I Think Its Safe To Say It: David Haye Is The Great Black Hope.

Hero Of College

Listening to the forlorn, bleating shell of a man that is Steve Bunce on Saturday night, one couldn't help but feel that he is desperate for David Haye to take the Championship back off Klitschko. Just why they want him to do it is beyond me. Klitschko is the man, he fights all comers. He is two, three fights from cleaning out the division. Wlad is talking WBA while Haye is talking TBA.

Not to mention the truly outrageous manner in which Paul Dempsey passed off Klitschkos performance as "disappointing", adding further that "Klitschko has shown no clear improvement" before going on to entertain Hayes outrageous claims as if he was a come-backing version of Mike Tyson.

No clear improvement? Williamson, Peter, Byrd, Brewster, Brock, Austin, Ibragimov,Thompson. 3 southpaws. 2 KO's. 3 undefeated fighters. 3 wins. 2 one-punch KO wins. No clear improvement? Fcuk off pal. You're not into boxing. You're a media stooge.

It is, without doubt, a total and utter waste of time attempting to impress on these people that Klitschko has, for the second time in 6 months, utterly defused and beaten down on another tricky southpaw, the type of fighter that Lewis himself said he studiously avoided throughout his career. It is a waste of time to point out to Dempsey that people like Foreman, Ali, Holyfield all suffered serious problems fighting Southpaws.

It is a waste of time explaining to them that the jab sets everything up, and that nobody negates a jab quite as good as a Southpaw with massively long arms. Its a waste of time explaining how badly Lewis looked against Akinwande, Butler. Its a waste of time explaining that Peter, Thompson and Ibragimov are at least as good, if not a whole lot better, than the Grant, Botha and Tua that Lewis fought before he got KTFO by Rahman in Africa.

Lewis tried to explain to Rawling, but he gave up when all Rawling wanted to do was feel Lennys cock, put on his best Graham Norton gay-face and talk up David Haye.

Lenny kind of was happy he had retired by then. Nobody wants to talk boxing any more. Its all David and Setanta in the O2. Forget about the undefeated Olympian that Wlad fights next. Forget about the man that is clearing the division out. Forget that they talked Povetkin up and that when Klitschko beats him, it will all be forgotten, only to remind the viewer that Vlad got the win and thats good cos now David can KO him, when he's finished with TBA, that is.

Its all a waste of time because these bastar*s stopped caring about the ins-and-outs of prize fighting a long time ago. They don't care about the jab, the right hand, cuts, headbutts, anything.

They just know that Klitschko has the belts. That he's not giving them up. That he has, under the tutelage of Manny Steward learned how to win ugly. Old Klitschko would win beautiful and lose beautiful. Now he wins. Period. Old KLitschko KO'd Mercer and got KO'd by Sanders. New Klitschko KO's Sanders and decisions Mercer. So be it. Old Klitschko gassed out and ran out of ideas. New Klitschko breaks his man down and finds highligh reel KO's when lesser men would be settling for a decision. This is lost on Setanta. They just don't fukcing get it.

New Home of Boxing? Sure. If you think tape-delayed fights with "VERSUS TV" commentary {the dude from "Saved By The Bell", Mario Lopez:eek::rolleyes: with Doug Fisher...:rolleyes:} Sure, its the home of Boxing, if you think David Haye can fight. Sure, its the home of boxing, if you don't think ITV and SKY show fights. Sure, its the home of boxing, if you think Ian Darke is a worse man than Dempsey.

Klitschko has the belts, and it hurts this lot very very much. It hurts them that Cologne, Hamburg and NYC, and Vegas and LA are the fight cities. It hurts them that David Haye is fighting TBA down the O2 this November. It hurts them that London is a pimple on the arse of the heavyweight scene. That the German crowd are polite and don't boo the American anthem. That the cast of Eastenders were not invited. That the Germans have more class. That the show isn't sponsored by a brand of fatty potato chip.

It hurts them because they are Great White Dopes for a Great Black Hope called David Haye, and that their race lust for a Black Champ has forced them to forego and forget all and anything they ever knew about boxing. It hurts them because they allow themselves to stoop and bow to a half-arsed "afflete" called David Haye when they should be telling him to shut up and fight already.

