Planning permission for outsiders?

preilly79

Quick question: I've read stories about people being refused planning permission to build houses as they haven't lived in the area for a certain number of years or are not considered locals.

What is the legal basis for refusing such refusals? Has anybody ever successfully challenged such rulings based on what would appear to be obvious discrimination?

Cheers!

sydthebeat

preilly79 wrote: »

Quick question: I've read stories about people being refused planning permission to build houses as they haven't lived in the area for a certain number of years or are not considered locals.

What is the legal basis for refusing such refusals? Has anybody ever successfully challenged such rulings based on what would appear to be obvious discrimination?

Cheers!

short answer, no.

Rural housing has to be understood to be a finite resource, and its government policy to restrict rural housing.

However, in some situations a positive presumption can be made to those that show they have a genuine housing need because of circumstances such as applying on family land, long term affilations with an area or a need to be housed because of work. yes, this is positive discrimination, but an understandable and justified one.

Some counties have areas in which population is actually falling, and in these areas they want to encourage settlement. Therefore if you want a country home, i would advise you to find a county with these areas and apply there. Read the county development plans.

muffler

preilly79 wrote: »

Quick question: I've read stories about people being refused planning permission to build houses as they haven't lived in the area for a certain number of years or are not considered locals.

What is the legal basis for refusing such refusals? Has anybody ever successfully challenged such rulings based on what would appear to be obvious discrimination?

Cheers!

Legal issues we dont touch here and there will be no discussion allowed on the legalities or otherwise of this requirement.

I will leave this open for a while to see how it pans out and maybe others may wish to offer advice but dont say you havent been warned.

preilly79

muffler wrote: »

Legal issues we dont touch here and there will be no discussion allowed on the legalities or otherwise of this requirement.

I will leave this open for a while to see how it pans out and maybe others may wish to offer advice but dont say you havent been warned.

is it not permitted to discuss the laws of this land?

sydthebeat

you cant seek legal advice here, and both questions youve asked in your first post can easily be construed as seeking legal advice:

1. What is the legal basis for refusing such refusals?
2. Has anybody ever successfully challenged such rulings based on what would appear to be obvious discrimination?

We can debate the merits of the 'guidelines' with you but i personally do not think theres any debate in it. I am completely in agreement with the 'guidelines' as they protect a rural resource for those who are in most need of it.

preilly79

sydthebeat wrote: »

you cant seek legal advice here, and both questions youve asked in your first post can easily be construed as seeking legal advice:

1. What is the legal basis for refusing such refusals?
2. Has anybody ever successfully challenged such rulings based on what would appear to be obvious discrimination?

We can debate the merits of the 'guidelines' with you but i personally do not think theres any debate in it. I am completely in agreement with the 'guidelines' as they protect a rural resource for those who are in most need of it.

Firstly, thanks for answering my original post, though it does raise a number of other questions. I won't bother asking!

Secondly, I was querying a story that was related to me. You could freely construe my questions as seeking legal advice IF this was a situation I was currently in. Clearly, that is not the case. I was merely looking for a discussion, but if the mods feel the need to close this discussion, so be it

sydthebeat

p,

like many things in ireland, these 'laws' are actually only 'guidelines' for planning authorities. I dont think theres any basis legally for them, whether thats deliberate or not i dont know (im open to be corrected on this)....

Like any guildeline, its ambiguous and very much open to the intrepretation of individual local authorities and even individual planners. Some implement it in full, some in part, some add their own aspects etc.

But as i stated above, personally im in complete agreement with the spirit behind the guidelines.

preilly79

sydthebeat wrote: »

p,

like many things in ireland, these 'laws' are actually only 'guidelines' for planning authorities. I dont think theres any basis legally for them, whether thats deliberate or not i dont know (im open to be corrected on this)....

Like any guildeline, its ambiguous and very much open to the intrepretation of individual local authorities and even individual planners. Some implement it in full, some in part, some add their own aspects etc.

But as i stated above, personally im in complete agreement with the spirit behind the guidelines.

Cheers! having not read the guidelines in their entirety I can't comment with authority on the matter.

I would agree that planning applications for rural areas should be subjected to more in-depth scrutiny in order to maintain the rural 'ethos', if you will. However, as an Irish person, living in Ireland my whole life, and who does not plan on living in a city for the rest of their life, the idea of being refused planning because I have no direct connection with the area just seems a little unfair ... some might say xenophobic

muffler

preilly79 wrote: »

is it not permitted to discuss the laws of this land?

In a word - no.

We are not solicitors and it would not be in our interests or in the interests of boards.ie to allow any legal discussions here. There is a legal discussion forum where people may post but believe it or not you wont get much entertainment on that forum either.

I think sydthebeat has summed up our position - thanks syd.

