cost of renewable energy

betonit

Ive been looking at renewables because of the cost of oil, electricity etc and what i have found is the cost is prohibative for the ordinary person, incl grants.
Someone would have to take out a loan when interest rates are rising and jobs arent secure, to install a decent heating system wether its PV , woodpellet etc. So renewable technology will not take off for the vast majority of people. There are so many products out there and there is a huge demand for renewable alternative energy but there is no market for it because of the costs.
For the moment all people can do (vast majority) is watch consumption.
Or am I missing some new solution. What could someone do on the average industrial wage?

Slig

betonit wrote: »

Ive been looking at renewables because of the cost of oil, electricity etc and what i have found is the cost is prohibative for the ordinary person, incl grants.
Someone would have to take out a loan when interest rates are rising and jobs arent secure, to install a decent heating system wether its PV , woodpellet etc. So renewable technology will not take off for the vast majority of people. There are so many products out there and there is a huge demand for renewable alternative energy but there is no market for it because of the costs.
For the moment all people can do (vast majority) is watch consumption.
Or am I missing some new solution. What could someone do on the average industrial wage?

Renewable energy was never "free" energy. there is usually a high initial cost, however subsiquent energy generated is substantially cheaper than the alternative non-sustainable methods.
The payback period is the figure to watch. Some solutuions such as PV cells have a very long payback period and therefor are not viable as maintenance and lifespan issues mean that you are replacing them before they have made a return.

Steve

AFAIK, solar water heating is probably the most cost effective at the moment.

As slig said, the long payback is the problem.

Slig

Ya solar water heating is probably the most efficent, but only if you arent using a boiler to heat the water aswell.

sydthebeat

solar collectors and installation have a high payback period, according to DEAP calculations.
These collectors would need to be working, without significant maintenance, for approx 10-15 years in most cases before payback is achieved.

obviously they are very useful, but when compared with baseline figures theyre probably as economically 'stretched' as geothermal systems.

betonit

thanks for the feedback

The point im making is that the push to get people on to renewables isnt going to work because of these initial costs. Thats the current state of play.
So there needs to be a new strategy or product for the majority to reduce their dependancy on oil.

How do we rate in comparison with other countries on our depandancy on oil, if other countries are less depandant how are they doing it, can we copy? You hear of towns and cities in Germany/ Finland etc being powered from biosgas plants (sewage!), buses running on veg oil. Why are we doing this? If our power was comming from biogas we wouldnt have to be retro fitting houses at what seems to be at a snails pace.

Test6699

For the cost of solar installation in an existing house a huge amount of insulation could be bought. Attic insulation etc could make a big difference.
Even a new house paying that bit extra to have slightly thicker walls to put in extra insulation is worth it before looking at things like solar.

badolepuddytat

Test6699 wrote: »

For the cost of solar installation in an existing house a huge amount of insulation could be bought. Attic insulation etc could make a big difference.
Even a new house paying that bit extra to have slightly thicker walls to put in extra insulation is worth it before looking at things like solar.

Bang on there.

Insulation (attic & walls). heating controls. low energy lighting. stove in place of an open fire if you use it.

typical paybacks on doing a full house upgrade on all these measures 2-5 years depending on the initial state. (assuming on oil at 94c/l which it is where i am). government grants next year of 30%, but if you lose a heating season waiting for the grants.... it may be pointless.

No6

badolepuddytat wrote: »

government grants next year of 30%, quote]

if its like the pilot scheme 30% up to a max of 2500... only worth waiting for if you are doing some small works, its a drop in the ocean for a major energy efficient refurb!!

badolepuddytat

No6 wrote: »

badolepuddytat wrote: »

government grants next year of 30%, quote]

if its like the pilot scheme 30% up to a max of 2500... only worth waiting for if you are doing some small works, its a drop in the ocean for a major energy efficient refurb!!

7500 would go a long way in most houses if you stayed away from windows.

max of 7500 means more houses can get a lower amount.... or looking at it another way, more houses can save the easiest things to save on..... smart thinking from a government POV. I think they should give 60% to a max of 1500 and target lower income housing.

No6

Dont get me wrong, every little bit will help but theres a lot of old housing stock that will need considerably more than 7500 spend on them even excluding the windows. I agree the % grant level should be greater for low income housing or more particurarly in housing for the elderly even 100% funded in some cases but 2500 of a grant is still quite low considering what you can spend on a house, 7500 might get your cavity pumped, some windows replaced and some extra fibre glass in your attic assuming you live in a three bed semi, anything that involves drylining or external insulation will be consideably more expensive.

Eurorunner

badolepuddytat wrote: »

stove in place of an open fire if you use it.

So are you saying one of those small little stoves are more efficient?
Have open fire - have never used it to date - and has been a pain between heat loss and down draught. Although, may be throwing a little bit of turf into it this winter. Anyone got any particular stove recommendations? Also, don't have much space - small fireplace and marble surround is small - these wont sit flush within fireplace will they??