It hurts them that in the same space of time as David Haye has gone around talking utter nonsense about how good he is, that Klitschko has unified and defended the unified title against two of the most awkward fighters out there. That David is talking TBA, when Wlad is talking WBA. And I don't mean Bromwich Albion.

It hurts them that they, educated men, have become the Jack London and Jim Crowe of their times. Reduced to the status of YES MEN in a media world which knows shag all about boxing and cares even less.They have a product, its called David Haye, and they will sell it even if it has to rot on the shelves.

Well I hope they hurt for a whole lot longer.

Boxing is ****ed. Viva MMA.

buck65

Boxing at heavyweight is ****ed otherwise it is quite healthy. Irish boxing is healthy both amateur and pro.
Good post tho, have to agree with you on some points. Haye has alot to prove. Klitscho would beat him well today.

Hero Of College

buck65 wrote: »

Boxing at heavyweight is ****ed otherwise it is quite healthy. Irish boxing is healthy both amateur and pro.
Good post tho, have to agree with you on some points. Haye has alot to prove. Klitscho would beat him well today.

To be honest.......I don't really care who would win, not too much. My point is that Klitschko is showing better form, in all ways, and his achievements and efforts are being used as arguments against him. The guy beats 2 extremely awkward, dangerous Southpaws, and we are told he has "made no improvements"

At the least, its shoddy journalism. At worst, it damages the sport and creates a foul, jingoistic stench that could take years to shift.

Why is boxing at heavyweight "FUKCED"???

We have not had an undisputed welterweight champion since, wait for it, Zab Judah beat Corey Spinks. A guy who couldn't even win a signature fight at 140 vs Tszyu was annointed the man at 147. THATS FUKCED.

But it gets even better, or worse, as you want. Floyd Mayweather rises to the rank of pfp#1 by beating....Gatti at 140 and Baldomir at 147. He then fights former lightweight champ and current part-timer ODLH for a title at 154. All the while avoiding real welterweights in the form of Cotto, Margarito, Cintron, Clottey, Paul Williams, Mosley, Quintana, Winky etc. Thats a sample of guys HE DID NOT fight.

He was the man at 154 and 147, without fighting anyone. The man he should have fought at 140 {Hatton} he dragged him all the way up to 147. Same with ancient Sharmba Mitchell.

Now he has "retired" and left Margarito and Cotto with the job of getting on with it.

Same at middlweight. By the "logic" used to define the situation at Heavyweight, the Middlweight division should also be messed. It started with a spurious and highly contentious argument that Jermaine Taylor actually beat Hopkins. Taylor made 4 defences of his title before his losing one against Pavlik. One of them was against a middlweight, Hopkins, and again the outcome was controversial.

Taylors other 3 defences, pre Pavlik, were against...Kassim Ouma, Corey Stinks, Winky Wright. All 154lbrs. He won 2 and drew one. His title reign was distinguished by an inability to honour his mandatories. He allowed the title to splinter and couldn't even say he did for the good of the division, because the IBF title was vacated so that he could fight a 154lbr...and he couldn't even win the fight.

Pavlik has basically picked up where Taylor left off. Good start by beating a so-so Taylor, then a decision at 166, then Lockett, and now a fight against a guy who has a title at 147, Williams.

I mean, has the history of Welterweight/Middlweight been any better over the last 4 years than Heavyweight???

Thompson was a very very risky mandatory. Wlad took it. He honoured the mandatory. He maintained the unified title and he did so, ultimately, in a decent fight and in some style. He will fight anyone. He will fight any style. He is fighting undefeated fighters with genuine Olympic and other Amateur credentials. He is fighting Nigerian bruisers, Yankee Southpaws, fast rising Russians.

How is HW any more "fukced" than Middle or Welter. Or Light Heavy for that matter.

Lightweight and Superbantamweight are two genuinely stacked divisions. Thats it.

Heavyweight is doing just fine. If certain people can't live with the fact that they think the sun shines out the black mans arse and now all of a sudden he can't win a fight and they are shocked, then tuff. It ain't all Hippa to the Hoppa in the Fight Game. Its called the WORLD Championship. Not the Yankee Hip Hop title.

Theres a reason WHY the MMA is surging ahead. In their business, a guy can come from Tokyo or Sao Paolo, Manchester or LA. It doesn't matter. Its all good as far as they are concerned.

Boxing would do well to follow.