We dont have a problem with discussing the requirements of development plans etc but we cant and wont go down the road of offering opinion on any of the statutes of the country.

Slig

Drive through Donegal, or even to the top of some of the mountains.
What you'll inevitably find is the picture postcard view spoilt by sparodic blots of yellow and pink bungalows on manicured lawns that have no interaction with the landscape. These are the mistakes of the 70's, 80's and even 90's where houses were built, at the time, for the lowest possible price. These are porly designed rectangles using materials and styles that have no tradition in this country, no astethic properties and unfortunately have a lifespan of 50 or more years. If we are to maintain our countryside then, in my opinion, we have to treat it like a game reserve, you can visit but dont leave your rubbish behind.
Remember that every new house built in rural Ireland is another car (or 2) on poor local roads, more drain on electrical supply and group water schemes, another septic tank or treatment system polluting the groundwater. It is generally encouraged to build in existing villages and towns where there are public sewers and public water supplies, schools, shops and pubs.

Generally I have found that planners will look more favorably on an application if the house is DESIGNED to the site and you can demonstrate that it will add to the area instead of detract from it.

smashey

Slig wrote: »

Drive through Donegal, or even to the top of some of the mountains.
What you'll inevitably find is.....

Paradise.

Syd and muffler summed it up pretty well.

crazy chester

Just wondering if you could help me as im in a similar situation as the op. I have some land that i would like to build a home on (not one to be sold 5 years down the line or to rent out but a place where i intend to spend the majority if not all of my life). The land has been in my family for at least 3 generations and is situated between 2 other houses, my brother lives up the road and i was born and reared for 8 years of my life there(the area not the land), before moving to the town next to this rural community. But i have been informed that if i apply its basically going to be a waste of time as due to the housing regulations of the area i have to be residing within the rural community for at least 12 years and be able to prove it:eek:. More people are telling me to apply anyway? Anyone any advice?

Supertech

Check your local development plan Chester. In my area, you would meet a lot of the criteria for local need, and there are a number of different categories for rural development where the criteria are less stringent. Your own area might be similar. If you read the Rural Housing Section in your local plan it will point you in the right direction.

sydthebeat

crazy chester wrote: »

Just wondering if you could help me as im in a similar situation as the op. I have some land that i would like to build a home on (not one to be sold 5 years down the line or to rent out but a place where i intend to spend the majority if not all of my life). The land has been in my family for at least 3 generations and is situated between 2 other houses, my brother lives up the road and i was born and reared for 8 years of my life there(the area not the land), before moving to the town next to this rural community. But i have been informed that if i apply its basically going to be a waste of time as due to the housing regulations of the area i have to be residing within the rural community for at least 12 years and be able to prove it:eek:. More people are telling me to apply anyway? Anyone any advice?

since
1. the land you want to apply on has been in your familys ownership for 3 generations
2. you obviously have family living close (brother...., cousins? aunts? uncles?)
3. you lived there for 8 years you must have gone to the local school?

I would think you have a good case for meeting the local need requirements.

I would think that that 12 year requirement is more for someone to show that his/her family have created an affiliation with an area.
Your family has 3 generations of an affiliation.

You need to get lots of info:
1. letter from school proving what years you attended between
2. letter from PP or similar proving your 3 generation affiliation
3. land registry details proving length of ownership of lands and by who.
4. map of area showing location of all family in area; numbered, named and relationship to you.
5. letter from any work showing you work locally and dont have a large commute.

Slig

I'm gonna hijack this thread a little because I dont think its worth starting another. (Mods as always move or delete if you dont think its appropriate)

Why do people want to live in a one off house in the country?

Personally, I think I am fortunate to live in a rural village. when I look out my front window there is a green, other houses and civilisation. When I look out the back its empty rolling countryside. There is a pub, shops, a school and a post office within walking distance by footpath with streetlighting. There is Eircom, broadband, a public sewer and will soon be mains water to replace the existing group water scheme.

I grew up in a farmhouse by the sea where our nearest neighbour was a mile away. The journey to school took an hour by bus. If I wanted to stay back late in school somebody had to drive 15 miles into town to collect me. In order for me to get a summer job I had to organise some form of a lift until I was 17 (or take the tractor) which usually meant standing on the side of the road early in the morning or waiting in town until 8 or 9 at night. When I did get a provisional License I had my parents plagued about the car because it was the only way I could get around. When I go home now we dont go out to the pub because its too big a deal to organise lifts etc. All my family has now moved out except my parents as they are running the farm which will be worring in the future as they will be so isolated.
Where I live now I feel more secure knowing there is somebody close at hand to help if i need it. There is still no public transport but having the shop close by means I can walk instead of driving, same with the pub. The local school will be very handy if we ever have a family. I have looked at buying several houses and sites around the area (current house is a semi-d and was only ever temporary until we built or renovated) but I dont think id be happy moving even with the prospect of peace and quiet and extra land around.

