Its my right!!!

brianthebard

People today, grr...seems like every day is trying to justify their laziness/stupidity/illegality by claiming a right. In the banksy thread someone thinks they have the right to graffiti. If you are going to do something illegal accept that ffs, don't try to pretend you are some sort of modern day freedom fighter. And we all know how many people think they have a right to free speech....
whats even worse is people seem to think that rights, or claiming a right, is a legally binding agreement. its not. the UN declaration of human rights has not given or taken away life, shelter, food, etc for anyone. They are meaningless. If you want to life, if you want to exist, then you need to fight for that. Not for your right to do so. And you sure as hell can't hide behind a right and hope you'll be ok. /angry.

mike65

Damn right!

Mike.

meditraitor

brianthebard wrote: »

People today, grr...seems like every day is trying to justify their laziness/stupidity/illegality by claiming a right.

BRAVO

First thing that comes to mind is that old student chant about how 'education is a right, not a privilege' which I assume has been making the rounds since the 60s.

Don't forget OP, it's a 'free country'.

CountingCrows

Yeah lets all just shut up and do and were told.....

mikemac

I remember when the debate was on if Croke Park would allow soccer and rugby.
The residents were up in arms, I was one of them.

But the best argument the residents committee could come up with was the congestion on the roads, the garda cordon and the difficulty of access would impact our Right to Freedom of Travel. Possibly freedom isn’t the correct legal term but you know what I mean. Some term from the United Nations was used anyway

Our esteemed chairman went on Newstalk Radio and got laughed off the National airwaves.
It didn’t work

Dragan

brianthebard wrote: »

People today, grr...seems like every day is trying to justify their laziness/stupidity/illegality by claiming a right. In the banksy thread someone thinks they have the right to graffiti. If you are going to do something illegal accept that ffs, don't try to pretend you are some sort of modern day freedom fighter. And we all know how many people think they have a right to free speech....
whats even worse is people seem to think that rights, or claiming a right, is a legally binding agreement. its not. the UN declaration of human rights has not given or taken away life, shelter, food, etc for anyone. They are meaningless. If you want to life, if you want to exist, then you need to fight for that. Not for your right to do so. And you sure as hell can't hide behind a right and hope you'll be ok. /angry.

You mean like fighting for the right to do graffiti???

brianthebard

CountingCrows wrote: »

Yeah lets all just shut up and do and were told.....

Thats not what I'm saying. Roffles at Dragan! I think you can fight for graffiti (and by fight I mean continue doing an illegal act, while accepting that it is such) without having to claim that it is your right to do so.

Dragan

brianthebard wrote: »

Thats not what I'm saying. Roffles at Dragan! I think you can fight for graffiti (and by fight I mean continue doing an illegal act, while accepting that it is such) without having to claim that it is your right to do so.

Nah, the person in that thread was a moron. I have expressed my thoughts on it over there.

For what it's worth i agree with you. People are bitches in general tbh. "My right this" , "my right that".

How about my right to tell someone to shut the **** up i don't want to hear about it??

brianthebard

Dragan wrote: »

Nah, the person in that thread was a moron. I have expressed my thoughts on it over there.

For what it's worth i agree with you. People are bitches in general tbh. "My right this" , "my right that".

How about my right to tell someone to shut the **** up i don't want to hear about it??

Thats what I'm talking about!! I was going to reply in the other thread but you did such a good job, there's nothing more to say...*sniff* it was beautiful...

Steve_o

We have to fight....for our right.... TO PAAAARRRRRTY!!!!:D

CountingCrows

brianthebard wrote: »

Thats not what I'm saying. Roffles at Dragan! I think you can fight for graffiti (and by fight I mean continue doing an illegal act, while accepting that it is such) without having to claim that it is your right to do so.