T-K-O

Hero Of College wrote: »

To be honest.......I don't really care who would win, not too much. My point is that Klitschko is showing better form, in all ways, and his achievements and efforts are being used as arguments against him. The guy beats 2 extremely awkward, dangerous Southpaws, and we are told he has "made no improvements"

At the least, its shoddy journalism. At worst, it damages the sport and creates a foul, jingoistic stench that could take years to shift.

Why is boxing at heavyweight "FUKCED"???

We have not had an undisputed welterweight champion since, wait for it, Zab Judah beat Corey Spinks. A guy who couldn't even win a signature fight at 140 vs Tszyu was annointed the man at 147. THATS FUKCED.

But it gets even better, or worse, as you want. Floyd Mayweather rises to the rank of pfp#1 by beating....Gatti at 140 and Baldomir at 147. He then fights former lightweight champ and current part-timer ODLH for a title at 154. All the while avoiding real welterweights in the form of Cotto, Margarito, Cintron, Clottey, Paul Williams, Mosley, Quintana, Winky etc. Thats a sample of guys HE DID NOT fight.

He was the man at 154 and 147, without fighting anyone. The man he should have fought at 140 {Hatton} he dragged him all the way up to 147. Same with ancient Sharmba Mitchell.

Now he has "retired" and left Margarito and Cotto with the job of getting on with it.

Same at middlweight. By the "logic" used to define the situation at Heavyweight, the Middlweight division should also be messed. It started with a spurious and highly contentious argument that Jermaine Taylor actually beat Hopkins. Taylor made 4 defences of his title before his losing one against Pavlik. One of them was against a middlweight, Hopkins, and again the outcome was controversial.

Taylors other 3 defences, pre Pavlik, were against...Kassim Ouma, Corey Stinks, Winky Wright. All 154lbrs. He won 2 and drew one. His title reign was distinguished by an inability to honour his mandatories. He allowed the title to splinter and couldn't even say he did for the good of the division, because the IBF title was vacated so that he could fight a 154lbr...and he couldn't even win the fight.

Pavlik has basically picked up where Taylor left off. Good start by beating a so-so Taylor, then a decision at 166, then Lockett, and now a fight against a guy who has a title at 147, Williams.

I mean, has the history of Welterweight/Middlweight been any better over the last 4 years than Heavyweight???

Thompson was a very very risky mandatory. Wlad took it. He honoured the mandatory. He maintained the unified title and he did so, ultimately, in a decent fight and in some style. He will fight anyone. He will fight any style. He is fighting undefeated fighters with genuine Olympic and other Amateur credentials. He is fighting Nigerian bruisers, Yankee Southpaws, fast rising Russians.

How is HW any more "fukced" than Middle or Welter. Or Light Heavy for that matter.

Lightweight and Superbantamweight are two genuinely stacked divisions. Thats it.

Heavyweight is doing just fine. If certain people can't live with the fact that they think the sun shines out the black mans arse and now all of a sudden he can't win a fight and they are shocked, then tuff. It ain't all Hippa to the Hoppa in the Fight Game. Its called the WORLD Championship. Not the Yankee Hip Hop title.

Theres a reason WHY the MMA is surging ahead. In their business, a guy can come from Tokyo or Sao Paolo, Manchester or LA. It doesn't matter. Its all good as far as they are concerned.

Boxing would do well to follow.

The quality of fighter is just not there in the HW division. Where is the Cotto, Margarito, Calzaghe, Hopkins etc in the HW division.

By the way I agree with you that Money Mayweather avoided Cotto and the likes but he has got the skills to beat these guys.

BTW expecting Floyd to fight Winky is just ridiculous.

DiscoHugh

I would say that Setanta regard Haye as more of a "great brit hope" than a "great black hope"

I think the setanta guys (yes even Buncey) are decent at talking about boxing as long as there is no british fighter involved in the discussion it is then that all reason and logic fly out the window.

I remember a few years back Bunce (on bbc I think it was) after the klitschko Johnson fight saying how Fraudley Harrison would have one klitschko for breakfast and the other for lunch!

I was quite disappointed with Wlad's last two performances I really think he could have ko'd Ibragimov from about the 4th round on even manny was imploring him to finish. And in this fight he looked so awkward an uncomfortable.

But I totally take on board your points that those two opponents are trailor made to make a fight ugly.