No6

Not unless you've got a large fireplace, they usually sit forward of the wall, there's a huge range of them available, not hugely expensive for some basic models and vastly more efficient than an open fire and a lot hotter on less fuel too.

MickLimk

Eurorunner wrote: »

So are you saying one of those small little stoves are more efficient?
Have open fire - have never used it to date - and has been a pain between heat loss and down draught. Although, may be throwing a little bit of turf into it this winter. Anyone got any particular stove recommendations? Also, don't have much space - small fireplace and marble surround is small - these wont sit flush within fireplace will they??

Looking at installing one of these myself at the minute and hoping it will sit into the fireplace. Won't be flush at the front but do want it back in as far as possible to save me having to replace a granite hearth. The only one I've found so far that I think will fit (very tight though) is a Waterford Stanley 'Oisin' stove. I've seen the non-boiler version of these for sale at €450 which is very reasonable. By my measurements, I'm hoping it will fit into a fireplace with a standard 18" fireback. Will be awkward to fit the flue though...

Eurorunner

These still are not room sealed though - by their very nature? The difference is that theres less of an opening right?
Even more unfortunate is that theres no back boiler installed - another opportunity missed at build stage.

MickLimk

Eurorunner wrote: »

These still are not room sealed though - by their very nature? The difference is that theres less of an opening right?
Even more unfortunate is that theres no back boiler installed - another opportunity missed at build stage.

The idea I'm going is that they are a lot more room sealed than an open fire. Where the flue from the stove heads up the chimney (connected to a new flue liner) is sealed meaning that the only air escaping up the chimney is through the stove. Most stoves have a damper and doors that are fairly air tight so they could effectively be considered room sealed I hope.

Any BER assessors there care to comment on what the effect of replacing an open fire with a stove has on energy ratings?

No6

You can get them with a back boiler, very difficult to retro fit the pipework though and it reduces the heat from the stove. They have a air regulator on the front of them, they use very little air compared to an open fire, I'd have to check DEAP to give you efficency %'s for open fire and stoves but there is a big difference.

Eurorunner

No6 wrote: »

I'd have to check DEAP to give you efficency %'s for open fire and stoves but there is a big difference.

Would be good if you do find the time.
Sounds like this is the most worthwhile change I could make - even if I never use it. On certain evenings, the downdraught can be absolutely chronic. Was thinking of putting one of those 'caps' on the chimney top - but this sounds like money better spent....if i can get one to fit.
Will measure up fireplace this evening.

Eurorunner

Just measured fireplace.
depth to inside of grate = 25cm
width at back = 30cm
width at front = 40cm.


Is this going to be too small to fit one of these in? Anyone got one in a similar sized fireplace?

No6

It sounds too small to me, block it up an make a soot box out of it and put the stove in front of the fireplace on the hearth.

badolepuddytat

RE: DEAP

Deap gives a ventilation rate of 40M3 for a chimney or 20 for a flue (enclosed stove).

If you can supply air to the stove from external (which is the case where i grew up and in some newer low energy houses). your ventilation rate will decrease to 0.

re; Stove efficiency Vs Open fire: Open fires are given in DEAP at 30%, many industry figures would all this 15% at best.... Open fire with Back boiler in deap is given 50%, again it would be considered very optimistic. Stoves in DEAP get a miserly 55%, but rated efficiencies (EN13240) for some of the better ones are in the mid 70s (nestor martin, charnwood etc). they are at the top end of the price range (Still affordable).

In reality you could go from 15-20% to 70% easily enough and reduce your ventilation heat loss by 50% (due to chimney)


RE: 7500 being too little.

Obviously depends on the house. Anything built of cavity construction, which must be 40+% of houses, 7500 would have a big effect. Lets wait and see what happens on the new rant scheme..... time will tell.

CJhaughey

The Morso squirrel will probably fit that.
If not there are smaller stoves available.
Squirrel Dims are H-546mm W-388 D 415
There is an option for rear exit flue which would suit that fireplace.

Eurorunner

badolepuddytat wrote: »

Stoves in DEAP get a miserly 55%, but rated efficiencies (EN13240) for some of the better ones are in the mid 70s (nestor martin, charnwood etc). they are at the top end of the price range (Still affordable).

Can the manufacturers figures be used for the energy rating?

badolepuddytat wrote: »

In reality you could go from 15-20% to 70% easily enough and reduce your ventilation heat loss by 50% (due to chimney)

Sounds like the first cost effective improvement I have found (i'm not convinced yet that payback period is short enough on solar, etc.). How much of a difference could this make on the rating of a typical block built 4 bed semi (2004)?

CJhaughey wrote:

the Morso squirrel will probably fit that.
If not there are smaller stoves available.
Squirrel Dims are H-546mm W-388 D 415
There is an option for rear exit flue which would suit that fireplace.

Thanks for that CJ. Do you have particular experience with these stoves?
Forgive my ignorance, but why would rear exit flue suit better in this instance?
The hearth is quite narrow and as you can see, I have carpet in living room. Just wondering what minimum clearance between floor and front of stove would I need to stick to so that there wouldn't be any accidents?

