be willing to do this job at the price, and it wouldnt be putting anyone out of work. Its not even close to a question of slave labour, we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world. If I put an add in the paper for this job at that salary I would probably have hundreds of thousands of calls it would be that desirable. So slave labour it certainly is not. You would need to visit places like the philippines to fully understand this. Sitting in ireland where everything is handed to you on a plate will give you a muddled perspective on what is desirable for people in 2nd and 3rd world countries

Ctrl, the licenses etc are a question that needs to be answered alright. Im not looking at this as an hourly rate its got to be a salary, it cant be calculated on a hourly because then it wouldnt work out. Social time etc for the worker would have to be worked out on an agreeable basis so that the caree's needs are looked after. From the workers side its not a perfect scenario but some sacrifices would need to be made on the social life side of things.

Its a complicated plan in the sense that there are a lot of small issues involved which might make it too much of a headache. Im pretty sure its a desirable service just hard to know if it would be a smooth and successful business

deevey

I found this thread, and am utterly disgusted on the terms you are thinking of.. for a number of reasons ..

1) 24/7 care is unrealistic for any one person to handle, as stated before nursing homes are established for this reason and if the person is this ill they require 24/7 care an in-house carer is not the solution.

2) The wages you propose are less than an Au pair, who would do light housework and mind the kids in the evening - in fact a friend of mine from thailand is doing this right now and earning 500 euro per month.

3) No social life whatsoever for the worker, any-one person would go insane if they were expected to work 24/7 (being on-call is bad enough!)

4) No prospect of saving for a future at home, sending money home or to better her / his life in this country - this is the MAIN reason for filipino workers going overseas in the first place.

5) I think you underestimate the cost of living in this country.

Now I believe there are solutions if you are willing to cut your costs or increase the costs to the employer, by a small amount....

1) 39 hour working week in house + on-call in case of emergency's, hours to be agreed but not expected to stay indoors all day.

2) Minimum 130 euro per week wages (after tax if any+prsi) + room/board + flight home once a year.

Broken down -

Basic costs of employing
_________________
130 - Salary
100 odd per month for ticket home
Room to stay
Food costs

Additional costing to be factored
_________________
Visa costs
Your insurance costs
Your slice off the top

3) Medical insurance paid by the agency - it may be possible to arrange in the philippines .. although i think it will only cover a maximum of 6 months outside the RP

Its still a low wage, but incentives to the workers would be able to

1) Save / send money home.

2) Do extra courses at night if they so wish, or apply for irish nursing exams - obviously a minimum contract would need to be drawn up to avoid them leaving soon as they get the exams, in fact this could be your selling point!.

3) Enable them to "live" in this country - not just survive as you are suggesting with your "small social sacrifices "

While the philippines wages are unbelievably low, its also possible to survive on relatively little in comparison to here.

My girlfriend for example, will be a qualified doctor there in a few months, and will probably start off @ around 300 euro (if even) a month as a hospital resident, some nurses can earn more, especially in the private carer sector for the many retiree's there... however, broken down she could have...

a) A small apartment/flat (300 - 400 sq ft) to herself, 100 euro
b) A Social Life at weekends- 50 euro (thats 50+ beers BTW!!)
c) Reasonable(ish) hours - no worse than a junior doctor here anyhow.
d) A full fridge - 100 euro
e) Enough for a few little extra's... whatever is left
f) Opportunity of a second job or extra hours if she need's extra cash.
g) Friends and Family - priceless
h) Decent weather ! - priceless
i) Riding a jeepey drunk @ 4am priceless

She could of course live in shared accommodation with people she doesn't know, have no social life, and work 24/7 ... and earn more than you are proposing filipino's leave their country and family behind for.

I reckon if you really want to try this you really have to factor the human social / factor / monetary properly.

Also factor in that the government there may be stepping in to prevent licensed professional workers leaving the country, which means that the nurses in question will have experience as well as exams and working as a proper nurse would be a much better option for them.

I can totally understand this, as we visited a hospital there that quite literally had no staff ! (or patients thankfully).

Also 2 years the government is proposing gives them the time to apply overseas for "proper" positions rather than leaving and trying to get everything rushed as soon as they leave college - of course this still isn't law yet, and will probably only affect newly enrolled graduates in around 3-4 years.

