Diesel M5 Question

Imperator

hey just thought id get the thoughts of the boards,

Does anyone think there will be a diesel M3/M5 in the next 10-15 years, and if so will that truly be the death of the petrol engine or am just nuts putting diesel and M3 together and need to step away from the cool aid.
i think with the onset of the Diesel R8 on the way and performance becoming smoother and smoother i think that perhaps its only a matter of time. Is it a fair bench mark for the death of the petrol altogether?

Green Hornet

Imperator wrote: »

Is it a fair bench mark for the death of the petrol altogether?

Oh no :eek:.

Time to settle in for the battle again I think .

Seth Brundle

I can't see it happening within 10 years but you never know.
The next M5 looks like it will be two pots down on the current one - back to V8 - but it will have two turbos taking up the empty space!
See 2011 BMW M5 will drop the V10 for a twin-turbo V8

Imperator

i dont know if i can see it happening either, but at the same time i dont think that if it ever did happen it would be just a straight swap kind of thing. i would imagine BMW would try and partner the diesel in, perhaps a dual power plant option for your M5.
although with such a car, i dont know if would make much of a difference if it was diesel, i dont know what the economical figures are with the r8, but does the concept of such a car need to be a diesel, does it make sense at all. I think perhaps not... Audi do tho, which might spur on the lads in bavaria

Henry Ford III

Diesel engined cars have won Le Mans for a couple of years now so why not?

Seth Brundle

Although the likes of the 535d has shed loads of torque, I think if ///M were to refine a technology to the extent that it is up there with the M5, etc. then I reckon it would be with a newer type of fuel. BMW have invested a lot in hydrogen - maybe thats in the pipeline.

cabrwab

Op you are evil. Do not ever let this become reality! I suppose it could happen, however do not think the M side of BMW would work with a tractor engine.

Sponge Bob

This cannot happen , let me explain

if you dig up oil and send it to a refiner in a barrel there is only so much diesel and petrol in it .

Depending on whether its light crude or heavy crude the amount of petrol can be from 50 to 10% , depends on the refinery too.

Overall , allowing for refineries and crude characteristics and allowing for harder to extract crude you cannot exceed 50/50 so you CANNOT get rid of petrol in favour of diesel.

The answer , therefore , is 2 M3's

Rowley Birkin QC

Well there kind of already is an unofficial diesel performance 3 series.

Aplina D3 anyone?

Review here.

I think they developed, or are developing, a D5 aswell. Not straight from the M division itself but pretty close.

Loved the Alpina's for years, this one is pretty "bling" but I think it's still on the right side of cool.

Ferris

One of the most important things about M cars is the throttle response, hard to get from a high compression turbodiesel. Easier not to ruin it on a petrol but they will have to get the balance of higher power from higher boost pressure vs better throttle response just right. I know some modified cars use nitrous to make up for turbo lag but I doubt that BMW will go this far.

Imperator

Its a valid point Ferris, throttle response and instant electric power is a key component of the M cars, however while the technology is probably not quiet there to put that into contempory production cars rather than as pointed out earlier le mans winning audi's, i do think that if we are to stretch it a decade. Then That tech is certainly not beyond the realms of BMW or certainly mercedes in some cases. I do think, that if the tech allows for it, then it will be a cultural shift away from dirty diesel to the idea of series performance diesel. Its a big shift i know, and i think, even if you took a vote on boards, of all those who had the choice between a performance identical diesel and petrol M5, i think we know where everyone would sit. so i guess that asks the question, is their any point of developing such a car even if the tech allows for it??

onemanband

Whilst everyone would most likely opt for a petrol rather than a diesal if given the choice, the more you drive an M5 the more the petrol consumption gets on your tits.

They should come with some form of extended fuel tank. You should not have a car where you fill it in the morning and again in the evening if you decide to go for a bit of a spin!!

Ferris

The M cars don't even come with VANOS, BMW's variable valve timing, so basically they're running a 'hot' cam all the time, hence the poor MPG.

In reality tho the manufacturers just want to reduce the c02 emissions so that their cars get taxed less, if you can afford an M5 you can afford the fuel costs, they're pretty paltry in comparison to the savage depretiation you'll suffer.

Eoin

The 535d engine is twin turbo, so there is no lag. The first one kicks in instantly up until ~1500 RPM, where the second bigger one kicks in.