This is just my experience but I'd just like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

Quazzie

F**k ya anyways slig. I'm after spending the last year trying to convince myself that turning down a free site on wifes fathers land was a stupid thing to pass on so i'm moving out of the house i have lived in since birth (home place, semi-d, parents moved out years ago) and now after reading your little rant there I'm right back where I started not wanting to move out at all.

P.S apologies for the language and rant but i'm just showing how much I agree with Slig

Slig

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

F**k ya anyways slig. I'm after spending the last year trying to convince myself that turning down a free site on wifes fathers land was a stupid thing to pass on so i'm moving out of the house i have lived in since birth (home place, semi-d, parents moved out years ago) and now after reading your little rant there I'm right back where I started not wanting to move out at all.

P.S apologies for the language and rant but i'm just showing how much I agree with Slig

LOL, If I have annoyed just one peson today Ill sleep better tonight:D

bauderline

I would imagine the opportunity to pick up the type of property in the middle of a rural village that you describe does not come along very often.

For most people the alternative to living in one off housing is one of the many generic housing estates that has popped up in the last number of years. Now some people love living in these places but it ain't my cup of tea...

Lack of privacy in back garden and in general, noisy dogs that bark all night, all manner of muppets knocking on the door trying to flog you stuff, morons turning the small street outside the front door into the indy 500, lack of space inside the house and in the garden, no possibility of garage...

The above is just a few reasons why I haven't lived in a housing estate for over five years....

But I do miss the Anne Summers parties....

Quazzie

bauderline wrote: »

I would imagine the opportunity to pick up the type of property in the middle of a rural village that you describe does not come along very often.

For most people the alternative to living in one off housing is one of the many generic housing estates that has popped up in the last number of years. Now some people love living in these places but it ain't my cup of tea...

Lack of privacy in back garden and in general, noisy dogs that bark all night, all manner of muppets knocking on the door trying to flog you stuff, morons turning the small street outside the front door into the indy 500, lack of space inside the house and in the garden, no possibility of garage...

The above is just a few reasons why I haven't lived in a housing estate for over five years....

But I do miss the Anne Summers parties....

I live in 'rural' Clonbullogue, Offaly and I know off the top of my head of 8 houses fro sale, including my current abode *sniff*. Houses in small villages are prety common

Slig

I realised (while watching the Simpsons) that our housing estate sites in this country are way too small. I think thats the reason people dont like them, I know it certainly is for me. If I had just 30M x 30M as a back garden then I would be perfectly happy. Room to kick about a football, play tennis, park the boat etc. I have a garage but it is at the expense of natural evening light in the garden and it wont fit my car either.
There are too many housing estates where the houses are so tight you cant even fit a car between them and any estates that do have decent sites have monsterous 6 bedroom houses on them.

Poor Uncle Tom

Very true but is that bad planning or bad design? Most developers I have met have used terms like "make em plain - pile em in.." "cheap n cheerfull" "huddle em for heat.." in short the developer wants to squeeze in loads of houses, the maximum number possible and generally the planners accept this.

bauderline

You are not wrong, you would nearly think that it is some sort of mass conspiracy !

Many many of the housing estates built in the last ten years have packed them in like sardines, especially the three and four bed semi d's, they would leave just enough space between the houses to fit a car through, but then a fence goes straight down the middle of that to divide the properties.

The back gardens were invariably hopelessly smal.... all about greed as far as I can see. Why were often as not the same bunch of planners who were imposing strict conditions on rural house design taking the "denis norden" "it'll be alright on the night" approach to large scale housing developments in urban areas ?

It doesn't sit well with me and to be honest I have a fairly poor opinion of planners in most areas....

b.

muffler

Can we get this back on topic again please lads.

crazy chester

Just to add again that a friend of a friend knows a guy that used to be in the planning section of the counsil and even he told my mate that i was basically p**sin in the wind. Should i contact the local T.D? Would there be any other way around it?

muffler

crazy chester wrote: »

Would there be any other way around it?

Just a gentle reminder to people here that we do not allow any discussion on flaunting the planning regs. Read the charter.

bauderline

crazy chester,

I would make an appointment with the planners and put your case to them, have a list of good clear reasons as to why you should be allowed to build there, indicating your ties and long association with the area. You will need to be articulate in getting your message across.

If they give you any indication that they might consider your application your in business.

This is the only way you will get clarity on the matter, this is the route I took and forget chinese whispers.... they are never accurate !

b.

Poor Uncle Tom

Exactly, written homework first please, pays off in the long run, transperency and all that, but please grt your paperwork in order first. big plus.