Help with my decision!

zale

Guys I've been talking about going green for long enough, now it's time for doing. But would like advice &/or direction please, i don't want to get it wrong....

As it stands......

House is 8yrs old, 5 bedroom, timber framed semi-d with 6 of us. 12 radiators heated by an internal oil boiler (gerkros gem 95) & an open fire heats the sitting room (no back boiler). I'm also upgrading the house insulating.

My plan is.......

1. Remove open fire & replace with a 23kw multi fuel stove (with back boiler). Or would I be better off leaving the open fire and going with a range in the kitchen/living room.

2. Solar panels for DHW, (Question, is a solar heating system viable).

3. Replace oil boiler with wood pellet.....here's where I can't decide, to go with internal or external unit. I have the space outside but storage/hopper/unit seems like a big job (is it). Brands are confusing to, has anyone any experience with solarfocus boilers.

Am I on the right track or do I need to reconsider. Also the names of reputable brands and companies for both stoves, solar & boilers would be appreciated and of coarse all advice welcome.

Thanks.

sinnerboy

check your building fabric out first before you look at how to heat your internal space and provide hot water

get hold of a good air tightness tester . an 8 year old timber frame may be quite leaky . if a test result indicates a poor result then - smoke test and maybe thermal imaging are next to idendtify problems and remedial works .

you may opt to add insulated plasterboard , ie dryline .

you may simply replace as many light fitting as poss. with low energy type .

1st green principle - get the energy demand down as low as possible and then look at how to provide that demand .

You could spend 15-20K going wood pellet boiler - 5-6k on solar panels - you would be better looking to spend that as i have suggested

No6

If possible consider upgrading insulation first, if replacing oil boiler with a wood pellet boiler, I dont think there is a small internal version, they are quite big generally, and yes the storage is bulky & awkward so you need space, have you got a large empty garage?. Solar will never pay back if you install wood pellet as it will also heat your dhw, you also will not have the expense of changing the cylinder!! Can the mulit fuel stove actually be connected to the cylinder as a retro fit, check the plumbing can be done before you buy!! if not just get one without the back boiler, far better than an open fire any day.

MickLimk

No6 wrote: »

Solar will never pay back if you install wood pellet as it will also heat your dhw

Having a dim day myself here so can you explain the logic of that statement for me? Almost every single boiler will heat your domestic hot water but surely there is a benefit in having your boiler turned off for a few months of the (summer!) year regardless of what fuel it's burning when you only want hot water and not any space heating?

No6

MickLimk wrote: »

Having a dim day myself here so can you explain the logic of that statement for me? Almost every single boiler will heat your domestic hot water but surely there is a benefit in having your boiler turned off for a few months of the (summer!) year regardless of what fuel it's burning when you only want hot water and not any space heating?

Install a valve on your heating system to switch from rads & DHW to DHW only and leave the boiler on for an hour or so a day, it only heats the hot water then at the cost of a few pellets, maybe 60 for the whole summer, I make that about 100 years payback!!:D (totally exculding the winter usage etc etc, very ball park calculation and assuming that the solar costs 6000!!)

MickLimk

sinnerboy wrote: »

1st green principle - get the energy demand down as low as possible and then look at how to provide that demand .

Best advice you'll ever get.

No6 wrote: »

Install a valve on your heating system to switch from rads & DHW to DHW only and leave the boiler on for an hour or so a day, it only heats the hot water then at the cost of a few pellets, maybe 60 for the whole summer, I make that about 100 years payback!!:D (totally exculding the winter usage etc etc, very ball park calculation and assuming that the solar costs 6000!!)

I understand about the zoning alright but now you made me try and wake myself up to attempt a few more calculations!

Current prices I have:
Pellet: 5.228c/kWh (based on €235/tonne, 92% efficiency boiler)
Oil: 10.094c/kWh (94.25c/litre kerosene, 95% efficiency boiler)
Gas: 5.387c/kWh (current rate before impending increase, 95% efficiency boiler)
ESB: 18.13c/kWh (new Aug 1st rate, 100% (?) efficient immersion)

Using the figures from the EN12975 cert of a Northern Ireland manufactured evac tube, delivered annual energy for a 40 tube (2x20 tubes, 4.27m2 aperture area) panel is 2694.37kWh when used for domestic hot water heating. If you were to use the solar setup for water preheating (not that common in Ireland) in conjunction with another heating system (such as wood pellet), this delivered energy figure would rise to 3428.81kWh/year.

