Hunting makes animals weaker.

The_Minister

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/david_coltman/uploads/pdf/Nat2003.pdf
The above link is to a study called "Undesirable evolutionary consequences of trophy hunting".
Basically, the study says that because hunters target elk with the biggest horns, and other signs of strong maleness, that it is the weaker animals that are breeding, and already they are noticing the consequences.

My question to the people here is: "Do you hunt the strongest animals?"

The strongest animals are bigger, better for eating, and make for a better trophy, so they are often hunted before they can breed.
Or do youmake a special effort to take out the sick and weak, to strengthen the breed.

It wasn't me!

I think it'll vary greatly from person to person depending what they hunt and what their aims are in doing so.

If someone is hunting stags and wanting the head as a trophy, chances are they are looking for prime examples, whereas if someone is bashing away at rabbits, there's less in the way of trophy there, and a lot of people think the three quarters grown ones are the tastiest.

In the line of vermin control, hunting with hounds is more selective, in that it takes the sick, weak and old, while young, strong foxes are well capable of getting away from them. When hunting with rifles however, the vermin that are causing the problems that require them to be controlled are the ones going to get shot, regardless of age, strength or physical condition.

There's also of course the culling by rifle of rabbits with mixy or foxes with mange, out of mercy and to control the overall health of the population.

So really, the question is quite difficult to answer, as someone who shoots a host of different species will have to answer something along the lines of "all of the above".

The_Minister

So basically it only applies to trophy kills.

Does anyone know (or want to make an intelligent guess), at what % of kills are trophy hunting?

It wasn't me!

In Ireland, I would say a very small percentage. Worldwide, I imagine it's bigger, but I really doubt it exceeds the other kinds.

whitser

i would think most hunting in ireland is either for the table or vermin control.

jwshooter

The_Minister wrote: »

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/david_coltman/uploads/pdf/Nat2003.pdf
The above link is to a study called "Undesirable evolutionary consequences of trophy hunting".
Basically, the study says that because hunters target elk with the biggest horns, and other signs of strong maleness, that it is the weaker animals that are breeding, and already they are noticing the consequences.

My question to the people here is: "Do you hunt the strongest animals?"

The strongest animals are bigger, better for eating, and make for a better trophy, so they are often hunted before they can breed.
Or do youmake a special effort to take out the sick and weak, to strengthen the breed.

its a very interestion question .firstly its very hard to compare hunting in ireland to the usa or europe even england ,we have a freedom other countrys dont have its grand for the hunters but not so good for the deer ,as very few places in ireland manage deer .ie a cull plan .its more a case of shooting the first thing that steps out .witch is unfortunate.How many big strong prickets have we all seen shot with long spikes the lenght of the ear or longer .these animals should be left.young promising 6 and 8 pointers shot before there prime .for this reason i would say there is very good fallow bucks in the country as it takes them up to 10 years to reach there prime ,sika mature quicker and are also helped by the large estates and national park in wicklow it gives young animals a chance to mature only moving out for the rut thats why so many medal heads turn up there .i was told many years ago by all means shoot a stag for the wall but never shoot a lesser stag than your best one un less there is a very good reason for it .

bunny shooter

whitser wrote: »

i would think most hunting in ireland is either for the table or vermin control.

I agree with whitser, a very small % of hunting here is for trophies and +90% of any there is involves deer hunting IMO

John Griffin

Trophy hunting deer and other game animals can improve the over all health of a herd. But it must be managed Trophy hunting. It takes an experienced deer manager to identify the weaker stags when they are young and remove them from the herd, these are known as cull stags.

The strong stags are left to mature to their absolute prime and slightly beyond, in Red deer this is about 10-12 years of age, along the way they will have been at the top of the herd and will have passed on their strong traits to future generations. These animals are true trophies and will only be taken when studied and fully assessed. The key to deer management is the deer manager. Herds should be made up of 50/50 males to females and herd sizes need to be kept small and managable.This is the ideal, it is practiced in few places in this country.

For the most parts as JW says the first animal to walk out is shot and any promising animals are usually shot with the view that, if A.Hunter doesn't get it then B.Hunter will get it the next day.