Hero Of College

T-K-O wrote: »

The quality of fighter is just not there in the HW division. Where is the Cotto, Margarito, Calzaghe, Hopkins etc in the HW division.

By the way I agree with you that Money Mayweather avoided Cotto and the likes but he has got the skills to beat these guys.

BTW expecting Floyd to fight Winky is just ridiculous.

Why not? He fought Oscar didn't he????????

Here's the thing.....Wlad had the skills to destroy Ibragimov, so he destroyed him with the jab, and people complain. But at least he FUKING FOUGHT HIM!!!!:D

Does Floyd have the skills to beat Cotto, Margarito? Yeah, sure. Did he bother to make the fights?

No.

So thats even worse.

He could cherry pick with Oscar and Hatton, but couldn't do it where it counted, when it counted.

But he's American, and "Hip Hop"...so he gets the Pass.

Ironically, he then turns around and says that HBO were "racist" against him. He doesn't know how well he had it.

How well do you think George Foreman would have done with Tony Thompson? How well do you think Holyfield, Lewis or even Bowe would have done with him???

What was so brilliant about Golota fouling out against Bowe, Bowe trashing his belt and avoiding Lewis, Lewis getting KTFO by McCall, McCall having a nervous breakdown, Holy losing to Moorer and then Moorer losing to an old fat Foreman, before Foreman fought bums like Stewart and barely beat them??What was so glorious about Eugenia Williams scoring the 5th round 10-9 for Oldyfield?? Were Tua, Grant and Botha really any better than Sam Peter, Ibragimov and Thompson?? What was so glorious about that era??

I'll tell you what was glorious: it was Black, largely American, and it was on HBO. Thats what.

White, European fighters challenge the mindset and stereotype that exists in the skulls of perhaps the laziest, thickest dumbest nation on earth: THE USA. It is the USA, through HBO, ESPN, SHOWTIME, Ring Magazine, the IBHOF, the WBHOF etc that dictates just how people will be/are regarded, and even worse, how they are rated. That is a phenominal media machine to try and resist. So lazy people just go with he flow..."Oh yeah, my grandaddy says Foreman would have wasted Thompson in under 2 rounds."

Really??

Their opinion is not for trusting.

Hero Of College

DiscoHugh wrote: »

I would say that Setanta regard Haye as more of a "great brit hope" than a "great black hope"

I think the setanta guys (yes even Buncey) are decent at talking about boxing as long as there is no british fighter involved in the discussion it is then that all reason and logic fly out the window.

I remember a few years back Bunce (on bbc I think it was) after the klitschko Johnson fight saying how Fraudley Harrison would have one klitschko for breakfast and the other for lunch!

I was quite disappointed with Wlad's last two performances I really think he could have ko'd Ibragimov from about the 4th round on even manny was imploring him to finish. And in this fight he looked so awkward an uncomfortable.

But I totally take on board your points that those two opponents are trailor made to make a fight ugly.

Thats the key point for me. Oscar De La Hoya looked crap against Pea Whittaker....probably even lost. Do we hold him to it? Nope. Do HBO hold him to it? Hell no.

Foreman lost to Jimmy Young, a smaller, slower, less powerful Southpaw than either of Thompson, Byrd, Ibragimov, Sanders.

Is Foreman a Hall-Of-Famer?

Hell yes, and rightly so. Even though he couldn't figure out a basic rope a dope and got KO'd? Yes. Even though he lost to Young? Yes. Even though he struggled with guys that Gerry Quarry beat easily? Yes.

Bunce needs to leave his bias at the door. Its no bloody good. We need to keep this game objective.

Bunce said Pavlik would come to Germany and destroy Sturm and Abraham on the same night, so I don't think his outbursts are relegated to British fighters.

Ironically, and I know I am stressing the point, Abrahams status as a titleholder is derived, in part, from the nonsense which Jermaine Taylor went on with in America. He wouldn't honour his mandatory and so the title was split up.

Taylor got a payday and a draw with 154lb Winky Wright, and Abraham got a date with Kingsley Ikeke.

Somehow, Abraham, in the eyes of the media, was cast as a villain. A meaningless title holder who had no claim at 160.

If Taylor had done the right thing, a worthy, genuinely world class fighter like Abraham could have been able to stake his claim in the traditional fashion. By kicking the sh!t out of Taylor.