Agreed, e.g Our Occupied Country should be free, not a legal right but a moral one.

brianthebard

what criteria are you using to differientiate the two? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that I think that people equate moral rights with legal rights, and that I don't believe in either of them. Maybe you do but I don't have to accept that.

biko

No rights were ever given to us by the grace of God
No rights were ever given by some United Nations clause
No rights were ever given by some nice guy at the top
Our rights they were bought by all the blood
And all the tears of all our
Grandmothers, grandfathers before *


OT
scummers are always banging on about their rights. What about their obligations? Other peoples rights? In a modern society you have right but also obligations.

Dragan

brianthebard wrote: »

Thats what I'm talking about!! I was going to reply in the other thread but you did such a good job, there's nothing more to say...*sniff* it was beautiful...

Well lately i have been practicing my own stencil art and have a huge interest in getting into the whole graffiti thing. However, my own interests do not give me the right to go out and impede on other peoples time and property and finances and lives.

It's a simple adult decision to make tbh.

CountingCrows

brianthebard wrote: »

I think that people equate moral rights with legal rights, and that I don't believe in either of them. Maybe you do but I don't have to accept that.

You don't believe in moral or legal rights - anarchist?

brianthebard

CountingCrows wrote: »

You don't believe in moral or legal rights - anarchist?

Not really, I haven't even read Bakunin...D let me know how the stencilling works out for you, I was playing with the same idea but being out in the country there's very little to practise on...I could try the turf shed wall I suppose!

Sherifu

brianthebard wrote: »

People today, grr...seems like every day is trying to justify their laziness/stupidity/illegality by claiming a right. In the banksy thread someone thinks they have the right to graffiti. If you are going to do something illegal accept that ffs, don't try to pretend you are some sort of modern day freedom fighter. And we all know how many people think they have a right to free speech....
whats even worse is people seem to think that rights, or claiming a right, is a legally binding agreement. its not. the UN declaration of human rights has not given or taken away life, shelter, food, etc for anyone. They are meaningless. If you want to life, if you want to exist, then you need to fight for that. Not for your right to do so. And you sure as hell can't hide behind a right and hope you'll be ok. /angry.

We're not supposed to hit kids anymore

Dragan

Sherifu wrote: »

We're not supposed to hit kids anymore

You gotta fight for your right to wail on the youngin's!!!

And Brian, will do matey!

AnonoBoy

I wish I had the right to smack loud annoying junkies on public transport.

meditraitor

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I wish I had the right to smack loud annoying junkies on public transport.

You do,

seamus

You have the right to remain silent.

Once you waive that right, everyone else has the right to tell you to STFU.

AnonoBoy

meditraitor wrote: »

You do,

WUHOO!!!!!!

If anyone asks I'll tell them a lad on the internet told me I could do it!

Red Hand

Hmmmm...admins, test the OP's convictions. Ban him from this forum and lock this thread as a test.:) The time it takes to raise a thread in feedback is proportional to the degree he feels it's his right to question such a decision.

brianthebard

roffles very clever! *begins setting up duplicate accounts in preparation for feedback blitz*

beautiation

Yeah, I'm one who thinks I have the right to graffiti. There's really not much to say past what I've already posted in the thread itself, and I'm too drunk to post much tonight, but I absolutely believe in my right to graffiti and just as you look down on me for acting illegally, I look down on you for assuming that everything the law says must be right and never questioned. The fact you say
"trying to justify their laziness/stupidity/illegality" as if those three traits were the same thing speaks volumes.
Stupidity and laziness are abhorrent in all cases, illegality is not.
Do you not agree that bad laws can ever be imposed? And when they are, do you not agree that the majority of people can agree with bad laws even when they're terribly wrong because of the governments consistent attempts to imprint into people that it is the natural way of things and not to be questioned? There are plenty of historical examples! So why should we assume there are not also terrible laws in practice today that history will in turn judge us for? To me, the theft of our freedom of expression in our public space is one such law. If I wish to be true to my morals and ideals, I can't just logically assume that if I toe the line the government will steer me right, if I took that attitude at nearly any other time in history I would end up vile, so why are things different now? As such, I reject their laws until I can understand the justification for them. I don't habitually break laws just for the craic (in fact, I can't think of a single other way I act illegally), but where I do disagree with a law, I do consider it my right to fight it, and I feel I owe it to myself to live unrestricted by that ideal no matter what risks that entails, because I know who I am and what I believe. I think you are the lazy one.