It is the biggest problem for Fallow deer. Few Fallow bucks reach maturity in this country outside of the Phoenix Park. The chances of a buck avoiding A.Hunter and B.Hunter for 10 years are very slim and if they see him they will not pass up the chance and let him go to mature.

As JW said there is a better chance for the sika especially in Wicklow where there are a few large areas such as private estates and the National park where stags are properly managed and not shot prematurely.

Personally i shoot up to 200 deer a year, I shoot 90% Hinds and Calves. I have 4 Irish Trophy class animals, 2 Sika, 1 Fallow and 1 Red. All these deer were cull animals and were carefully selected for removal. The Fallow had a damaged leg and it pained me to have to shoot him after watching him for 5 years and knowing he was about 2 years from his prime. The Red i was invited to shoot as a cull animal because it was showing undesirable traits. The Sika had to be removed from an oak wood due for fencing.

We are relatively new to Deer shooting in this country. When i started out it was very much any deer will do, I learned the game and i think that is the key to deer management, education. Hopefully more and more people will adopt good deer management practices as they progress and they in turn will teach restraint and show the newcomers the right way to do it.

The_Minister

John Griffin wrote: »

Personally i shoot up to 200 deer a year, I shoot 90% Hinds and Calves.

:eek: Thats monsterous.
200? I'm all for hunting, but I thought it was a slow and careful process, with alot of time and effort put into the hunting of each animal, not a GTA-style binge.

When you say hinds and calves, do you kill the weak and infirm, or do you kill healthy babies too?

EDIT: Thank you for your long and detailed reply. It is just that you have turned my image of hunting upside-down.

Grizzly 45

On the trophy issue,if you are hunting outside Irl/UK.
To hunt serious trophy animals is very much a rich mans pastime.As you are charged by the trophy weight of the animals skull and antlers,horns etc.So a serious gold medal red stag could cost you up in the tens of thousands of euros.
Plus adding in your flight costs,transport,trophy preparation, bed and lodging,paying your guides etc.So you are ploughing a good amount of money back into the ecology and local commerce of the place you are hunting in. I would assume in the US/Canada it is no different and that hunting big trophies will cost you as well.Internationally the rule is;you shot it ,you pay for it.So thats where Identifying a good animal that you can afford,and going home with afew quid in the pocket.Or ringing the wife to organise a second mortage for the world class gold you just shot comes into play.:eek:

Yes there are Worldwide "rack hunters" for whom it is only the biggest set of antlers over the fireplace that they can afford that counts.Fortuneatly they are a minority,and can afford that kind of sport.For the rest of us maybe a serious trophy hunt out of Ireland ,is a once in a lifetime experiance.So we would hardly fit in that category here.

Minister,
going by JG post,it isnt that mosterous.It sounds like he is managing a very good and serious cull plan.That would be an average of two good managed Continental reserves.
BTW deer"babies"[abit emotive that;)] are called fawns or calves.Depending on breed.

meathstevie

Minister, I think you should know that a good part of John's job is wildlife management and related matters.

John Griffin

I cull deer professionally, the herd is counted twice a year, spring and autumn. The aim is to stop the population from growing out of control. Once you have established the number of deer in the area you must calculate the number that need to be shot to maintain the population and the habitat.

Remember that we have no natural predators for deer in this country so we must take the place of the predator or leave the deer populations grow out of control and self regulate through starvation and there are huge economic impacts in this also.

Normally approx 20% of a herd needs to be removed each year to maintain it. The most effective way of maintaining the population is to cull females, but you must also take the calves that are dependant on the females. Culling males has little effect on the population. Injured and sick animals are always culled when seen and take priority over healthy animals.

Thankfully there are few injured and sick animals and most of the animals culled are healthy.
200 deer may sound like alot of deer but not when the population you are dealing with is in excess of a 1000. It is a hugh amount of work and takes alot of time.The meat ends up on resturant menus. Every animal is tested by a dept of agriculture vet. The whole process is scientific and complex and not ad hoc.

The population of deer in Wicklow county alone is estimated somewhere in the region 40,000 +/- 20%.
There is approx 8,000 deer culled annually in Wicklow County.