Instead, because he's "not a draw" he has to do it the hard way by fighting better fighters like Ikeke, Miranda, Eastman, Jantuah and Miranda again.

No sooner has he done that, but he is declared null and void, a waste of time for Pavlik. Its obviously lost on them that if Taylor had satisfied his obligations, Pavlik would have been fighting Abraham for the title and not Taylor.

Its Yank nonsense and propaganda. I won't stand for it. I know I am a nobody but I have the right to respond to nonsense where I see it.

Cheers for your time fella.

HoC

DiscoHugh

I may be wrong but I thought that JT had to give up the WBA belt in order to facilitate a rematch with Hopkins (which was perfectly justified)....

Mikel

Impressive rant!!

Big Ears

DiscoHugh wrote: »

I may be wrong but I thought that JT had to give up the WBA belt in order to facilitate a rematch with Hopkins (which was perfectly justified)....

Jermain Taylor was stripped of his IBF title for not fighting Arthur Abraham and instead rematching Hopkins . Had he not rematched Hopkins the WBC would have stripped him, so he had no way around it .
Maselino Masoe was WBA 'regular' champion at the time while Jermain was 'Super Champion' , Taylor was stripped of his 'Super Champion' title for not fighting Masoe , so no one actually won a vacant title from that it just carried on as it was .

Taylor was backed up against a wall by the sanctioning organisations and basically told you're losing 2 out of your 4 belts, you get to keep the WBO and one other so choose which one you want . He picked the one with the best opponent(Bernard Hopkins) . But being stripped of those titles meant nothing, Taylor remained the Middleweight Champion of the World and Pavlik beating him became the Middleweight champion of the World .

Spinks beat Mayorga, Judah beat Spinks, Baldomir beat Judah, Mayweather beat Baldomir, Mayweather retired . So up until Mayweather's recent retirement we've had a Welterweight champion, one of them was Zab judah and Judah did indeed lose to Light-Welterweight All-Time Great Kostya Tszyu .

Mayweather has shamelessly ducked Cotto, but everyone else in the list was beaten by Cotto or another one of the Welter's recently, or is a Middleweight . Cotto beat Quintana and Mosley, Quintana beat Williams, Williams beat Margarito, Margarito beat Clottey and Cintron .

Winky Wright never was a Welterweight and hasn't fought at Light-Middleweight in 3 1/2 years .

Mayweather was never the man at Light-Middleweight .


Just so everyone is clear here, Taylor was stripped of his IBF title for not fighting the unheralded at the time(only having beat Howard Eastman) Arthur Abraham over Bernard Hopkins the man he got a very close and controversial win over the first time . Fighting Abraham instead would have resulted in losing his WBC title and being branded by the whole World as a ducker .

Welterweight and Middleweight have had a champion for most of the last 4 years(all 4 for middleweight), Heavyweight has not had one since Lewis .


Now I haven't seen the Thompson fight yet as I was away, but unless the guy improved beyond recognition he would have been knocked out by Bowe, Holyfield, Golota and either version of former within 6 rounds . I'm pretty surprised he managed to last so long with Wlad but at least Wlad managed to get him in the end .

Peter, Ibragimov and Thompson as good as Grant, Botha and Tua made me chuckle, Peter is probably better than Grant but that's it .

joepenguin

IMO David Haye is the "great exciting hope". lm looking forward to his re-debut to the heavyweights, and if he Klitschko-Haye was announced it would be the first heavyweight title fight I'd look forward to in ages.

megadodge

Excellent post Big Ears. As usual just sticking to the facts, unlike some other people.

Peter, Ibragimov and Thompson as good as Grant, Botha and Tua made me chuckle, Peter is probably better than Grant but that's it .

However, I have to disagree with you re. Botha. All the others were better than him, with Thompson the next worst.

T-K-O

Hero Of College wrote: »

Why not? He fought Oscar didn't he????????

Here's the thing.....Wlad had the skills to destroy Ibragimov, so he destroyed him with the jab, and people complain. But at least he FUKING FOUGHT HIM!!!!:D

Does Floyd have the skills to beat Cotto, Margarito? Yeah, sure. Did he bother to make the fights?

No.

So thats even worse.

He could cherry pick with Oscar and Hatton, but couldn't do it where it counted, when it counted.