I can't see an M5d (apart from some of the oddly badged 5 series we already see on the roads right now). But at the same time, the 535d and 335d are still a step up from being just the frugal member of the family. Off topic, but this is a good video of a chipped 535d.

Stephen

I can see it happening at some stage in the future. Even Honda are working on a diesel Type R.

Imperator

Really, a diesel type R?? That would be mad, And quiet a jump by honda, from having no diesel's until very recentely to jumping straight into a perfomance diesel, still tho that would be ahuge undertaking, and a very difficult act to pull off, with the R being Front wheel drive, (i think at least, dnt jump down my throat if im wrong). But a front wheel drive performance diesel, some serious handling issues would be difficult to do. But honda probably could pull it off no doubt.
Still tho, i think the good point of mpg getting on your tits in an m5 is one i didnt expect to be raised so quickly. If someone on boards (who are all petrol heads) can raise it so quickly, then i think the general masses would be even more interested in the idea of being able to hockey it around like the 535 only in under 5 seconds and still get back 20ish mpg (he says optimistally).

Ferris

Imperator wrote: »

then i think the general masses would be even more interested in the idea of being able to hockey it around like the 535 only in under 5 seconds and still get back 20ish mpg (he says optimistally).

That really is optimistic, a t/t 3.0L engine will drink fuel every bit as fast as a 5L V10 if you are going to drive like it loke you stole it. I'd say you can get a 335d to do under 10mpg fairly easily (although you'll prob be arrested). The economy difference appears when your tootleing along at 80mph or sitting in traffic.

onemanband

Ferris wrote: »

The M cars don't even come with VANOS, BMW's variable valve timing, so basically they're running a 'hot' cam all the time, hence the poor MPG.

In reality tho the manufacturers just want to reduce the c02 emissions so that their cars get taxed less, if you can afford an M5 you can afford the fuel costs, they're pretty paltry in comparison to the savage depretiation you'll suffer.

Good point on the depreciation. It is as much about the time and hassle of spending half your life in garages filling it up. It's more about fuel tank capacity than effeciency.

Imperator

Ferris wrote: »

That really is optimistic, a t/t 3.0L engine will drink fuel every bit as fast as a 5L V10 if you are going to drive like it loke you stole it. I'd say you can get a 335d to do under 10mpg fairly easily (although you'll prob be arrested). The economy difference appears when your tootleing along at 80mph or sitting in traffic.

I agree with you with regards to the tax and legislation aspect of manufactures switching towards diesel, but i think perhaps we are all missing one key compenant, the Mcars, like any high end variant of any manufactory is as much a marketing tool as it is a money making exercise, it propels people to buy that range in that brand, i know its simplistic, but it is rooted in marketing theory, "oh that m5 is good, the 5 series must be good". I think if it is to be the flagship for years to come, and the majority of the range of any manufacture switches to Diesel, than can the flagship marketing driver remain a petrol. Don't they have to say, look at a brilliant Diesel power house, you can have one from the same stock too, 520d, etc etc. I think this may be the main driver towards a diesel M car, rather than economical or tax reasons. The best car has to embody the range, and be the pinnacle of the range. That can't be true it every car in the range is a diesel and it is a petrol. Or can it??

Ferris

Imperator wrote: »

I agree with you with regards to the tax and legislation aspect of manufactures switching towards diesel, but i think perhaps we are all missing one key compenant, the Mcars, like any high end variant of any manufactory is as much a marketing tool as it is a money making exercise, it propels people to buy that range in that brand, i know its simplistic, but it is rooted in marketing theory, "oh that m5 is good, the 5 series must be good". I think if it is to be the flagship for years to come, and the majority of the range of any manufacture switches to Diesel, than can the flagship marketing driver remain a petrol. Don't they have to say, look at a brilliant Diesel power house, you can have one from the same stock too, 520d, etc etc. I think this may be the main driver towards a diesel M car, rather than economical or tax reasons. The best car has to embody the range, and be the pinnacle of the range. That can't be true it every car in the range is a diesel and it is a petrol. Or can it??

I see your point, in that case they would do the mother of all cost/benefit analyses. Would the development costs of a diesel M5 bring in more sales etc.

It worked before as BMW probably made more money selling M-sport bodykits than they did selling M cars.