Apologies if this seems slightly shocking but these are the realities of the world man has created, so now it is our responsibility to keep things in balance. The only other alternative is to abandon agriculture, farming and forestry and reintroduce all our native predators and remove all the alien species such as sika and fallow deer and allow nature to regulate itself. Only problem is where would we go?
Again apologies i do not mean to shock, i merely tell it as it is.
I am happy to answer your questions, i believe in educating the public. I am not a monster, i am a conservationist and i love wildlife and the countryside:)

The_Minister

Sorry, I thought you were shooting 200 a year for fun.

I have no problem shooting for the good of the herd, and I agree with culling, I was just shocked because I thought that you were a recreational hunter.:o

Vegeta

The_Minister wrote: »

Sorry, I thought you were shooting 200 a year for fun.

I have no problem shooting for the good of the herd, and I agree with culling, I was just shocked because I thought that you were a recreational hunter.:o

Can someone not be a recreational hunter while managing the local population?

It wasn't me!

I don't think a recreational hunter would have the time or funds. Jebus, that'd be anything up to about 400 quid for ammo alone, assuming none required a second shot, and ignoring zeroing and target practice. Crazy stuff. That said, a job I'd love to do, but I don't do ecology courses in college.

The_Minister

Vegeta wrote: »

Can someone not be a recreational hunter while managing the local population?

See the link above. Recreational hunters, unless they target suboptimal game (assuming that bigger is better), can damage herds by thinning out the stronger members.
I'm not one of Gormley's Goons, I have no problem with people hunting (within reason), and I have no problem with peoplehaving fun culling, as long as they target the animals that should be culled.
My shock was the idea that John Griffin conducted the hunting equivilant of dynamite-fishing, and mowed down scores of dear at a time:pac:

John Griffin

The_Minister wrote: »

Sorry, I thought you were shooting 200 a year for fun.

I have no problem shooting for the good of the herd, and I agree with culling, I was just shocked because I thought that you were a recreational hunter.:o

Nothing wrong with recreational hunter either!:) Without them we would be goosed. They account for the vast majority of Deer culled in this country. Some of them are out to put meat on the table, some are out for the biggest set of antlers they can get, some are commerical (selling meat and trophies), some manage their own hunting areas very well indeed much to their own expense. There are a minority that have little respect for anything but such is life, happens in all sectors.

I know recreational hunters that shoot as many deer as i do and they do it very professionally. JW is a perfect example. They do it for a love of the animals and the countryside and are very passionate about it and believe totally in what they are doing. I'm just lucky enough to get paid to do it.

We have approx 3,000 licenced deer hunters in Ireland and we are lucky to have them. Some of them need a little bit of educating in deer managment. But the majority are very professional hunters doing a very nessecssary service at their own expense. It certainly would be more cost effective for them to buy venision than hunt for it with the money they spend:)

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I don't think a recreational hunter would have the time or funds. Jebus, that'd be anything up to about 400 quid for ammo alone, assuming none required a second shot, and ignoring zeroing and target practice. Crazy stuff. That said, a job I'd love to do, but I don't do ecology courses in college.

we don't all live in Wicklow IWM

Herd is much smaller on my patch and I guess everywhere else in the country

Grizzly 45

Well,if you are a rec hunter,ist it in your best intrest to have some sort of cull plan as well?

The_Minister

It appears my impression of lonely men going into the woods together, spending hours stalking each animal, was mistaken.

If the system works then it works, if the recreational hunters are helping things along then thats grand.

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

we don't all live in Wicklow IWM

Herd is much smaller on my patch and I guess everywhere else in the country

Yeah, such is my fortune. Perhaps some day I'll get into deer stalking. Would love to come along on one anyway.

Grizzly 45

Dont know about the lonely men bit...But you are not far off the hours of stalking each animal bit:D.
It is in our Rec hunters best intrest that the system works and that we do leave prime animals there for the gene pool to stay strong.
It is where hunting is prohibited somtimes that you see some very sad inter bred and weak animals.I hate to say it,but our red Kerry herd isnt any wonderful sight.:( It needs some culling and some fresh genes introduced pretty quick.