The savings then work out as:
Pellet: €140.86 (DHW)/ €179.26 (pre-heat) per year
Gas: €145.15 (DHW)/ €184.71 (pre-heat) per year
Oil: €271.97 (DHW)/ €346.10 (pre-heat) per year
ESB: €488.49 (DHW)/ €621.64 (pre-heat) per year

For a 5m2 flat plate system manufactured by the company that also manufactures the most well known roof windows, its annual energy output is rated at 3222kWh for DHW usage giving savings of:
Pellet: €168.45/yr
Gas: €173.57/yr
Oil: €325.23/yr
ESB: €584.15/yr

As to payback times, I don't have a price to hand on the tube system but the last price I got for the plate system including a cylinder was €3475 incl. 21% VAT but not including installation (not going down that road!). Assuming it's a retrofit and not a new build, a grant of €1250 is currently available bringing the material cost down to €2225. Figuring the payback times then:
Pellet: 13.2 years
Gas: 12.8 years
Oil: 6.8 years
ESB: 3.8 years

I know that I haven't included installation prices but neither have I made any allowance for increasing fuel prices and fuel costs are only going one way. I'm really hoping that we aren't going to see the trend continuing at the current rate especially since oil was $10.82/barrel in July 1998 and prices last Friday hit a record $147/barrel...

Yes I do have an interest in the solar installation business but think I've been pretty fair and honest here and quite generous with the boiler efficiencies. If I've made any mistakes, please let me know!

zale

sinnerboy wrote: »

check your building fabric out first before you look at how to heat your internal space and provide hot water

get hold of a good air tightness tester . an 8 year old timber frame may be quite leaky . if a test result indicates a poor result then - smoke test and maybe thermal imaging are next to idendtify problems and remedial works .

you may opt to add insulated plasterboard , ie dryline .

you may simply replace as many light fitting as poss. with low energy type .

1st green principle - get the energy demand down as low as possible and then look at how to provide that demand .

You could spend 15-20K going wood pellet boiler - 5-6k on solar panels - you would be better looking to spend that as i have suggested

What kind of money are you talking to get an air tightness test done.

I don't think I'd go as far as insulated plasterboard, the walls & floors aren't to bad for insulation, it was just the attics that needed doubling up.

I've replaced all 28 light bulbs in the house with cfls (not all at once mind :eek:)

I've decided to leave the pellet boiler for now cause of money & space and go with the stove with back boiler & solar panels.

Would you still advise an air tightness test before I continue.

The only panels locally are by solarfocus, has anyone any comments on these please.

Thanks All.

Oh forgot to mention the cylinder at the mo is just an ordinary copper one so will have to be replaced either way.

No6

MickLimk wrote: »

Best advice you'll ever get.



I understand about the zoning alright but now you made me try and wake myself up to attempt a few more calculations!

Current prices I have:
Pellet: 5.228c/kWh (based on €235/tonne, 92% efficiency boiler)
Oil: 10.094c/kWh (94.25c/litre kerosene, 95% efficiency boiler)
Gas: 5.387c/kWh (current rate before impending increase, 95% efficiency boiler)
ESB: 18.13c/kWh (new Aug 1st rate, 100% (?) efficient immersion)

Using the figures from the EN12975 cert of a Northern Ireland manufactured evac tube, delivered annual energy for a 40 tube (2x20 tubes, 4.27m2 aperture area) panel is 2694.37kWh when used for domestic hot water heating. If you were to use the solar setup for water preheating (not that common in Ireland) in conjunction with another heating system (such as wood pellet), this delivered energy figure would rise to 3428.81kWh/year.