Anyone any idea what sort of money installation should cost for something like this?

sorry for all the questions!:)

Eurorunner

Been looking into using the Morso Squirrel as suggested by CJH above. Remeasured fireplace with the dimensions of Squirrel in mind.

Because fireplace narrows, the Squirrel would only fit in between the two biros (see pic). This leaves a measy 8cm clearance between carpet and front of stove. Then the height is another issue. It will just clear the top frame of the fireplace - which is a little bit more than 54. However, this doesn't leave enough space for top mounted flue. If I tried to use rear exit flue, snookered yet again - as theres a section of the back fireplace wall juts forward at an angle.

Going to call into a local place that deals in stoves this afternoon to see if they have any ideas as to how I can get this sorted. In the meantime, if anyone has any suggestions, please post them here.

MickLimk

You could always take out the fireback. This is what I'm planning to do and I know it's not a big deal for me to remove it. This should allow you to set back the stove further into the opening.

I'm not 100% sure about the building regs on a stove but my understanding is that an open fireplace is supposed to have 500mm of a hearth in front of the opening. Might want to take that into consideration.

Eurorunner

MickLimk wrote: »

You could always take out the fireback.

So I can just hack it back with a chisel then? What mix goes into the fireback anyways....i mean is it anything special? (sorry, if this is basic but I if i dont ask...!)

Eurorunner

MickLimk wrote: »

You could always take out the fireback.

So I can just hack it back with a chisel then? What mix goes into the fireback anyways....i mean is it anything special? (sorry, if this is basic but I if i dont ask...!)

MickLimk wrote:

I'm not 100% sure about the building regs on a stove but my understanding is that an open fireplace is supposed to have 500mm of a hearth in front of the opening. Might want to take that into consideration.

Would there be insurance implications here if worst should happen and didn't have 50cm clear hearth in front of stove? Budget is as tight as a ducks behind at the moment so don't really have funds to extend hearth. I wonder is there anything else I could put down surrounding the hearth/over carpet - that wouldn't look totally hideous??

Eurorunner

JJust called to stove supplier and he's recommending the Esse 350 stove. Apparently, fireplace insert will have to be replaced as its not suitable for use with these stoves as well as hacking back into fireback.
So really is down to choice of stove. Haven't got a price locally yet but quick look online and have the Squirrel (71% efficiency/6kW output) at 650 or Esse 350 (72% efficency/7kW output) @ 700 sterling. Which of these is the better stove? How much faith can be placed in manufacturers efficiency ratings? Also, how do these ratings relate to turf - would turf fair out better or worse seeing as ratings are based on logs?

CJhaughey

Both of those stoves are good, and more importantly backed by a reputable manufacturer.
I have a squirrel myself and have found it to be very good, build quality is high and all parts are readily available.
Not sure what the difference between turf and logs are but I know that properly seasoned wood will produce less ash by large margin.
I burn wood that has been cut and split and dried for at least 2 years and fnd that you will have to burn an awful lot of wood before the ashpan needs cleaning.
I wouldn't get too hung up on stated outputs in real world conditions you will not want the stove to be firing at max heat as the room will quickly heat up.
You will probably only run at 50% most of the time anyway.
Have a look at the stoves and see which you prefer.

Eurorunner

Getting a bit closer to making a decision on this. Have plumber/installer dropping round next week - to determine whether its possible to retrofit boiler.

As regards the stove, I'm now thinking in terms of the Waterford Stanley 'Oisin'. It has similar energy efficiency ratings as the others I was considering (73-77%) - but is coming in much cheaper (€450) - half the price.

Usually its a case of 'you get what you pay for' - but can anyone see what advantage the other two offer in comparison with the Stanley Oisin??

CJhaughey

My Mum has the Oisín, looking at it, it is quite similar to the Squirrel, however the quality of casting is not the same.
I am led to believe that a lot of the new W/S stoves are cast in China and assembled here. Make of that what you will.

Eurorunner

CJhaughey wrote: »

I am led to believe that a lot of the new W/S stoves are cast in China and assembled here. Make of that what you will.

Yes, as far as i'm aware - all of their stuff is coming from out there now - with just a few bolts being adjusted in waterford. My own folks bought a WS range just a few months ago - and they're happy with it. Whether it will last as long as the last one (years and years) ...well, only time will tell.

CJhaughey wrote: »

My Mum has the Oisín, looking at it, it is quite similar to the Squirrel, however the quality of casting is not the same.

Well I suppose there had to be some difference but given they're effectively half the price, i'm still tempted.

badolepuddytat

re: can you trust the manufacturers ratings....

check the test method, there are three, austrian, norwegian and the EN 13240 i think. These are independantly tested in supposedly real world conditions (like NCAP MPG for your car). They probabaly won't reach that all the time of course, but at least you can compare one to another with a very high degree of certainty in the tests.

ednwireland

i got one of these in my front room had it for years great kit
http://www.charnwood.com/country-range-country4.asp cooks me out of a room 15 x 13 ft

also got a stanly jubilee and a wood pellet stove but the charnwood is still the nicest.