Vegeta

The_Minister wrote: »

See the link above. Recreational hunters, unless they target suboptimal game (assuming that bigger is better), can damage herds by thinning out the stronger members.
I'm not one of Gormley's Goons, I have no problem with people hunting (within reason), and I have no problem with peoplehaving fun culling, as long as they target the animals that should be culled.
My shock was the idea that John Griffin conducted the hunting equivilant of dynamite-fishing, and mowed down scores of dear at a time:pac:

I suppose my offense is with the term recreational hunter. I'd say more than 99% of hunters in Ireland are in it as a form of recreation but that does not mean they cant practice good herd management.

Recreational hunter does not gurantee the person is a trophy hunter. That's a bit of a leap

Vegeta

The_Minister wrote: »

It appears my impression of lonely men going into the woods together, spending hours stalking each animal, was mistaken.

Not at all, its not too far from what you describe.

If I was closer to you I'd offer to bring ya for a day without firearms just so you could experience it

John Griffin

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I hate to say it,but our red Kerry herd isnt any wonderful sight.:( It needs some culling and some fresh genes introduced pretty quick.

This is one of the best managed herds in the country
It has been selectively culled for many years by a very dedicated bunch of Rangers down there. This herd was brought back from extinction. It must be remembered that these are hill animals not park animals and are rated the same as the scottish animals under CIC classifications. It would be unfair to compare them to english or continental park deer. When compared to the scottish herds they are quite fine animals.

As for introducing a new genetic line, until their status as our native Irish Red Deer has been proven otherwise it would be very unwise to introduce any outside gene pool. Dr Ruth Carden is researching the DNA of Irish Deer species at the moment and the results should make interesting reading.

The_Minister

Vegeta wrote: »

I suppose my offense is with the term recreational hunter. I'd say more than 99% of hunters in Ireland are in it as a form of recreation but that does not mean they cant practice good herd management.

Recreational hunter does not gurantee the person is a trophy hunter. That's a bit of a leap

Vegeta wrote: »

I suppose my offense is with the term recreational hunter. I'd say more than 99% of hunters in Ireland are in it as a form of recreation but that does not mean they cant practice good herd management.

Recreational hunter does not gurantee the person is a trophy hunter. That's a bit of a leap

I'm sorry if you are offended, but if you do it for fun, then you are a recreational hunter (there may be a better term, but that term is not inaccurate). Even if they are looking for food, not horns, that still biases them towards the healthiest deer, so a recreational hunter could be as damaging as a trophy hunter.

EDIT: Can I ask, out of curiousity; how many deer hunters are there in Ireland (I assume a license is needed).

It wasn't me!

The_Minister wrote: »

EDIT: Can I ask, out of curiousity; how many deer hunters are there in Ireland (I assume a license is needed).

3000 according to the statistic above.

Grizzly 45

John Griffin wrote: »

This is one of the best managed herds in the country
It has been selectively culled for many years by a very dedicated bunch of Rangers down there. This herd was brought back from extinction. It must be remembered that these are hill animals not park animals and are rated the same as the scottish animals under CIC classifications. It would be unfair to compare them to english or continental park deer. When compared to the scottish herds they are quite fine animals.

As for introducing a new genetic line, until their status as our native Irish Red Deer has been proven otherwise it would be very unwise to introduce any outside gene pool. Dr Ruth Carden is researching the DNA of Irish Deer species at the moment and the results should make interesting reading.

AH !!Thats what was wrong...Somone who should know better and has hunted deer all their lives, was obviously comparing them to deer on the Continent.Ok my mistake for listening to somone who was obviously biased and hadnt hunted Scottish deer to compare them.Suppose that is easy enough to happen.You look at continental animals with huge candelebra and then see our lot,you would think there is somthing definately wrong:o

Grizzly 45

Even if they are looking for food, not horns, that still biases them towards the healthiest deer, so a recreational hunter could be as damaging as a trophy hunter.

Antlers is the right term there.Cows goats and sheep have horns:) .