But he's American, and "Hip Hop"...so he gets the Pass.

Ironically, he then turns around and says that HBO were "racist" against him. He doesn't know how well he had it.

How well do you think George Foreman would have done with Tony Thompson? How well do you think Holyfield, Lewis or even Bowe would have done with him???

What was so brilliant about Golota fouling out against Bowe, Bowe trashing his belt and avoiding Lewis, Lewis getting KTFO by McCall, McCall having a nervous breakdown, Holy losing to Moorer and then Moorer losing to an old fat Foreman, before Foreman fought bums like Stewart and barely beat them??What was so glorious about Eugenia Williams scoring the 5th round 10-9 for Oldyfield?? Were Tua, Grant and Botha really any better than Sam Peter, Ibragimov and Thompson?? What was so glorious about that era??

I'll tell you what was glorious: it was Black, largely American, and it was on HBO. Thats what.

White, European fighters challenge the mindset and stereotype that exists in the skulls of perhaps the laziest, thickest dumbest nation on earth: THE USA. It is the USA, through HBO, ESPN, SHOWTIME, Ring Magazine, the IBHOF, the WBHOF etc that dictates just how people will be/are regarded, and even worse, how they are rated. That is a phenominal media machine to try and resist. So lazy people just go with he flow..."Oh yeah, my grandaddy says Foreman would have wasted Thompson in under 2 rounds."

Really??

Their opinion is not for trusting.

Why you think I favor the American view is beyond me and I never give Floyd a pass. He ducked Cotto, Margarito etc. Fighting Oscar at light middle was different to fighting Winky. Winky can fight at light heavy and is a huge light middle, Oscar is a smaller dude.

Should we praise Wlad for boring victories I think not. Boxing is about fighting and wanting to get the other guy outta of there asap.

Not jabbing your way to a snooze fest 12 round decision.

cowzerp

T-K-O wrote: »

Boxing is about fighting and wanting to get the other guy outta of there asap.

Not jabbing your way to a snooze fest 12 round decision.

Have to disagee, boxing is about winning anyway that is possible, thats why Ali is revered even though the rope a dope tactic was basically him taking a pounding till Foreman burned himself out!

taking them out quick is great, but not all fighters are good at this.

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

Have to disagee, boxing is about winning anyway that is possible, thats why Ali is revered even though the rope a dope tactic was basically him taking a pounding till Foreman burned himself out!

taking them out quick is great, but not all fighters are good at this.

Ali may have let Foreman swing away at him but he was landing some good hard shots of his own, infact he was landing the much better head shots and that's probably why all 3 judges had Ali leading .

So much impact was taken out of Foreman's punches by Ali being able to lean back very far it what were extremely loose ropes . He was reaching with his punches and only the body shots were having a significant impact .

The tactic may have been to tire Foreman out, but Ali was on his way to a decision win if things had kept like that for another 7 rounds .

cowzerp

im not knocking Ali, im stating how any tactics are valid and how winning is the important thing..Ali is 1 of my hero's along with big george!

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

im not knocking Ali, im stating how any tactics are valid and how winning is the important thing..Ali is 1 of my hero's along with big george!

I agree completely and as I keep saying, I've no real problem with Wlad boxing as cautious as he does . I'm still going to watch anyway, even if I would prefer more aggression .

But the truth is millions around the World won't watch if you don't provide excitement, and that's lost exposure for Wlad, for the heavyweight division and for boxing as a whole .

Povetkin will make him fight though, he won't stand there and let himself be dominated by a jab alone .

T-K-O

You are not seriously comparing Wlad to Ali ..?

I have no problem when a guy comes up with a certain game plan to win a certain fight but if that game plan (is the only plan) is to spoil/jab and not take risks in his past few fights, that is what I have a problem with.

DiscoHugh

Yea I used to always get into heated discussions with my brother about this.

He had Manny p4p number 1 and I had Mayweather.

As much as I hate mayweather and love pacquiao I couldn't put the pacman above mayweather simply because I felt mayweather was a better boxer. Manny is a better fighter, entertainer,warrior and person but it's boxing baby...

T-K-O

DiscoHugh wrote: »

Yea I used to always get into heated discussions with my brother about this.

He had Manny p4p number 1 and I had Mayweather.

