Competition Etiquette

Goodluck2me · 17-07-2008 12:23pm #1

Can you ask someone what club they hit, e.g. a par 3.
If someone putts first from a similar location to you, and they leave it short would it be bad manners to ask was the green a bit slow?
Also I have heard from others playing in serious competition that they would rarely rake the bunkers on the final days as its not their concern that the course is kept well, and that they needn't give the players behind them an advantage, is this, strictly speaking, not breaking the rules, but horrible form.
Finally what penalty is there for retaking a putt on the green after you have sunk it, in competition.

Thanks

rigal · 17-07-2008 12:37pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

I was just thinking about a few of these scenarios whilst in competition.

Can you ask someone what club they hit, e.g. a par 3.

If someone putts first from a similar location to you, and they leave it short would it be bad manners to ask was the green a bit slow?

Also I have heard from others playing in serious competition that they would rarely rake the bunkers on the final days as its not their concern that the course is kept well, and that they needn't give the players behind them an advantage, is this, strictly speaking, not breaking the rules, but horrible form.

Finally what penalty is there for retaking a putt on the green after you have sunk it, in competition.

Thanks

All of the above are against the rules AFAIK with the exception of raking the bunker which is just bad etiquette not too mention unbelievably selfish.

ShriekingSheet · 17-07-2008 12:39pm

Can you ask someone what club they hit, e.g. a par 3.

No
If someone putts first from a similar location to you, and they leave it short would it be bad manners to ask was the green a bit slow?

No - but what they think about the speed of the green is likely to be more of a hinderence than a help to you.
Also I have heard from others playing in serious competition that they would rarely rake the bunkers on the final days as its not their concern that the course is kept well, and that they needn't give the players behind them an advantage, is this, strictly speaking, not breaking the rules, but horrible form.

They should be shot. I'd love to know what you mean by serious competition. I've played a few GUI comps with National team players, Interpro players etc and never come accross this.
Finally what penalty is there for retaking a putt on the green after you have sunk it, in competition.

This rule has changed a bit over the years. Might be different for pros and amateurs but I've definitely seen some pros do it at PGA events. My own take on it is that I would never take a second putt in a comp, nor would I pull someone up for doing so. But thats just me.

Miley Byrne · 17-07-2008 12:42pm

I'm not sure if I'm correct here or not but as far as I know it's ok to take another putt in matchplay but not otherwise. I have seen it done by playing partners of mine in strokeplay comps but I'm not confident enough on the rules to pull someone on it to be honest

Mister Sifter · 17-07-2008 12:52pm

denisoc16 wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'm correct here or not but as far as I know it's ok to take another putt in matchplay but not otherwise. I have seen it done by playing partners of mine in strokeplay comps but I'm not confident enough on the rules to pull someone on it to be honest

I thought it that is was ok in matchplay, and ok in strokeplay as long as you are not going to play the hole again. Could be wrong though. I see guys doing it all the time.

ShriekingSheet · 17-07-2008 1:00pm

I'd just like to add a couple of related points to this for newer golfers who can understandably get a bit confused around things like this.

This goes for slightly more serious competition as opposed to your local pub society, but say a Medal in your club or something like that.

What club your partner plays...
We've established that it's not ok to ask what club your playing partner hit or is hitting for any shot. However, you may want to keep a close eye on the sole of his club if he holds his follow-through. Chances are, you'll see what he hit if you really want to know. Also, if he has his irons racked neatly in his bag it might also be easy for you to see what club is missing as he takes his shot. However, it is extremely uncool to go to the guys bag and obviously look through his clubs to see what iron is missing. It's off-putting to notice someone so concerned to see what you're hitting and you'll look like a spa by overtly trying to gain an advantage.