Errr not quite....If it is a trophy hunter he is paying an absolute fortune back into the system for the privilidge of having a house full of expensive trophies.
The money he pays into the system goes into paying rangers,research feeding of wild herds etc etc.
If he is a rec hunter he is still paying for hunting liscenses,tags,reserve fees,game damage to crops in some places,etc.He is still paying somwhere along the line to the upkeep of the herd.Be it in his finance,or personal time and effort. It is all quantative when you are talking of damage.
Is it damaging to pay over 50,000USD for one animal of which every cent is repaid into the system that protects the rest of the trophy animals?
Or is it more damaging to shoot a prime red stag that has got what are called muderous chacteristics?[IE it will physically attack and injure other lesser stags or cattle during the rut,when they are not in a challange for the Hinds].Yet it is a good prime breeder? There are no black and white answers in this.You cant say trophy hunters bad,rec hunters good,or vice versa,it can come down to a case by case situation as well.

ivanthehunter

John Griffin wrote: »

I cull deer professionally, the herd is counted twice a year, spring and autumn. The aim is to stop the population from growing out of control. Once you have established the number of deer in the area you must calculate the number that need to be shot to maintain the population and the habitat.

Remember that we have no natural predators for deer in this country so we must take the place of the predator or leave the deer populations grow out of control and self regulate through starvation and there are huge economic impacts in this also.

Normally approx 20% of a herd needs to be removed each year to maintain it. The most effective way of maintaining the population is to cull females, but you must also take the calves that are dependant on the females. Culling males has little effect on the population. Injured and sick animals are always culled when seen and take priority over healthy animals.

Thankfully there are few injured and sick animals and most of the animals culled are healthy.
200 deer may sound like alot of deer but not when the population you are dealing with is in excess of a 1000. It is a hugh amount of work and takes alot of time.The meat ends up on resturant menus. Every animal is tested by a dept of agriculture vet. The whole process is scientific and complex and not ad hoc.

The population of deer in Wicklow county alone is estimated somewhere in the region 40,000 +/- 20%.
There is approx 8,000 deer culled annually in Wicklow County.

Apologies if this seems slightly shocking but these are the realities of the world man has created, so now it is our responsibility to keep things in balance. The only other alternative is to abandon agriculture, farming and forestry and reintroduce all our native predators and remove all the alien species such as sika and fallow deer and allow nature to regulate itself. Only problem is where would we go?
Again apologies i do not mean to shock, i merely tell it as it is.
I am happy to answer your questions, i believe in educating the public. I am not a monster, i am a conservationist and i love wildlife and the countryside:)

What happens to all the meat? Is it used by people or do you drop it off to Dublin Zoo;)

Sparks

Ivan, read the mans post:

The meat ends up on resturant menus.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Ivan, read the mans post:

The thing you may keep in mind when ordrering venison in restaurants is its the stuff us hunters dont want ie rutting stags or worse bucks .i was in scotland two years ago shooting hinds in pitlorcy ,we were staying in a small hotel it was the first week of nov .we came dinner venison was on the menu ,lovely ordered a nice bottle of red to go with ,the veg arrived then the spuds then the fxxxxn smell from the kitchen we looked at each other and knew what we were getting ,it was not a leg of sika calf but a rutting red stag i can still smell it , i was hungry the next morning ,no wounder so many people dont like venison

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

The thing you may keep in mind when ordrering venison in restaurants is its the stuff us hunters dont want ie rutting stags or worse bucks .i was in scotland two years ago shooting hinds in pitlorcy ,we were staying in a small hotel it was the first week of nov .we came dinner venison was on the menu ,lovely ordered a nice bottle of red to go with ,the veg arrived then the spuds then the fxxxxn smell from the kitchen we looked at each other and knew what we were getting ,it was not a leg of sika calf but a rutting red stag i can still smell it , i was hungry the next morning ,no wounder so many people dont like venison

Yeah, very true. I don't order it when out, only when someone drops a chunk around. Doesn't happen as much as I'd like though, must say...

The_Minister

Does a rutting red stag mean what I think?

Or do you have a different word for rutting?

It wasn't me!

Probably exactly what you think.

If you really want to know what venison should taste like, you're unlikely to find it in a restaurant. Get in touch with someone who puts down a few deer a year and maybe do them a favour or otherwise earn yourself a cut. You won't look back.

Grizzly 45

Another golden rule of hunting.Never order game dishes in a resturant,unless you personally have supplied that game to that resturant.;).

John Griffin

What amazes me is that the game dealer doesn't even pay for the calves, he says the restaurants don't want them cos the cuts are too small. He can't sell them:rolleyes:.The biggest money is offered for stags at rut.I wouldn't eat that if i was paid.

