driving uninsured in private estate

djt0607

Hi,

I live in Dublin. I hold a provisional driving license. My sister holds a full driving license.

Would I be correct in saying that it is perfectly legal for me to drive my sisters car (with her accompanying me) in a private business estate even though I am not insured on my sisters car?...but as soon as I drive onto a public road, it becomes illegal?

Thank you.


David.

Jonty

No. You need to be named on the policy full stop. What would you do if you hit a kid or another car????

Isn't the charge "driving without insurance in a public place"?

If the Guards can follow you in to the estate, they can do you. Its not like rallying bangers in a field. Who told you that BTW??

Stark

"public road" means any road that the public has access to. I'm assuming that people other than yourself and your sister are able to drive into this estate, so yes you need insurance.

Alanstrainor

It is illegal. "private" would mean land that you yourself owned would it not? An estate where others drive and walk is not private.

forestfruits

ya not legal

challengemaster

Illegal.

Private means your own property. So.. you can drive up and down your driveway all you like.

seamus

Depends. "Private" doesn't mean you have to own it. Provided that you have permission from the owner of the land, you are well within your rights.

From the RTA of 1993:

"public road" means a road over which a public right of way exists and the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies on a road authority;

And you're only required to tax and insure your vehicle if you wish to drive it on a public road.

So by all accounts, any private estate is fair game. As are most shopping centre car parks, as well as any housing estates which have not yet been handed over to the local authority.

Use your head though. Just because insurance isn't a legal requirement, doesn't mean that you won't be sued in the event that you hit someone else. Also use caution - don't assume that a piece of road is private unless you're sure.

Dirty_Diesel

When a housing estate is completed and all works are to the council's satisfaction then the estate is handed over to the council for their upkeep. So therefore it is indeed public property.

cormac_byrne

Dirty_Diesel wrote: »

When a housing estate is completed and all works are to the council's satisfaction then the estate is handed over to the council for their upkeep. So therefore it is indeed public property.

For various reasons estates aren't always handed over by developers.

Does this create a loophole in the Road Traffic Acts?

I don't know and won't be speculating on here (afaik giving legal advice not permitted on boards)

As for "you can drive up and down your driveway all you like"

Sure you can, but you may regret not having insurance if you run over the postman / neigbours child etc...

green-blood

in a private place there is no legal requirement for insurance, that does not mean you are not LIABLE for your actions ...there is a difference

Steve

seamus wrote: »

And you're only required to tax and insure your vehicle if you wish to drive it on a public road.

Not correct, the wording used is 'public place' not 'public road'.

RTA-2004

56.—(1) A person (in this subsection referred to as the user) shall not use in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle unless—

blah blah blah insurance.....

RTA-1961

"public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

This just about covers driving anywhere accessable by the public including industrial estates and car parks.

Henry Ford III

Private in this context I believe to mean privately owned and with no public vehicle access.

p.s. Steve nailed the deinition above.

Eoin

This thread reminds me of a certain drdre who was done for doing "donuts" in an industrial estate. Funny times...

dodgyme

Dirty_Diesel wrote: »

When a housing estate is completed and all works are to the council's satisfaction then the estate is handed over to the council for their upkeep. So therefore it is indeed public property.

your last sentence is wrong. Until it is taken in charge it is regarded as private. Bye laws (not Road traffic laws) etc do not apply to it until it is taken in charge which is a major pain in the arse because the developers who usually administer estates basically do nothing in the period between selling the last house and taken in charge which can be anything up to 6 years or never thus far (in some cases I know). Again its the usual irish solution pass the buck stuff.

Johnny Utah

SteveC wrote: »

Not correct, the wording used is 'public place' not 'public road'.

RTA-2004


RTA-1961


This just about covers driving anywhere accessable by the public including industrial estates and car parks.

However, I don't think private housing estates with electric gates at the entrance would be construed as public places. Therefore, the Road Traffic Acts would not apply to these estates.

seamus

I stand corrected, thanks steve.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

However, I don't think private housing estates with electric gates at the entrance would be construed as public places. Therefore, the Road Traffic Acts would not apply to these estates.

A private gated housing estate or any other place into which the public wouldn't normally be granted access - such as an underground car park or a business's private car park - wouldn't require insurance.

Loosely speaking so, if the area is not gated, or is otherwise somewhere that is normally open to the public, then you need insurance. This includes paid-for carparks and gated hotel car parks.

Steve

Johnny Utah wrote: »

However, I don't think private housing estates with electric gates at the entrance would be construed as public places. Therefore, the Road Traffic Acts would not apply to these estates.

I'd say it's borderline as any member of the public can access it 'with permission'.

But then you could say that about your own driveway so I'm not sure.

I wouldn't be happy about an inexperienced uninsured driver doing laps of a housing estate whether it's legal or not. Yes, they are still liable for any damage - thats no good if they knock someone down and cause potential 5 figure medical bills with no way of paying them.

ShayK1

BTW... do you guys know that the OP asked about a "Business estate" not a housing estate...

Why does everyone keep referring to housing estates?

seamus

ShayK1 wrote: »

BTW... do you guys know that the OP asked about a "Business estate" not a housing estate...

Why does everyone keep referring to housing estates?

Because they're often used and quoted for this kind of thing too.

There's no difference really between the two except that business estates tend to be quieter outside of business hours.

The same rules apply to both, though I would say that an industrial/business/estate/park would almost always be considered a public place due to their being numerous businesses operating there, many of whom would have other businesses and customers calling to their premises.

Johnny Utah

SteveC wrote: »

I'd say it's borderline as any member of the public can access it 'with permission'.

But then you could say that about your own driveway so I'm not sure.

That's the difference between public place and private land; you need permission or a licence to enter the private land. I'm referring to estates where there may be electric gates to both the road and pedestrian entrance. A member of the public is unable to enter the private land without permission, whereas most other estates don't have gates and it is perfectly legal for anyone to drive around them should they so wish.


Your own driveway is private land. You could drive backwards and forwards (depending on length of driveway) to your heart's content without any insurance, though if your driveway was rather short like mine, then it would be pretty pointless :pac:

SteveC wrote: »

I wouldn't be happy about an inexperienced uninsured driver doing laps of a housing estate whether it's legal or not. Yes, they are still liable for any damage - thats no good if they knock someone down and cause potential 5 figure medical bills with no way of paying them.

Agreed.