The savings then work out as:
Pellet: €140.86 (DHW)/ €179.26 (pre-heat) per year
Gas: €145.15 (DHW)/ €184.71 (pre-heat) per year
Oil: €271.97 (DHW)/ €346.10 (pre-heat) per year
ESB: €488.49 (DHW)/ €621.64 (pre-heat) per year

For a 5m2 flat plate system manufactured by the company that also manufactures the most well known roof windows, its annual energy output is rated at 3222kWh for DHW usage giving savings of:
Pellet: €168.45/yr
Gas: €173.57/yr
Oil: €325.23/yr
ESB: €584.15/yr

As to payback times, I don't have a price to hand on the tube system but the last price I got for the plate system including a cylinder was €3475 incl. 21% VAT but not including installation (not going down that road!). Assuming it's a retrofit and not a new build, a grant of €1250 is currently available bringing the material cost down to €2225. Figuring the payback times then:
Pellet: 13.2 years
Gas: 12.8 years
Oil: 6.8 years
ESB: 3.8 years

I know that I haven't included installation prices but neither have I made any allowance for increasing fuel prices and fuel costs are only going one way. I'm really hoping that we aren't going to see the trend continuing at the current rate especially since oil was $10.82/barrel in July 1998 and prices last Friday hit a record $147/barrel...

Yes I do have an interest in the solar installation business but think I've been pretty fair and honest here and quite generous with the boiler efficiencies. If I've made any mistakes, please let me know!

Show off!! perhaps you missed my point completely, but since youve started, pellets are slightly less than 200 per tonne!!(yes I just checked with a supplier) the average cost of 6m² solar panels including instalation seems to be 6000, grants are no longer available for new build, but on retro fit grant will be 1500 for 6m², total cost 4500 / 168.25 (your figure) = 26.7 years Payback with a wood pellet system will the solar panels even last half that long??....my point being it dosnt make sense to install two systems pick one or the other the capital cost for any system is quite large and choose the one with the fastest payback. (makes sense to me!!) I'm not involved in selling any system solar pellet or geo

sinnerboy

zale wrote: »

What kind of money are you talking to get an air tightness test done.

about €1k

Independent

Is it really necessary to perform an air tightness test? I see this as pointless and a waste of money. Surely a energy assessor will be able to identify areas where excessive heat loss occurs. Heat loss will always happen at the typical areas/junctions ie. around windows/doors, at penetrations of building fabric etc. And if building control persists on having it done it should be done at the exspense of the builder. Surely it would be a reflection on him and his workmanship. As a retired builder i think the Ber scheme is a great idea, but dont agree with this air tightness bull.

sydthebeat

Independent wrote: »

Is it really necessary to perform an air tightness test? I see this as pointless and a waste of money. Surely a energy assessor will be able to identify areas where excessive heat loss occurs. Heat loss will always happen at the typical areas/junctions ie. around windows/doors, at penetrations of building fabric etc. And if building control persists on having it done it should be done at the exspense of the builder. Surely it would be a reflection on him and his workmanship. As a retired builder i think the Ber scheme is a great idea, but dont agree with this air tightness bull.

Firstly, yes an air tightness test will be necessary where applicable under the new regs.

Yes, the lack of air tightness is a direct reflection of the skill of the builder, and i believe some builders are in for big shocks once these test become commonplace.
A dwelling will require a min air tightness factor of 10. It will at the cost of the builder to do this. picture this example

A contract will be signed with a builder with a minimum requirement of meeting the regulations. work commences
The dwelling is made weather tight and an airtightness test is carried out. A result of 35 is gotten. It will then be at the cost to the builder to get this figure down to 10, at the advice and specification of the air tightness tester (usually). If say, a complete membrane is required, then this will be a significant cost to the builder and he/she wont be long about getting their details correct in the next build.

it can only be a good thing to better the workmanship on site.

Independent

Syd, i agree to an extent, maybe it probably should be compulsory for timberframe as for typical block cavity construction i dont see the point. I can't see people being bothered getting this done. As i said earlier it should be on the builder to hand over a cert performed by an independent air tightness assessor to the homeowner. I can't see this being enforced either.

sinnerboy

Independent wrote: »

Syd, i agree to an extent, maybe it probably should be compulsory for timberframe as for typical block cavity construction i dont see the point. I can't see people being bothered getting this done. As i said earlier it should be on the builder to hand over a cert performed by an independent air tightness assessor to the homeowner. I can't see this being enforced either.

It WILL be done . B Regs requirement . It is not bull .

We have already reached a point where we are approaching the practical maximum amounts of insulation that can be incorporated into a build are being incorporated

As we attempt to make further improvements in energy efficiency it is vital to address air tightness .