I suppose it's a good thing in one sense, what the hell would you do with a stag otherwise, there's only so much you can give the mother in law:).
I think it's the chefs that are at fault for this one, if they were ordering calves and hinds, a lot more people would be eating venison.

You simply can't beat a striplion from a calf, BBQ'd and rare.:)

Vegeta

John Griffin wrote: »

What amazes me is that the game dealer doesn't even pay for the calves, he says the restaurants don't want them cos the cuts are too small. He can't sell them:rolleyes:.The biggest money is offered for stags at rut.I wouldn't eat that if i was paid.

I suppose it's a good thing in one sense, what the hell would you do with a stag otherwise, there's only so much you can give the mother in law:).
I think it's the chefs that are at fault for this one, if they were ordering calves and hinds, a lot more people would be eating venison.

You simply can't beat a striplion from a calf, BBQ'd and rare.:)

The_Minister wrote: »

Even if they are looking for food, not horns, that still biases them towards the healthiest deer, so a recreational hunter could be as damaging as a trophy hunter.

John's post above is exactly why I think saying recreational hunters are as bad as trophy hunters is not correct.

If its for the table you're not looking for the biggest, most number of points, heaviest, genetically superior deer. You're looking for one that's good to eat

jwshooter

Vegeta wrote: »

John's post above is exactly why I think saying recreational hunters are as bad as trophy hunters is not correct.

If its for the table you're not looking for the biggest, most number of points, heaviest, genetically superior deer. You're looking for one that's good to eat

not so ,most recreational hunters do most going in the rut and the hinds are out of season ,sep ,oct ,the game dealer is stuff full of stags mostly young promising stags and some mature stags with there heads cut off ,its also the worst time for poaching the days are longer and lads have more time to hunt , the best month for hind culling is feb its my favourate month .

John Griffin

jwshooter wrote: »

not so ,most recreational hunters do most going in the rut and the hinds are out of season ,sep ,oct ,the game dealer is stuff full of stags mostly young promising stags and some mature stags with there heads cut off ,its also the worst time for poaching the days are longer and lads have more time to hunt , the best month for hind culling is feb its my favourate month .

Very true!!
Serious poaching at this time due to the value of stags in the game dealers. I can't understand it, who the hell is eating that stuff. It seems that chefs are more into their presentation of venison rather than how it tastes.:mad:They are trying to present it like beef steaks, hence the big stag striplions. :rolleyes:

This is screwing up deer management and the market for venison. It's putting people off venison because their first impression of it is usually a bad one from a resturant. So it's unlikley they will ever buy venison again. I've met so many people that say they tried it once in a resturant and they didn't like it. Then i give them a bit of calf and they love it.

As for the standard recreational hunter, he shoots 1-5 stags and 0-3 hinds a year and finishes at the end of December when the stag season closes. This is usually defended by them saying "well i don't believe in shooting pregnant does" (this is what they usually call sika hinds:rolleyes:)

Thankfully there's a good percentage of lads above that bullsh!t doing a decent job. But they have alot of lads to convert.

Vegeta

jwshooter wrote: »

not so ,most recreational hunters do most going in the rut and the hinds are out of season ,sep ,oct ,the game dealer is stuff full of stags mostly young promising stags and some mature stags with there heads cut off ,its also the worst time for poaching the days are longer and lads have more time to hunt , the best month for hind culling is feb its my favourate month .

Apologies, my definition of recreational hunter must be way off as I wouldn't consider someone who shoots deer to sell it a recreational hunter

Clearly I am looking at things with my rose tinted glasses on.

jwshooter

Vegeta wrote: »

Apologies, my definition of recreational hunter must be way off as I wouldn't consider someone who shoots deer to sell it a recreational hunter

Clearly I am looking at things with my rose tinted glasses on.

a lot of pepole do,its a lovely image of a guy picking a animal for his table and eating it ,buts its mostly whack a stag from the window of a jeep along a road , you never hear a lad bragging about shooting a hind and calf and spending a hour dragging them ,i think the day of the pot hunter is slowly going out of the sport .more a cammo clown driving about in a jeep ,with no regard for man or beast

kerryman12

i think the day of the pot hunter is slowly going out of the sport .more a cammo clown driving about in a jeep ,with no regard for man or beast

Hopefully not, but they will alway be there I guess.