Show me the line...
Another thing to watch out for is when someone has a putt along the same line as you. Yes, it's a great help to see ball go on the line but it's crucial that you in no-way put your opponent off by trying to get a good look. Standing directly behind someone's line as they putt, or directly behind the hole, regardless of how far back you stand, is totally bad form. The best way to do it is to stand out of the players eye-line, maybe 10 yards away with his belt buckle pointing at you so your not in his eyeline, and then walk quickly over after the putt has been struck so you can see the ball take the break. It's important to give the player space at all times. As a rule of thumb, if he can see you looming as he putts you're probably in the wrong place. Note that if the guy wears a cap you can stand closer in front of him without him seeing you

These are just a couple of things I come accross, especially in players going from beginners playing social/society golf where helping each other out is part of the craic, to club member comps where people are more strict and, at the end of the day, are your opponent.

rigal · 17-07-2008 1:16pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I'd just like to add a couple of related As a rule of thumb, if he can see you looming as he putts you're probably in the wrong place. Note that if the guy wears a cap you can stand closer in front of him without him seeing you

Here's an easy one to remember - I know if I can't see the player's back or chest when they're hitting a shot then I'm probably in their eyeline or standing somewhere I shouldn't be.

stringy · 17-07-2008 1:17pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Show me the line...
Another thing to watch out for is when someone has a putt along the same line as you. Yes, it's a great help to see ball go on the line but it's crucial that you in no-way put your opponent off by trying to get a good look. Standing directly behind someone's line as they putt, or directly behind the hole, regardless of how far back you stand, is totally bad form. The best way to do it is to stand out of the players eye-line, maybe 10 yards away with his belt buckle pointing at you so your not in his eyeline, and then walk quickly over after the putt has been struck so you can see the ball take the break. It's important to give the player space at all times. As a rule of thumb, if he can see you looming as he putts you're probably in the wrong place. Note that if the guy wears a cap you can stand closer in front of him without him seeing you

.

This is defo not allowed in matchplay, if you stand directly behind or in front of the line of the putt of your opponent, they can call the hole on you. Not sure what penalty is in strokeplay

PhilipMarlowe · 17-07-2008 2:04pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

I was just thinking about a few of these scenarios whilst in competition.
Can you ask someone what club they hit, e.g. a par 3.
After everyone has hit (including you) it's ok to ask...

If someone putts first from a similar location to you, and they leave it short would it be bad manners to ask was the green a bit slow?
You can ask factual based stuff usually, like how far to carry the water etc., but not opinion type stuff like this.

Also I have heard from others playing in serious competition that they would rarely rake the bunkers on the final days as its not their concern that the course is kept well, and that they needn't give the players behind them an advantage, is this, strictly speaking, not breaking the rules, but horrible form.
Rake the bunkers...

Finally what penalty is there for retaking a putt on the green after you have sunk it, in competition.
Ok to practice putting on the hole just played in matchplay or strokeplay. Also can practice chipping at the next tee. Can't practice out of a hazard. It's bad manners to practice if it slows down the game (it usually does)..

Thanks

.

copacetic · 17-07-2008 2:47pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Might be different for pros and amateurs but I've definitely seen some pros do it at PGA events.

Your sure about this shrieking? As licksy says rules allow it on the previous green or current tee, but afaik all PGA tour events have a local rule specifically prohibiting this..

(USGA does allow it at US open though, but most players take great exception to it so you seldom see it)

ShriekingSheet · 17-07-2008 2:54pm

copacetic wrote: »

allowed on the previous green or current tee?

Yes, absolutely sure that I've seen it but I do remember the comemtator mentioning something about a rule adjustment when Davis Love was doing it on-screen.

It was a long time ago but it was something strange, like the USGA were allowing it for this one tournament or it there was a change in the rule that allowed it from now on... Something funny like that.

It stuck in my mind cos it's a strange thing to see in a strokeplay event.

I'm sure the rulebook clarifies it but I'm not inclined to check because I just don't ever do it and wouldn't pull someone up for it either.

ShriekingSheet · 17-07-2008 2:55pm

copacetic wrote: »

(USGA does allow it at US open though, but most players take great exception to it so you seldom see it)

Sorry I didnt see this edit.