Don't mean to sound all grandiose and self-important like, but I do mean all that. Just imagine it sounding less pompous then it came out, k? Sorry

brianthebard

you are so far from understanding what i said in the op.did you even notice i said you should accept it was illegal?i didn't say you should stop because of that,just don't hide behind some cod moral philosophy cause adorno would own your ass via kant so hard that you wouldn't know how to sound grandiose any more.

AlmightyCushion

beautiation wrote: »

As such, I reject their laws until I can understand the justification for them.

How can you not see the justification of making it illegal to destroy someone elses property?

beautiation

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

How can you not see the justification of making it illegal to destroy someone elses property?

It's not destruction. What do you mean when you say it will destroy your property? That it will devalue it? Well, the only reason that that would be is because making public expression illegal has gotten it negative connotations with poverty and violence, in just the same way that chocolate would if it were outlawed tomorrow. Maybe you also hate that most graffiti efforts are hurried, ugly things because people must keep one eye out for the cops while doing it. If it was legal, this would not be an issue. It's illegal graffiti you despise, and the illegal much much more than the graffiti I tell ya!

brianthebard

ugh off topic nonsense.step away from the keyboard!

beautiation

brianthebard wrote: »

ugh off topic nonsense.step away from the keyboard!

Shhh baby...

AlmightyCushion

beautiation wrote: »

It's not destruction. What do you mean when you say it will destroy your property? That it will devalue it? Well, the only reason that that would be is because making public expression illegal has gotten it negative connotations with poverty and violence, in just the same way that chocolate would if it were outlawed tomorrow. Maybe you also hate that most graffiti efforts are hurried, ugly things because people must keep one eye out for the cops while doing it. If it was legal, this would not be an issue. It's illegal graffiti you despise, and the illegal much much more than the graffiti I tell ya!

I consider defacing someone's property damaging it as you have altered it from the way the owners intend it to look like. If someone in my estate decided to let people do what ever they like to their house, I wouldn't have a problem with it or any one who decides to spray paint something on it. Hell I might even add to it myself. On the other hand if someone just goes up and messes with someone's property against the wishes of the owner then they are a scumbag.

Also, I've seen people do a quick sketch and make it look beautiful, I've seen people spend ages on a drawing and thought it looked rubbish afterwards. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, time doesn't guarantee something will look good to every one who sees it.

beautiation

beautiation wrote: »

It's not destruction. What do you mean when you say it will destroy your property? That it will devalue it? Well, the only reason that that would be is because making public expression illegal has gotten it negative connotations with poverty and violence, in just the same way that chocolate would if it were outlawed tomorrow. Maybe you also hate that most graffiti efforts are hurried, ugly things because people must keep one eye out for the cops while doing it. If it was legal, this would not be an issue. It's illegal graffiti you despise, and the illegal much much more than the graffiti I tell ya!

You sir are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

beautiation

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I consider defacing someone's property damaging it as you have altered it from the way the owners intend it to look like. If someone in my estate decided to let people do what ever they like to their house, I wouldn't have a problem with it or any one who decides to spray paint something on it. Hell I might even add to it myself. On the other hand if someone just goes up and messes with someone's property against the wishes of the owner then they are a scumbag.

Also, I've seen people do a quick sketch and make it look beautiful, I've seen people spend ages on a drawing and thought it looked rubbish afterwards. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, time doesn't guarantee something will look good to every one who sees it.