It does not matter what the basic build is ( timber frame / block / others ) the usual suspects are - at window openings , services penetrations , at floor / wall and at roof/wall junctions . So there very much is a point in testing .

The good news for the OP and anyone else interested is that with an existing house the following scenario is very very feasible

Get air test done - including smoke gun to identify leaks
Seal leaks - typically
- remove plaster from window heads reveals and remove cill boards and seal window frame to wall fabric using purpose designed tape
- expose soil pipes behind ducts and seal to floor
- seal cable entries to elec points ( with intumescent sealer ) and re fit face plates
- pu foam to waste pipes through walls

Items like that .

cost of test - about €1k
cost of sealing - maybe €1~1.5k , including making good ( most of cost )

Benefit - same as possibly €1000's spent on internal drylining and associated costs

Independent

Sinnerboy, you havent much construction experience by the sound of it. If you think people are going to pay €1k to €2.5k to have people come in to perform an airtightness test, fill their house with smoke, knock down reveals etc. and then go around sealing everthing up with a roll of tape!!!!
Get a grip. There are lots of building regulations that people dont pay any attention too and this is just going to be another one. Why would people bother who's going to take them up.

sinnerboy

Independent wrote: »

Sinnerboy, you havent much construction experience by the sound of it. If you think people are going to pay €1k to €2.5k to have people come in to perform an airtightness test, fill their house with smoke, knock down reveals etc. and then go around sealing everthing up with a roll of tape!!!!
Get a grip. There are lots of building regulations that people dont pay any attention too and this is just going to be another one. Why would people bother who's going to take them up.

we are all learning all the time ......

sydthebeat

Independent wrote: »

Sinnerboy, you havent much construction experience by the sound of it. If you think people are going to pay €1k to €2.5k to have people come in to perform an airtightness test, fill their house with smoke, knock down reveals etc. and then go around sealing everthing up with a roll of tape!!!!
Get a grip. There are lots of building regulations that people dont pay any attention too and this is just going to be another one. Why would people bother who's going to take them up.

I agree to a certain extent, and i hope this situation changes.. mainly because of the amount of certifiers out there who are either:
1. ignorant of regulation updates
2. more interested in collecting their fee
3. not afraid of any consequences of certifying incorrectly.

But you cannot measure the industry standard by the actions of cowboys. In my experience it takes a while before all construction professionals become educated to the regs. This WILL be enforced by any competent certifier.

muffler

Independent wrote: »

Sinnerboy, you havent much construction experience by the sound of it. If you think people are going to pay €1k to €2.5k to have people come in to perform an airtightness test, fill their house with smoke, knock down reveals etc. and then go around sealing everthing up with a roll of tape!!!!
Get a grip. There are lots of building regulations that people dont pay any attention too and this is just going to be another one. Why would people bother who's going to take them up.

Get a grip yourself. If you want to continue posting here be a bit more civilised. Attack the post if you wish but not the poster.

Infraction given and just be grateful that Im in a good mood today.

Independent

My apologies to all concerned. I was'nt personally attacking sinnerboy, just his opinion. I may have been a bit harsh with that post but it bothers me when all these regulations are put out there and you get people saying this and that has to be done etc. I think the construction industry is creating another industry for its members because of the slowdown. Why did'nt they introduce the Ber scheme and air tightness 10 years ago when the construction was booming? Whatever about the Ber scheme i don't rate air tightness testing, and i know from experience it wont be inforced nor it should'nt be. Building control in this country has'nt got a clue.

sydthebeat

Independent wrote: »

My apologies to all concerned. I was'nt personally attacking sinnerboy, just his opinion. I may have been a bit harsh with that post but it bothers me when all these regulations are put out there and you get people saying this and that has to be done etc. I think the construction industry is creating another industry for its members because of the slowdown.

1. Why did'nt they introduce the Ber scheme and air tightness 10 years ago when the construction was booming?

2. Whatever about the Ber scheme i don't rate air tightness testing, and i know from experience it wont be inforced nor it should'nt be.

3. Building control in this country has'nt got a clue.

1. ifs ands and buts. they didnt.
2. i dont know how you know from experience as its only come into effect since july 1st, so its impossible that any dwelling has been subject to these regs.
3. I agree, again to a certain extent. However this is more pertaining to certifiers than building control.. Building control only inspect 15% of new builds, 95% of new builds have to be certified. Therefore its the certifiers who are putting their name, PI insurance and professional reputation on the line when issuing certs of compliance, that this affects most.