It very well could have been the US open.

fullstop · 17-07-2008 3:00pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

I was just thinking about a few of these scenarios whilst in competition.
Can you ask someone what club they hit, e.g. a par 3.
No

If someone putts first from a similar location to you, and they leave it short would it be bad manners to ask was the green a bit slow?
Yes

Also I have heard from others playing in serious competition that they would rarely rake the bunkers on the final days as its not their concern that the course is kept well, and that they needn't give the players behind them an advantage, is this, strictly speaking, not breaking the rules, but horrible form.
Tut tut

Finally what penalty is there for retaking a putt on the green after you have sunk it, in competition.
None

Thanks

And it's bad etiquette to wear shorts like these too

ShriekingSheet · 17-07-2008 3:03pm

fullstop wrote: »

And it's bad etiquette to wear shorts like these too

It's actually against the rules AFAIK

2 stroke penalty for each hole on which they are worn.
Matchplay: immediate loss of match.

Hobart · 17-07-2008 3:09pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I'd just like to add a couple of related points to this for newer golfers who can understandably get a bit confused around things like this.

This goes for slightly more serious competition as opposed to your local pub society, but say a Medal in your club or something like that.

What club your partner plays...
We've established that it's not ok to ask what club your playing partner hit or is hitting for any shot. However, you may want to keep a close eye on the sole of his club if he holds his follow-through. Chances are, you'll see what he hit if you really want to know. Also, if he has his irons racked neatly in his bag it might also be easy for you to see what club is missing as he takes his shot. However, it is extremely uncool to go to the guys bag and obviously look through his clubs to see what iron is missing. It's off-putting to notice someone so concerned to see what you're hitting and you'll look like a spa by overtly trying to gain an advantage.

Very true, however a change in the rules this year does allow for advice on distance to the pin (previously prohibited) while still prohibiting the "what club did you hit there?" questions.

Show me the line...
Another thing to watch out for is when someone has a putt along the same line as you. Yes, it's a great help to see ball go on the line but it's crucial that you in no-way put your opponent off by trying to get a good look. Standing directly behind someone's line as they putt, or directly behind the hole, regardless of how far back you stand, is totally bad form. The best way to do it is to stand out of the players eye-line, maybe 10 yards away with his belt buckle pointing at you so your not in his eyeline, and then walk quickly over after the putt has been struck so you can see the ball take the break. It's important to give the player space at all times. As a rule of thumb, if he can see you looming as he putts you're probably in the wrong place. Note that if the guy wears a cap you can stand closer in front of him without him seeing you

stringy wrote: »

This is defo not allowed in matchplay, if you stand directly behind or in front of the line of the putt of your opponent, they can call the hole on you. Not sure what penalty is in strokeplay

100% correct. In fact if you are playing in a better ball stroke play event you cannot stand directly infront of or behind your playing partner while he/she is taking their putt.

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

This rule has changed a bit over the years. Might be different for pros and amateurs but I've definitely seen some pros do it at PGA events. My own take on it is that I would never take a second putt in a comp, nor would I pull someone up for doing so. But thats just me.

I didn't know about this at all, even in the context of the USGA, not that the USGA has any bearing on us Europeans. I was under the impression that once the hole is finished (from a strokeplay perspective) no practice was allowed from a putting perspective. In matchplay, the rule allows for practice, but only where such practice does not hold up another group.

copacetic · 17-07-2008 3:09pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Sorry I didnt see this edit.

It very well could have been the US open.

yeah, was a bit slow with the ninja edit! us open would make sense. think it there may not be a rule at the open against it either but don't think you will see anyone do it.

It's a funny rule alright that it is allowed, can't see it staying in the rulebook much longer..

Mister Sifter · 17-07-2008 3:12pm

Are there any rules about hitting provisionals? If you arrive without warming up, can you declare a provisional on you first few shots to warm up? Bad form obviously, but is there a rule against it?

fullstop · 17-07-2008 3:14pm

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Are there any rules about hitting provisionals? If you arrive without warming up, can you declare a provisional on you first few shots to warm up? Bad form obviously, but is there a rule against it?