Food for thought

snorlax

im moving this to the work as it´s a more appropriate forum

Lobelia Overhill

I'm on Carer's Allowance, looking after both of my elderly/disabled parents for the last ten years. For some reason I was only ever paid the single rate, and subsequent efforts on my part to have this rectified have failed as I need my mother to sign a form and she is refusing to do so. I've been told [by a doctor] that my mother is mentally ill, but she did nothing to help me out. It originally took me the best part of two years to get D'Mother to sign the form.

I'm quoting this post because it's succinct and not to have a go at the OP or anyone else...

1) 24/7 care is unrealistic for any one person to handle, as stated before nursing homes are established for this reason and if the person is this ill they require 24/7 care an in-house carer is not the solution.

A relation on Carer's is the 'alternate' to a care home - and from what I can tell is the preferred way to deal with the elderly.
I'm expected to provide 24/7 care to two elderly people, one is nearly blind, partially deaf, developing dementia and is unable to walk. The other is mentally ill (and verbally abusive), housebound and causes a lot of problem with her behaviour.

Just this last year I was finally put in contact with a social worker who has helped me greatly, she managed to persuade my parents to go into a home so that I could take a holiday and I had the whole of April off. However my Da went ballistic in the Home and I can't persuade him to go again.

I have two brothers, one lives about an hour's drive away, the other lives in the UK, I have asked them several times to help and have been sworn at. Any other relations aren't in contact with me often enough for me to have the neck to ask them for help, and besides they have their own lives to be getting on with...

I've been advised of entitlements, that I've never seen the back of. I'm allegedly supposed to have been given training in caring for the elderly, but haven't (unless I've paid for a course provided by a carer support group)
I'm supposed to get 12 weeks respite a year, where and how is not known [to me].
"Everyone" tells me I'm allowed a Home Help. I applied for one and was told I wasn't entitled to one. My parents might be entitled to one but I have to hand over all their financial information and I don't have access to half of the stuff, and they won't give it to me.

A few months ago I put my back out (not for the first time) I was in agony and in no state to dress myself much less care for my parents, I phoned the Public Health Nurse in hopes of some assistance, she couldn't do anything. I ended up having to pay someone €15 an hour to do the shopping for me. I couldn't afford to pay her to do anything more than that.

I wanted to get a downstairs bathroom turned into a "wet room", I got an estimate and a form, I've been given conflicting information (from People In A Postition To Know What They Are talking About [and not some fella in the pub]) as to what I'm supposed to provide in the line of estimates, diagrams, finacial information etc etc etc. One said I just fill out the form, the form says you need to provide X,Y and Z. I pointed this out, and was told the form was wrong, so I tried to hand it in and was asked for X, Y and Z, I said I'd been told I was only supposed to fill the form in...
In the end I gave up as it was impossible to get a straight answer.

3) No social life whatsoever for the worker, any-one person would go insane if they were expected to work 24/7 (being on-call is bad enough!)

Tell me about it. I have chronic long term Depression, drugs did nothing but cause me problems, my social life revolves around chatting online, or to the people who work in the shops in town. I've asked numerous People Who's Job It Is To Help Me for whatever assistance I can get, and nothing has been forthcoming. Latest was that I can have a volunteer from an Alzheimer's Society to come "baby sit" so I can go shopping or something *is still waiting*

So to answer the Original Post, I'd be only to bloody happy to pay someone 100 a week!

eth0_

I don't think elderly people would be comfortable with a total stranger moving into their house on a permanent basis to care for them. I think most would rather have a carer who comes round for a certain number of hours per week, or a care home.

OP - you'll probably find you have to register your company with the local health board who may not give you a license when they see how little you're planning on paying the care staff.

Also don't forget you'd have to form a company in Ireland and pay Irish tax which will eat into your overheads too.

mikemac

OP, are you expecting only one care worker per home. So they are expected to work 24/7?
Never get a day off? What about holiday entitlements?
What about rest periods, European Working Time Directive? Maybe care workers are exempt but nobody can work 24/7 for months on end.

I think you started this thread in good faith but I'm pretty disgusted with what I've read so far.