As much as I hate mayweather and love pacquiao I couldn't put the pacman above mayweather simply because I felt mayweather was a better boxer. Manny is a better fighter, entertainer,warrior and person but it's boxing baby...

I respect monies skills but he doesn't prove it enough against the elite in his division. Hatton couldn't box eggs and welter and he only beat Dela by SD.

Hero Of College

Whats this about snoozefests?

Wlad has ONE FUKCING 12 round decision since he beat Peter!!!

And Ibragimov is really inferior to Botha?? Or Grant??

David Tua couldn't even beat Chris Byrd.

Please.......

Hero Of College

T-K-O wrote: »

I respect monies skills but he doesn't prove it enough against the elite in his division. Hatton couldn't box eggs and welter and he only beat Dela by SD.

Thats right. And Oscar was a part-time boxer by then. Hell, he was part time when he was losing to Hopkins and Helicks Spurm.

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

I agree completely and as I keep saying, I've no real problem with Wlad boxing as cautious as he does . I'm still going to watch anyway, even if I would prefer more aggression .

But the truth is millions around the World won't watch if you don't provide excitement, and that's lost exposure for Wlad, for the heavyweight division and for boxing as a whole .

Povetkin will make him fight though, he won't stand there and let himself be dominated by a jab alone .

Peter made him fight. Peter stood on his feet, clubbed the back of his head, pushed him....made him fight. And still lost.

Wlad has only very very recently becoming this "cautious fighter".

Hector Camacho was the same after his scare vs Rosario.

Its hardly unreasonable. Yet Wlad does provide us with highlight reel stuff, just not as much as he used to. He's got 3 one punch endings in his last 4 outings. Yet people keep harping on Ibragimov.

Ali from 1975-1979 had really very little in the way of anything to write home about. In fact he looked pretty awful at times. People rant on about Manilla, but in fairness, just cos they were both dying doesn't mean it was high-quality stuff. It was dramatic, but Ali punching the head off a guy who spent 6 weeks in hospital after a fight he won in 1970 isn't all that great.

Dramatic, sure.

If you want entertainment, go to the movies.

I'm sure nobody in Hamburg asked for their money back at the weekend.

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

Whats this about snoozefests?

Wlad has ONE FUKCING 12 round decision since he beat Peter!!!

And Ibragimov is really inferior to Botha?? Or Grant??

David Tua couldn't even beat Chris Byrd.

Please.......

Ibragimov couldn't even beat Ray Austin, now while there is no problem arguing he is a better fighter than Grant or Botha he did put up much less of a challenge to Wlad than Botha did .

Wins inside 12 rounds can be boring, and boring is a matter of opinion not fact so you can't argue with it .

Ibragimov was even floored by Austin, and I couldn't see Grant or Botha failing to beat Austin, or Tua for that matter . Now that doesn't make them better fighters but Ibragimov has done nothing in his career that they couldn't do .

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

Ibragimov couldn't even beat Ray Austin, now while there is no problem arguing he is a better fighter than Grant or Botha he did put up much less of a challenge to Wlad than Botha did .

Wins inside 12 rounds can be boring, and boring is a matter of opinion not fact so you can't argue with it .

Ibragimov was even floored by Austin, and I couldn't see Grant or Botha failing to beat Austin, or Tua for that matter . Now that doesn't make them better fighters but Ibragimov has done nothing in his career that they couldn't do .

I could sit here and say that the Ibragimov "draw" had as much to do with Home Town decisions but even if thats the case you wouldn't believe me.


Ibragimov hid for 12 rounds against Wlad, Botha couldn't do that. But you see, now you have to admit that Ibragimov ran for 12, which means you have to lay off Wlad. Can't have it both ways.:p

Botha barely got past Schulz, then he failed a steroid test. He gets so much credit for his DRAW with Briggs its unreal. Its what I call the Gerry Quarry syndrome. People gave him so much unwarranted criticism that when he did something good, a la stand up to Tyson and Briggs, they went overboard. He gave Lewis 2 rounds.

Grant was bloody awful. The Yankee version of David Haye. Lost to Guinn, lost to Lewis, lost to McCline, should have lost to Golota but hey whats new so should Bowe.

Tua basically did what Ibragimov did when it came to Lewis. He kind of showed up, and he was overweight, then he kind of said "**** it"....and just petered out. No pun intended.

