When using a Preamp (Tech Question)

danjokill

Sometimes I like to use a tube preamp instead of the Soundcraft ghost mixer pre's. One issue I have is the line in level (as shown on the desks meterbridge). I find myself having to up the gain on the ghost pre. To get a signal in. Even though i have a good signal on the output of the preamp. Is this normal?? Am i not doubling the preamp by preamp with my external hardware and then with the ghosts preamp ?



Any help here?

Thanks

studiorat

Yeah, You are going through 2 pre amps there alright. And an EQ and a few other things to. Could also be a balanced/unbalanced thing or +4dB/-10dB job...
Cheaper desks often use the same amp for the mic and line input with just a pad when changing levels. I can't recall what that particular one looks like.
Try the pre-amp straight to the recorder would be my advice.

Nearly time for a little patch bay it sounds like!!!

danjokill

Thanks for the advice.
I do have two patchbays. One for Effect rack. the other on the multitrack / daw / Tape side. I can indeed bypass the desk and send direct from the preamp either to tape or to the soundcard as you have suggested. Eq bypass on the "In" and "out" is possible on this desk. Just thought that if the INPUT SENS dBu dial was turned all the way down this would bypass the desk preamps looking at it now it just go's to -8 and not off as I had thought, hense there is a colouration from the desk pre-amp. I'll need to look over the manual to see what the chain is to the DIR out but i think you maybe right.

Another question would be if i send it direct to the DAW (in my case Cubase) via the soundcard (a Focusrite 26i/o) surely here I'm getting colouration from the sound cards own preamp? as this like any i've seen it has a input sens level (and it own preamp of sorts)?

Cheers for the help so far.

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

Sometimes I like to use a tube preamp instead of the Soundcraft ghost mixer pre's. One issue I have is the line in level (as shown on the desks meterbridge). I find myself having to up the gain on the ghost pre. To get a signal in. Even though i have a good signal on the output of the preamp. Is this normal?? Am i not doubling the preamp by preamp with my external hardware and then with the ghosts preamp ?



Any help here?

Thanks

If you look at your manual on page 4.2 you'll see the mic pre and the line in are the same circuitry . ie to make it a Line Input you pull back the gain.

So from a technical point of view it is valid to route your Pre-amp Line out to the Ghost's Line In (which is just the Jack Input routed to the same circuit as is used for the 'Mic Pre'.)
Perhaps you might use this way in if you wanted to add effect to the signal on the way in and the resulting combination of 'raw' signal and FX mixed would be what went to be recorded.

So while StudioRat's suggestion would be my preferred route - straight from your pre-amp to LINE IN on your soundcard the other route isn't wrong as I've explained.

With regard to the Focusrite you should always use the line ins to record from your mic pre or console - Only use the mic pres on the Focusrite for mic (unless you're looking for distortion!)

trackmixstudio

If the desk has inserts on the channels patch your preamp into the return. This will bypass the input stage of the console and give you a better signal and will also allow you use the consoles eq while tracking. DO USE EQ WHILE TRACKING. It is much more fun than starting the mix from flat and allows you to fit overdubs in better as you build a song.

studiorat

Basically everything's gonna give you coloration. It's just a question of how much you are prepared to put up with. Normally I'd go for the path of least resistance as it were. A plain old line in to the converter with no level control would be best, failing that you could try and figure out exactly where the unity gain is, ie. there there's no gain or attenuation 0dB.

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

If the desk has inserts on the channels patch your preamp into the return. This will bypass the input stage of the console and give you a better signal and will also allow you use the consoles eq while tracking. DO USE EQ WHILE TRACKING. It is much more fun than starting the mix from flat and allows you to fit overdubs in better as you build a song.

Good point!

studiorat

trackmixstudio wrote: »

If the desk has inserts on the channels patch your preamp into the return. This will bypass the input stage of the console and give you a better signal and will also allow you use the consoles eq while tracking. DO USE EQ WHILE TRACKING. It is much more fun than starting the mix from flat and allows you to fit overdubs in better as you build a song.

are they balanced?
as for eq, here here!!
get fearless.

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

If you look at your manual on page 4.2 you'll see the mic pre and the line in are the same circuitry . ie to make it a Line Input you pull back the gain.

So from a technical point of view it is valid to route your Pre-amp Line out to the Ghost's Line In (which is just the Jack Input routed to the same circuit as is used for the 'Mic Pre'.)
Perhaps you might use this way in if you wanted to add effect to the signal on the way in and the resulting combination of 'raw' signal and FX mixed would be what went to be recorded.

So while StudioRat's suggestion would be my preferred route - straight from your pre-amp to LINE IN on your soundcard the other route isn't wrong as I've explained.

With regard to the Focusrite you should always use the line ins to record from your mic pre or console - Only use the mic pres on the Focusrite for mic (unless you're looking for distortion!)

Is this to say that the Focusrite Inputs should be zero'ed out?


Thanks Everyone for the advice here!!!!!!!

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

Is this to say that the Focusrite Inputs should be zero'ed out?


Thanks Everyone for the advice here!!!!!!!

I'm not familiar with the unit but it looks like the line inputs on the front are the ones to use, the xlr inputs on back are mic only.

I would think the Line Ins have no hardware level adjustment.

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the unit but it looks like the line inputs on the front are the ones to use, the xlr inputs on back are mic only.

I would think the Line Ins have no hardware level adjustment.

Here is a pic
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec06/images/saffirepro26_l.jpg

From reading the below this review
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec06/articles/saffire.htm

in the pro's and con's section to the left it says it has eight preamp. ..... . hence I'm thinking maybe it would be better to send the preamp to the ADAT. I can do this as I have a Fostex A/D converter attached to one of the ADAT inputs on the soundcard and routed back to my multitrack side patchbay. Then use the DIR Send from the Ghost to route my signal to the soundcard. The chain would look a bit like this

MIC > PREAMP > DESK (return or line as discussed earlier) > DIR OUT > PATCHBAY > FOSTEX A/D > SOUNDCARD ADAT IN

This would bypass any other preamp.

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

Here is a pic
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec06/images/saffirepro26_l.jpg

From reading the below this review
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec06/articles/saffire.htm

in the pro's and con's section to the left it says it has eight preamp. ..... . hence I'm thinking maybe it would be better to send the preamp to the ADAT. I can do this as I have a Fostex A/D converter attached to one of the ADAT inputs on the soundcard and routed back to my multitrack side patchbay. Then use the DIR Send from the Ghost to route my signal to the soundcard. The chain would look a bit like this

MIC > PREAMP > DESK (return or line as discussed earlier) > DIR OUT > PATCHBAY > FOSTEX A/D > SOUNDCARD ADAT IN

This would bypass any other preamp.

That's possible if you like the sound of the Fostex a2d over the Focusrites I guess.

Ultimately they're all valid ways of working.

My earlier post should have cleared up the confusion regarding your initial question.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

yeah i have this problem as well, i have the mackie onyx 1620 firwire - and you cannot bypass the input stage ( or use inserts , or any of the board !) if using firewire ( dumb design )

so you have to put external pres into a chanell line in and set the gain to unity ( marked U ) - this should minimise the effect of the internal pre as much as possible .

since i now track a full drumkit , I use :

1/ the DAV bg1 pre amp for over heads into line ins
( TRULY A FANTASTIC PIECE OF KIT )

2/ the FMR really nice preamp for kick and snare into line ins
( great for clean drum sounds )

3/ the hats . toms . go into the mackie pres
( good pres as well - nice and clean )

its a pain , cos its basically just a giant firewire card .

I intend getting an RME or some such in the future ., and flog the mackie .