Coucilors making decisions on unrealistic speed limits

pastyp

I have a friend (sounds urban myth like but I do have a friend) who is a FF councilor in North Dublin. He was at a council meeing recently where they were deciding on the speed limit for a small stretch of 2 lane dual carriageway. General concensus was to put the speed limit at 60KLM per hour. My friend suggested 80KLM per hour. He was frustratingly voted down. :mad:

I've been frustrated so many times with unrealistic speed limits and Gardai waiting to catch drivers in these areas - shooting fish in a barrel syndrom, I agree with 80klm or even 100klm on these types of stretches of road.:mad:

Long story short the decision was made to put it at 60klm per hour and the response from his fellow FF councilors was that they pick the lowest speed they can get away with. If he wants to make a deal of it and insist on 80klm per hour then they advised him that opposing councilors FG, SF, and labour would make political mileage out of him if there was an accident on that stretch of road in the future.

So the reason we endure unrealistic speed limits is because our spineless local councilors won't put their political necks on the line in case they are scape goated for putting in place realistic speed limits. My friend is equally frustrated with the council and his own FF councilors and suggests the only way to get speed limits revised is to petition the council (in large numbers) for a change/review of speed limits.

Any one think this is worth persuing in all your local areas? Or should we just sit back and allow it to happen. I am thinking of when the speed cameras come in and these things are placed strategically at entrances and exits of towns or on two lane dual carriageways where the speed limit is suddenly set to 60 or 40 klm per hour for small stretches.:mad:

What does everyone think?

Paparazzo

Wonder how many signatures or letters is needed to get it changed? There was one in Finglas that was 30mph (betwen the 2 foot bridges) which was impossibly slow but the cops were always there. It changed to 40mph which was still really slow. Funny, sometimes I do 1000km in a weekend, usually on smaller roads and it's normal to never see a speed camera out. It's always in the same rediclious sections of road, 2/3 lanes, no traffic lights, perfectly safe to do 100kph etc

Guy:Incognito

Paparazzo wrote: »

It's always in the same rediclious sections of road, 2/3 lanes, no traffic lights, perfectly safe to do 100kph etc

and much safer to allow for gob****es who drop anchors at the merest site of a Gard , with or without a speed camera , whether they are over or under the limit.

The speed camera that was on the M50 at the Tallaght on ramp is a prime example. Speed limit posted for a mile or so back as 60. Most traffis was used to this so slowed in plenty of time (it gave plenty of notice) yet just at the lines on the road, brake hard down to about 40. Idiots.

T-Maxx

The councillors vote to enforce the speed limit as advised to them by the council's transportation department, which (in the case of a 2 lane dual carriageway) would most certainly be based on the consulting engineer's design recommendation.

astraboy

Since when are dual carriageways designed for only 60kph? People can cycle as fast as that. Nice earner for the local traffic corps in the future, keeping the evil despicable speeders doing 70kph off the road.:rolleyes:

cyclopath2001

astraboy wrote: »

Since when are dual carriageways designed for only 60kph?:rolleyes:

60kph or approximately 40mph is a fairly normal limit for large trunk roads in built up areas that are deemed safe enough for it. Noise, number of junctions, traffic volumes and local pressure may be factors in the decision. Under ideal conditions, I'm sure faster might be safe but then we'd have to have electronic signs with variable speed limits according to conditions.

Better safe than sorry.

Victor

pastyp wrote: »

I have a friend (sounds urban myth like but I do have a friend) who is a FF councilor in North Dublin. He was at a council meeing recently where they were deciding on the speed limit for a small stretch of 2 lane dual carriageway. General concensus was to put the speed limit at 60KLM per hour. My friend suggested 80KLM per hour. He was frustratingly voted down. :mad:

What was the profession advice?

Why are you so coy about identifying the road?

Some two-lane dual carriageways in Dublin:

Parnell Street
Summerhill
O'Connell Street
College Green (part)
Bridgefoot Street (most)
High Street
Nicholas Street
Lower Clanbrassil Street (part)
Lower Baggot Street (most)
East Wall road (part)
Mulvey Park, Dundrum
Orwell Road (part)
Coldcut Road
Mount Drummond Avenue

So the reason we endure unrealistic speed limits is because our spineless local councilors won't put their political necks on the line in case they are scape goated for putting in place realistic speed limits.

And rightly so.

I am thinking of when the speed cameras come in and these things are placed strategically at entrances and exits of towns or on two lane dual carriageways where the speed limit is suddenly set to 60 or 40 klm per hour for small stretches.:mad:

No such speed limit as 40km/h.

cyclopath2001

Victor wrote: »

What was the profession advice?Some two-lane dual carriageways in Dublin:

Also, St John's Road West (beside Heuston Station), where the AA wanted the limit increased to 60 despite heavy volumes of pedestrians and car/taxi/bus pick-up/drop off. The City Council wisely faced down the self-appointed motorist lobby group on that occasion.

mikemac

Why are councillors making these decisions?
Surely it should be engineers or someone from the RSA.