Independent

Syd, when i say i know from experience i'm talking in general about regs nobody enforces them. You say 95% of new builds need air tightness testing. Who is going to inforce this, the testers? it certainly wont be the homeowners why would they pay for something that they dont need, and as i say building control is only a name.

sydthebeat

Independent wrote: »

Syd, when i say i know from experience i'm talking in general about regs nobody enforces them. You say 95% of new builds need air tightness testing. Who is going to inforce this, the testers? it certainly wont be the homeowners why would they pay for something that they dont need, and as i say building control is only a name.

independent, you dont seem to read the posts.

The certifiers WILL enforce this. They have to. They say to client, in order for you to get a cert of compliance and draw down the remaining of your mortgage, you need an airtightness test done, and it needs to meet the value of 10. If you dont get this done, you dont get your money. Simple as.

Independent

Ok so the certifier has to submit a cert of compliance to the bank so a homeowner can draw down the mortgage. This dose'nt seem right firstly i thought it was architects that issued certs of compliance. And if it was a condition for drawing your mortgage the Law Society would have to ok it.

sydthebeat

Independent wrote: »

Ok so the certifier has to submit a cert of compliance to the bank so a homeowner can draw down the mortgage. This dose'nt seem right firstly i thought it was architects that issued certs of compliance. And if it was a condition for drawing your mortgage the Law Society would have to ok it.

ok, independent, i dont wish to pull you up on anything, but you obviously dont know the processes and legalities. Therefore your opinions are simply that, opinions, and not very well informed ones at that.

Independent

Syd, your are right i don't know i wish i could find out how air tightness is going to be policed, there are so many conflicting opinions here. And i thought thats what people posted here their opinions. What makes you such an expert? Do you work in this area?

muffler

Independent wrote: »

Syd, your are right i don't know i wish i could find out how air tightness is going to be policed, there are so many conflicting opinions here. And i thought thats what people posted here their opinions. What makes you such an expert? Do you work in this area?

Independent, you are starting to ruffle a few feathers here. You have stated that you are a retired builder and thats fine. But please understand that most if not all of the regulars who contribute here are either qualified professionals - mostly architectural technicians/technologists working full time on projects which involve air tightness testing, BER certs etc or are people who work full time at testing and certification etc.

Now unless you can convince me that you possess the same qualifications then I would suggest that you do the "asking and listening act" rather than trying to disrupt good posts with your limited knowledge in this area.

Just think before you post. You are of course entitled to your opinion - and thats all it is - but dont be so disruptive. The forum is running smooth and I intend to keep it that way. I trust you understand the message that I am sending here.

sydthebeat

Independent wrote: »

Syd, your are right i don't know i wish i could find out how air tightness is going to be policed, there are so many conflicting opinions here. And i thought thats what people posted here their opinions. What makes you such an expert? Do you work in this area?

independent, the air tightness will be policed in the same fashion that windows are policed to ensure they comply with fire regulations, the same way insulation is policed to ensure them meet energy regs, the same way ventilation in buildings is policed, the same way disabled access is policed etc etc.

Its up to the professional capacity of the person that is certifying the building, be they an archtect, technician, engineer, surveyor, whatever.

Thats the system, and whilst far from perfect, it is getting better.

Independent

Muffler, i take offence at you insinuating that i'm being disruptive. I'm merely putting my point across. Just because these so called full time professionnals don't agree does'nt mean i'm being disruptive. And i don't recall when joining boards to submit a CV. I don't have to convince anybody how qualified i am. I would ask you to refrain from speaking to me in such a demeaning manner again.

sinnerboy

See post 15 of this thread .....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055301179&highlight=air+tight

muffler

Independent wrote: »

Muffler, i take offence at you insinuating that i'm being disruptive. I'm merely putting my point across. Just because these so called full time professionnals don't agree does'nt mean i'm being disruptive. And i don't recall when joining boards to submit a CV. I don't have to convince anybody how qualified i am. I would ask you to refrain from speaking to me in such a demeaning manner again.

The forum will run a lot smoother without you. Goodbye.