The other thing to consider is BMW's protection of the M-cars. They will do very little to jeaporadise the motorsport brand. For instance they wouldn't bring in an M version of the 1-series because they already had an M1 sportscar in the eighties and they didn't want to obscure that heritage (M1 founded the procars series etc). A diesel M-car might be too much of a risk for BMW.

Either way, I know I won't be buying one, Diesel or Petrol

cancan

Given the depreciation of the current model, they may have no choice.
There is only so many people who will come back for a car that sheds that amount of money so fast.

E92

The next M5 is going back to a V8. It will have direct injection, and twin turbos, which is quite a change in direction for BMW M, because BMW M up to now did not think that direct injection or any sort of turbocharging was good enough for its cars.

I wouldn't be surprised if the F30 M3 has a straight 6 again, or maybe even a 4 pot depending on how high oil prices become.

There will never be a diesel powered BMW M car, for so many reasons, which I will explain below.

BMW have just gotten rid of their V8 diesel, because the twin turbo straight 6 will offer the same performance but in combination with EfficientDynamics, 35-36 mpg rather than 23-25 mpg. Now if BMW were thinking about making a diesel M car they wouldn't be publicly announcing the demise of their largest and most powerful diesel now, would they?

Now the twin turbo straight 6 is due for a power boost, to over 300 bhp for the 7 series, but even the M3 has 420 bhp. So 300 vs 420....hmmm, I wonder which I'll have for my M powered BMW:rolleyes:.

Diesel costs more to make than petrol, so producing a low volume diesel engine won't exactly be very cheap.

Now that the EU is finally getting tougher on diesel engines for all non CO2 related emissions, that cost disadvantage is only set to increase and with the increase in oil prices pushing up the price of diesel faster than the price of petrol any increase in economy will be wiped by added cost of filling up.

In Europe, people are already starting to go back towards petrol believe it or not; last year Germany was almost 50:50 for new car sales as regards petrol vs diesel, but the most recent data shows that in just a year diesel has lost almost 6% of the new car market, so that means diesel is now found in 44% of new cars in Germany.

Most important of all, turbos and direct injection go some way towards reducing the gap between the economy of petrol and diesel, and give all the diesel torque at low revs but all the power advantages petrols always had over diesel.

I wouldn't be surprised if we were to see a petrol-electric hybrid M5 at some stage during the next generation's life cycle though.

Merc has already announced that there will be hybrid AMGs in the future, so you can be sure BMW won't be found wanting in finding a suitable rival(especially when Merc and BMW along with GM are co-operating on hybrid running gear).

Anan1

eoin_s wrote: »

The 535d engine is twin turbo, so there is no lag.

I think lag is an integral feature of any turbocharged engine, regardless of the number of turbochargers or fuel type. It can be reduced, but never fully eliminated - at least not while air is still compressible.;)

Eoin

Fair point Anan1. What I should have said is that you don't have to wait until <whatever> rpm until it starts spooling.

Anan1

No doubt about it, sequential turbos are much better in that respect than one big one. I think turbocharged cars are more about the torque though, they never seem to have that razor-sharp response you get from a good NA. They come on late, but they do come on strong.

E92

Just to add to this thread BMW announced the other day that there will be hybrid M cars, and sooner than we might think as well(next gen M5 in 2011 will be the first apparently).

That all but guarantees no diesel M5:)!

Oh, and the next M5's engine will be heavily related to engine that the X6 xDrive50iS(or the X6M as some are wrongly calling it, there will never be a BMW SUV with the M badge either) will have when it goes on sale later on this year.

I think it has somewhere in the region of the 507 bhp the current M5's V10 produces, and a massive 553 lb ft of torque, which I note is exactly the same as the Volkswagen "I can pull a plane" Touareg 5.0 V10 TDI.

JHMEG

Ferris wrote: »

The M cars don't even come with VANOS, BMW's variable valve timing, so basically they're running a 'hot' cam all the time, hence the poor MPG.

That's not really true. If they were running on a hot cam they would have brutal idle and be spitting and farting at low revs.

walshy123

Anan1 wrote: »

I think lag is an integral feature of any turbocharged engine, regardless of the number of turbochargers or fuel type. It can be reduced, but never fully eliminated - at least not while air is still compressible.;)

my auld fella picked up a 535d a couple years back and i must say i love it. thing is a rocked for the size of it. bit of a sleeper feel to it.