L1011

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Also, St John's Road West (beside Heuston Station), where the AA wanted the limit increased to 60 despite heavy volumes of pedestrians and car/taxi/bus pick-up/drop off. The City Council wisely faced down the self-appointed motorist lobby group on that occasion.

No matter what you try, you can't twist an organisation with 100,000+ members to being "self-appointed".

ART6

micmclo wrote: »

Why are councillors making these decisions?
Surely it should be engineers or someone from the RSA.

I agree.

Perhaps there are a few considerations about how speed limits should be decided:

1. Modern motor vehicles can stop in distances undreamed of when the 30 mph limit was first conceived.
2. Driver's reaction times have not changed since that limit was conceived.
3. A vast amount of research has been conducted into driver behaviour and competence, reaction times, etc.

All of that suggests to me that the setting of speed limits should not rely upon elected and unqualified councillors, some of whom will have political agendas. It should be determined by qualified people and be based upon the science available at the time.

Rowley Birkin QC

T-Maxx wrote: »

The councillors vote to enforce the speed limit as advised to them by the council's transportation department, which (in the case of a 2 lane dual carriageway) would most certainly be based on the consulting engineer's design recommendation.

Since when have councillors paid anything other than lip service to reports and conclusions drawn up by trained and qualified professionals??

The new planning legislation being announced today and the Monaghan councillors who brought about the need for it being a case in point.

pburns

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Also, St John's Road West (beside Heuston Station), where the AA wanted the limit increased to 60 despite heavy volumes of pedestrians and car/taxi/bus pick-up/drop off. The City Council wisely faced down the self-appointed motorist lobby group on that occasion.

You are the most agenda-driven contributor I have ever seen on these boards. Whenever there's the merest mention of a topic like this you pop up to spout your own myopic brand of anti-speed zealotry.

And you have the sheer brass neck to call the organisation that is the AA 'a self-appointed lobby group' :eek:

Pffft...:rolleyes:

Get thee a life...:P

maidhc

T-Maxx wrote: »

The councillors vote to enforce the speed limit as advised to them by the council's transportation department, which (in the case of a 2 lane dual carriageway) would most certainly be based on the consulting engineer's design recommendation.

Like the way they planning decisions they make are informed by the city planners!?!

No, the council attracts a certain kind of parochial idiot that generally lacks the slightest inkling of intelligence or common sense. Even if not downright corrupt, most of them will make decisions based on what they think will sound best on the local radio phone in show rather than what is actually best for the general populus.

cyclopath2001

MYOB wrote: »

No matter what you try, you can't twist an organisation with 100,000+ members to being "self-appointed".

Except that they're not members, they're customers. The AA is no longer a mutual and has not been for some time. I am an AA customer and they don't represent my views. I pay for their services, that's all.

JHMEG

Quarryvale anyone?

maidhc

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Except that they're not members, they're customers. The AA is no longer a mutual and has not been for some time. I am an AA customer and they don't represent my views. I pay for their services, that's all.

The AA generally sings off the same hymn sheet as the RSA etc (which is evidence enough they don't represent motorists!). But you are right, they don't represent motorists than Hibernian do.

Steve

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Except that they're not members, they're customers. The AA is no longer a mutual and has not been for some time. I am an AA customer and they don't represent my views. I pay for their services, that's all.

I agree, they're gone to pot as well since they changed. I left them and now use the free breakdown assistance that comes with my insurance. Haven't had to use it yet though. /touches wood.


Wow, I just agreed with cyclopath:eek:
I'm scared.




/on topic

I think this should be taken out of the hands of the local councilors and given to a single group of engineers - along with road signage. There is far too much inconsistency for such a small country.

Victor

Speed limits are a function reserved for the council.

maidhc wrote: »

The AA generally sings off the same hymn sheet as the RSA etc

I think the best way to understand the AA is that it represents some motorists - its just that few people know who those motorists are. I think it the ones from the 1930s who want all the other road users out of their way. Because they agree with the RSA on certain points doesn't make either of them wrong on any particular point.

In 2003-2004, while I was on the city council transport committee, the AA and the SIMI wanted the city council to increase certain speed limits. A consulting engineer who specialises in speed limits did a report, discounting the vast majority of them. Council management were in agreement with the report, as was the transport committee. Bye-laws were drafted and agreed by the transport committee and the city council.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Also, St John's Road West (beside Heuston Station), where the AA wanted the limit increased to 60 despite heavy volumes of pedestrians and car/taxi/bus pick-up/drop off. The City Council wisely faced down the self-appointed motorist lobby group on that occasion.

Not to mention the taxis doing u-turns and the trucks going into the railway yard.