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

I could sit here and say that the Ibragimov "draw" had as much to do with Home Town decisions but even if thats the case you wouldn't believe me.


Ibragimov hid for 12 rounds against Wlad, Botha couldn't do that. But you see, now you have to admit that Ibragimov ran for 12, which means you have to lay off Wlad. Can't have it both ways.:p

Botha barely got past Schulz, then he failed a steroid test. He gets so much credit for his DRAW with Briggs its unreal. Its what I call the Gerry Quarry syndrome. People gave him so much unwarranted criticism that when he did something good, a la stand up to Tyson and Briggs, they went overboard. He gave Lewis 2 rounds.

Grant was bloody awful. The Yankee version of David Haye. Lost to Guinn, lost to Lewis, lost to McCline, should have lost to Golota but hey whats new so should Bowe.

Tua basically did what Ibragimov did when it came to Lewis. He kind of showed up, and he was overweight, then he kind of said "**** it"....and just petered out. No pun intended.

Botha didn't want to do that, he looked for the knockout for 8 rounds before his poorly conditioned body gave out and he gassed , allowing Wlad to ko him . I already said that both Wlad and Ibragimov settled for the points win for Wlad, both of them seemed happy with that . Wlad didn't want to risk getting knocked out and Ibragimov didn't either, he was happy with what he got .

I can't lay off Wlad because I'm not laying into him, I like Wlad and think he is shoulders above the rest of the division . I merely state he fights in a manner which will not attract future fans and that is not a positive thing for boxing .

Grant turned out to be pretty ordinary but is probably underated now because of how overated he was before . A few weeks ago you were saying Haye was another Audley Harrison, now he's another Michael Grant, if he keeps moving up like this it won't be long till he's another Lewis . Grant was over the hill when he lost to the upcoming Guinn, back when Guinn(who's actually an okay fighter when motivated) actually looked like something .

He was destroyed by Lewis but then again so were many others, and the McCLine loss was a poor one . But then again even an old Jameel McCline managed to deck a guy 3 times who could 'compete in any heavyweight era' so I guess there shouldn't be too much shame in that .


Tua's performance against Lewis was similar to Ibragimov, however Tua has chinned Ruiz in a round, stopped Maskaev, Rahman, Moorer and had a very close fight with Ike Ibeabuchi . Prime Tua is certainly more dangerous than the current Ibragimov .

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

Botha didn't want to do that, he looked for the knockout for 8 rounds before his poorly conditioned body gave out and he gassed , allowing Wlad to ko him . I already said that both Wlad and Ibragimov settled for the points win for Wlad, both of them seemed happy with that . Wlad didn't want to risk getting knocked out and Ibragimov didn't either, he was happy with what he got .

I can't lay off Wlad because I'm not laying into him, I like Wlad and think he is shoulders above the rest of the division . I merely state he fights in a manner which will not attract future fans and that is not a positive thing for boxing .

Grant turned out to be pretty ordinary but is probably underated now because of how overated he was before . A few weeks ago you were saying Haye was another Audley Harrison, now he's another Michael Grant, if he keeps moving up like this it won't be long till he's another Lewis . Grant was over the hill when he lost to the upcoming Guinn, back when Guinn(who's actually an okay fighter when motivated) actually looked like something .

He was destroyed by Lewis but then again so were many others, and the McCLine loss was a poor one . But then again even an old Jameel McCline managed to deck a guy 3 times who could 'compete in any heavyweight era' so I guess there shouldn't be too much shame in that .


Tua's performance against Lewis was similar to Ibragimov, however Tua has chinned Ruiz in a round, stopped Maskaev, Rahman, Moorer and had a very close fight with Ike Ibeabuchi . Prime Tua is certainly more dangerous than the current Ibragimov .

I'll give you Ruiz, not that Ruiz ever fought another puncher like him, and Ruiz did lose to Valuev, Toney, Jones and an ancient, shot-to-sh!t Holyfield.

Oleg was green, and was winning on the cards.

Rahman was a poor stoppage. Drakulich was a very green ref then too, it got a lot of coverage, because of Mayweathers early stoppage of Manfredy on the same card. Also Tua hit him after the bell.

Moorer was Tooooootally finished.

The performance he put in vs Ibeabuchi was, retrospectively excellent- but only cos we saw a very good performance from Ibeabuchi vs Byrd.