I'm sure it can be done but would not go down too well with playing partners if you hit one up the middle and then called a provisional!

Hobart · 17-07-2008 3:21pm

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Are there any rules about hitting provisionals? If you arrive without warming up, can you declare a provisional on you first few shots to warm up? Bad form obviously, but is there a rule against it?

No rule, as far as I know. It would be considered bad etiquette, and it may leave you open to time penalties. However, one must be careful when declaring a "Gerry Adams" , as there are rules governing the golfer once a provo has been hit, and some players have come a cropper because of this. For example, you cannot leave the tee box and go back and hit a provo.

Mister Sifter · 17-07-2008 3:24pm

fullstop wrote: »

I'm sure it can be done but would not go down too well with playing partners if you hit one up the middle and then called a provisional!

Would infuriate a matchplay opponent!

Goodluck2me · 17-07-2008 10:13pm

fullstop wrote: »

And it's bad etiquette to wear shorts like these too

If you had the legs I do, to put into them, then perhaps you would understand.

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Would infuriate a matchplay opponent!

Could that be a good thign in terms of mind games, its horrible etiquette thought obviously.

Hobart wrote: »

For example, you cannot leave the tee box and go back and hit a provo.

Whats the difference between hitting a provisional and going back to the tee to hit another after you know you have definitely lost it.

Shriekingsheet wrote:

I'd love to know what you mean by serious competition. I've played a few GUI comps with National team players, Interpro players etc and never come accross this.

I was caddying in a USKGA during the summer and the group in front kept doing it. By serious I meant it wasn't a friendly game it was a national qualiifier for the world championships. I was wondering could they be penalised for it, (esp as the father was a complete twat). He once called a 2-shot penalty on an 8 year old kid for picking up a pinecone from a fairway bunker as he walked past, even though his ball wasnt even in it as he was "testing the bunkers".
Also if you're playing a 4 ball better ball can you ask your team partner what he hit?

Mister Sifter · 18-07-2008 8:19am

goodluck2me wrote: »

Could that be a good thign in terms of mind games, its horrible etiquette thought obviously.

Getting one over on a matchplay opponent is undoubtedly a good thing. If i was playing a real a***hole i'd consider it.

goodluck2me wrote: »

Whats the difference between hitting a provisional and going back to the tee to hit another after you know you have definitely lost it.

Once you go back to the tee, your first ball is lost. You hit a provisional as an insurance to not finding your first one. Mainly to speed up play i think.

Goodluck2me · 18-07-2008 11:57am

Graeme1982 wrote: »

nce you go back to the tee, your first ball is lost. You hit a provisional as an insurance to not finding your first one. Mainly to speed up play i think.

So for example if you left the tee box and then realised that you should hit a provisional, and you hit it. If your first is up the fairway you can't play it?

copacetic · 18-07-2008 12:07pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

So for example if you left the tee box and then realised that you should hit a provisional, and you hit it. If your first is up the fairway you can't play it?

absolutely can't play it, provisional is just to save time if ball is lost, not a second go so you can pick the best one!

PhilipMarlowe · 18-07-2008 2:27pm

There are a couple of strange scenarios around this, and I'm too lazy to read up on them now but taking a shot at it anyway....

Say you hit from the tee into the rough.
You can go to look for the ball and when you can't find it, you can go back while others search. Once you don't declare it lost and you are within the time limit, if it is found before you hit the provisional, you are ok to play the original. You can have it teed up (has to be on a tee) but once you haven't made a stroke at it, it's not in play.

Once you go back to re-hit, it can't be declared a provisional.
You must declare a provisional before you move forward to look for the original effort.
If in the scenario above you had hit from the fairway on a par 5 or something, you went back, dropped the ball to re-hit, once it hits the ground it's in play regardless if the original is just found.

Another weird twist is say you hit your second to a blind par 4, couldn't find it, went back after 5 minutes was up.... the ball was then found in the hole. It's deemed to have been holed out for a 2 and the fact that you didn't find it within the time limit is irrelevant.

Competition Etiquette

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