ART6 wrote: »

Perhaps there are a few considerations about how speed limits should be decided:
1. Modern motor vehicles can stop in distances undreamed of when the 30 mph limit was first conceived.
2. Driver's reaction times have not changed since that limit was conceived.
3. A vast amount of research has been conducted into driver behaviour and competence, reaction times, etc.

4. The resilience of granny to being struck by a vehicle has not improved over time.
5. "Now wheres the setting for sending several text messages at the same time ...." **SMACK**

Jonty

There's a 30kph zone in both Portarlington and Abbeyleix

Andrewf20

I saw a 10km/hr speed limit during road works recently. I jog faster than that! The road was clear apart from some cones on the left, the road works looking no more serious than what you would usually find. You'd swear we were navigating a mine field.

pastyp

Fair realistic speed limits = the vast amount of motorists sticking to them and not breaking the limit.

It is frustration at stupidly low unrealistic speed limits that leads to motorists ignoring them.

daveharnett

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I saw a 10km/hr speed limit during road works recently. I jog faster than that! The road was clear apart from some cones on the left, the road works looking no more serious than what you would usually find. You'd swear we were navigating a mine field.

I'm waiting for a 'get out and push' speed limit for road works. BTW, are those temporary fold-out 'speed limit' signs legally binding? If so, the guards are really missing a trick.

Victor

daveharnett wrote: »

I'm waiting for a 'get out and push' speed limit for road works. BTW, are those temporary fold-out 'speed limit' signs legally binding?

Yes.

maidhc

Victor wrote: »

Yes.

Are they?

Last time I checked you needed a bye law before a sign was lawful. Has this changed?

Eoin

According to one poster on the Wicklow forum, they have proposed upgrading the Northbound stretch of the N11 through Kilmacanogue to 80km. This is currently a 60km stretch, despite there being a decent size slip road for entering and exiting the N11. Of course, this is where you see the speed traps on a regular basis.

Steve

maidhc wrote: »

Are they?

Last time I checked you needed a bye law before a sign was lawful. Has this changed?

Roadworks speed limits are different to normal limits (which require bye laws).

AFAIK They are set as part of the planning process for the works.

Eoin

Didn't a load of people get off the hook because a speed limit in Blackrock, Dublin was never officially changed during roadworks, or something like that?

maidhc

SteveC wrote: »

Roadworks speed limits are different to normal limits (which require bye laws).

AFAIK They are set as part of the planning process for the works.

I know there was a bye law of some description passed for the m50 widening debacle. I'm thinking though of the random speed limit signs the council keep erecting (and never take down). I ignore these, and most people do.

Steve

maidhc wrote: »

I know there was a bye law of some description passed for the m50 widening debacle. I'm thinking though of the random speed limit signs the council keep erecting (and never take down). I ignore these, and most people do.

The city or county manager has to sign an order for them.

Section 10, Road Traffic Act 2004.

It can seem a bit random but from reading the legal stuff, it seems there is a lot of red tape involved.

10.—(1) The manager of a county or a city council may, where he or she considers it is in the interests of road safety, on a road or motorway or part of a road or motorway where road works are being carried out in the administrative area of the county or city council for which he or she is the manager, by order (“road works speed limit order”) apply to the road or motorway or part of it a special limit (“road works speed limit”) being a speed limit of not less than 30 kilometres per hour, as the speed limit on the road or motorway for mechanically propelled vehicles, in lieu of the speed limit provided or having effect under this Act in respect of the road or motorway or part of it.

(2) A road works speed limit order is in force for the duration of the road works, subject to no such order having effect for a period of more than 12 months from the date of its making.

(3) A road works speed limit order shall not be made in respect of a national road or a motorway, without the prior written consent of the National Roads Authority.

(4) Before making a road works speed limit order the manager concerned shall notify the Commissioner in writing of his or her intention to make the order.

(5) The manager shall consider any representations made in writing by the Commissioner received by the manager within one month of the notification.

(6) When a road works speed limit order is made the manager concerned shall publish a notice in one or more newspapers circulating in the county or city council to which the order relates indicating the location where the order will have effect, the period for which it will have effect and the speed limit being applied through the order. The manager shall have regard to any representations that are made to him or her in relation to the road works speed limit order.

(7) A manager may at any time within the period specified in subsection (2) revoke or amend a road works speed limit order made by him or her.

(8) A document which purports to be a copy of a road works speed limit order which has endorsed on it a certificate purporting to be signed by the manager making the order or an officer of the local authority concerned designated by the manager stating that the document is a true copy of the order and that the order was in force on a specified day, shall, without proof of the signature of such manager or officer or that he or she was in fact such manager or officer, be evidence, until the contrary is shown, in every court and in all legal proceedings, of the order and of the fact that it was in force on that date.

Victor

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55993233&postcount=742

Steve

Thank you Victor.

I take it from your post that the black on orange speed limit signs are advisory only and are not enforcable then.