I disagre, because the house is still a house. You buy it for the inside, and you only consider the outside ruined by graffiti because (broken record ahoy!) of misconceptions and negative connotations drummed into you by the government who want their electorate passive.
I don't paint on houses myself, because it would devalue the home, though for reasons that would not be graffiti's fault, as I outline above. Society is so screwed in this regard, that while in principle I have the right to paint on your house, I wouldn't. But if someone were to paint your house the fault of the plummet in value would lie with the terrible laws and the snobbery drummed into us and not the artist. But houses aren't the main crutch of my argument, it's public space, such as walls, transport and public buildings, that I'm concerned with.
As for your second paragraph, I'm not concerned with aestheticism, but freedom of expression. But regardless, if it were legal, you would have to say that the general standard of graffiti art would rise. The people you mention who can paint lovely art quickly would be unaffected, but those who need a bit longer would be able to paint nicer things, and they're probably in the majority.

AlmightyCushion

It's not the devaluation in price of the property I have a problem with. People do stuff to their property all the times that devalue it. What I have a problem with is the defacing the property of someone against their will.

beautiation

]Ok, well I'll start by saying I'm not quite so unequivocal about my right to paint on the outside of someone's house as I am about my right to paint on public property. Some people I know think it's cool, other's dont, personally I'm torn, though I'm probably slightly on the side that says it is the houseowner's property and therefore out of bounds. One argument goes that as for the majority of the time the outside of your house is in the public eye rather than your own (as you're inside the house) it is part of the general public forum of expression, so is fair game. And I do agree somewhat, because what a house looks like on the outside is irrelevant to the living standards within, and as long as they remain unthreatened I don't see how you can be so affected by art on the outside. Remember that I believe you have been unfairly conditioned to reflexively hate graffiti, so I do not take your protestations that it's defacing your property at face value

However, this is only my theory, and there is plenty of public space where the war should be waged first. In a wildly hypothetically universe where graffiti in public was legalised, I believe in time you would come to appreciate what a benefit to society it was and would welcome meassages on your house, in fact you'd probably paint some yourself. But to be realistic, that's not gonna happen, so I'll never get the chance to prove my theory. So while I don't really respect your reasons for being infuriated by people graffiting your house, the fact remains you and a lot of people do get infuriated by it, and there are plenty of other public places where we can express ourselves, so we probably shouldn't spray your house as we can't prove for sure that you're wrong.

But public space is an entirely different matter.

beautiation

Deleted User wrote: »

You sir are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

Dr Cox: One of my heroes, doesn't take crap off others, sticks out like a sore thumb if needs be, and believes in himself even if he's in the minority. Thanks :pac:

Black Swan

Well, I demand my rights to go skinny dipping in the harbour tonight after the sun sets! And I'll act on it, and those offended by someone young in the buff can just look the other way... like turning the other cheek, ha!

javaboy

You have no right to paint on someone else's house. There is no argument. The fact that the outside of someone's house is visible to the public does not make it your canvas on which to doodle.

People buy their houses not just because of the living standards within but also because of the look of the outside and, snobbish as it may seem to you, as a status symbol to others. It's part and parcel of what they handed over the money for.

If you came along and planted flowers in their garden, repainted their walls in the most beautiful colours and cut their grass, you would still be morally and legally in the wrong if you didn't have their permission.

Remember that I believe you have been unfairly conditioned to reflexively hate graffiti, so I do not take your protestations that it's defacing your property at face value

Stop talking down to people. It's irritating. Most graffiti is an eyesore in my opinion but there is plenty that is very artistic and beautiful. Some of devalues property, some of it doesn't it. It's all academic really because what it boils down to is, you have no right to graffiti other people's property without their permission regardless of what conditioning you feel they've undergone or what "war" you're waging.

we probably shouldn't do it as we can't prove for sure that you're wrong

There's a reason you can't prove him wrong. It's because he's not. You are.

AlmightyCushion

@beautiation - Would you let me tattoo "Graffiti is for scumbags" across your face?

beautiation

javaboy wrote: »

There's a reason you can't prove him wrong. It's because he's not. You are.

Now who's talking down to people? You don't know I'm wrong any more than I know you are. The fact is, you can't prove us wrong until you try things our way, because we honestly believe it would change your opinion. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you have looked into the origins of your society enough. Just because you were born into it and it is common does not make it right. Maybe I'm wrong, and you have researched things thoroughly and have come to the conclusion the theft of our freedom of expression in our public space was conducted openly with the will of the people and that it is right. Even if that's so, I still doesn't stop me fundamentally disagreeing with you. And that's not right or wrong, that's opinion.

The happy fact is, you can embrace the fact that the situation will probably not change, and I can accept the fact that while I may not be vindicated by popular opinion (which is genrally an oxymoron anyway) I am still free to decide to only answer to my own moral conscience, and so far it's hella fun! So we're both happy, peace, and I'm off to bed.

beautiation

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

@beautiation - Would you let me tattoo "Graffiti is for scumbags" across your face?

You must have excellent can control to get all that on a face! Fancy teaming up?

javaboy

beautiation wrote: »

Now who's talking down to people? You don't know I'm wrong any more than I know you are.

So just what sort of system are you proposing? How far should we take it? Can we have possessions but people are allowed deface them? Maybe we shouldn't have possessions at all? Why stop there? Maybe we shouldn't have laws at all. Maybe we should just be entitled to kill anyone who annoys us.

Or do we only take this anarchy business as far as you being allowed spray what you want on my property and no further?

I can accept the fact that while I may not be vindicated by popular opinion (which is genrally an oxymoron anyway).

Can you please explain why you consider popular opinion to be an oxymoron? Popular opinion is by definition the opinion held by a majority of the people. It is inherently popular and not really an oxymoron.

brianthebard

beautiation wrote: »

Now who's talking down to people? You don't know I'm wrong any more than I know you are.

wrong you were shown to be wrong in my first post when i suggested that rights are nothing more than personal or social constructs.if we were to engage your pathetic fallacy for a moment though we would see that your right is infringing on others right not to live in a graffiti'd area.are we now to assume your right as an individual is greater than society as a whole?

4Xcut

brianthebard wrote: »

People today, grr...seems like every day is trying to justify their laziness/stupidity/illegality by claiming a right. In the banksy thread someone thinks they have the right to graffiti. If you are going to do something illegal accept that ffs, don't try to pretend you are some sort of modern day freedom fighter. And we all know how many people think they have a right to free speech....
whats even worse is people seem to think that rights, or claiming a right, is a legally binding agreement. its not. the UN declaration of human rights has not given or taken away life, shelter, food, etc for anyone. They are meaningless. If you want to life, if you want to exist, then you need to fight for that. Not for your right to do so. And you sure as hell can't hide behind a right and hope you'll be ok. /angry.

Have you been stealing my thoughts?:D

Seriously though, i wouldn't mind people claiming certain rights if they met 2 criteria. Firstly, they should be correct, you do not have a right to a refund if you change your mind on a garment, hell you don't have a right to a refund under any circumstances. It's a legal entitlement, you would have a very hard time arguing that your right to property was ingored when if you were sold something under false pretences - maybe you were just stupid.

Secondly, for each right you wish to claim, there is a corresponding responsibility. I have a right to life and to property, I therefore have a responsibility to not kill and to not steal. If you have a right to a good days pay, then you have a responsibility to do a good days work. This is why fake sickies in my opinion should be grounds for immediate dismissal without notice. Punish someone either for faking sick or for being stupid enough for being caught - both deserve loss of job to be honest.

There is, in my opinion, quite a string correlation between people who claim rights and entitlements and people who are incapable of getting things done for themsleves or who are simply not capeable of making good decisions.

The rare occasions when it is a case of a legally defended entitlement (once again I will use the example of refunds) people have a terrible habit of taking it too far.

Rights have responsibilities and aren't these all emcompassing laws that mean you can be a moron, survival of the fittest come back all is forgiven.

Here endith todays rant.