Black Swimmers

Phil01

First off i want to say this is not a racist post.

The other day my brother and I were talking about swimming, and he mentioned how there was no black swimmers in recent years, and then went onto say it was because they had an extra bone in there body. On refection I realized he was right, i have never seen a black Olympic swimmer, with the exception of Eric Moussambani. But i don't believe its because of an extra bone. On googling some reasons came up as having more bone density.

Has anyone any thoughts on why there are no Black Olympic swimmers? Is it just that they aren't enough who are good enough to qualify? Or is there a anatomic reason?

sock puppet

Well I'm not sure about physical reasons but when you consider the poverty in Africa it makes sense. The most successful swimmers all come from developed countries with good facilities. The only African countries which have ever had been successful in swimming are South Africa and Zimbabwe, the two wealthiest nations on the continent (well not Zimbabwe anymore) and almost all of their swimmers are white.

No human is naturally a good swimmer so it takes years of expensive coaching to make it to the top. Between club fees, galas and going away my parents pay up to 2 grand a year to keep me swimming. Even here a lot of people can't afford it and in my experience the majority of swimmers are all from middle class families. So for that reason I'd say a lot of black people in America wouldn't take it up. Traditionally its also been seen as a bit of a "white sport" but id say thats changed now.

And according to wikipedia your man Eric went sub 57 by 2004 which after 4 years of training is quite impressive. He could be quite close to the qualifying standard by now I'm not sure so i really doubt there's any physical reason why they can't succeed. I think there was some film made about some of the first successful black swimmers somewhere. Forget its name.

Also check out Cullen Jones and Maritza Correia. Jones is a world record holder in the 4x100m freestyle relay and Maritza competed in the 2004 olympics and medaled on the relay team.

Phil01

I understand why people in Africa may not be great swimmers due to money restrictions. But there are lots of African-Americans and other black people from europe who are not stuck in poverty. Why aren't they reaching Olympic standard. As you said Eric has improved alot in 4 years, is he the only person training!!!

Its a shame there isn't more competing at Olympic standard. And i think to say they are build different is complete non-sence.

topper75

Swimming and cycling are the glaring ommissions since Tiger broke golf.

You could ask just the same why whitey can't box or sprint.

Canis Lupus

topper75 wrote: »

You could ask just the same why whitey can't box or sprint.

Or jump. :P

Phil01

topper75 wrote: »

Swimming and cycling are the glaring ommissions since Tiger broke golf.

You could ask just the same why whitey can't box or sprint.

hmm, weirdly i never thought about cycling... I guess that kinda proves it that there is just a lack of black swimmers at olympic standard.

KTRIC

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Or jump. :P

Thats true, white men can't jump :rolleyes:

LadyTBolt

I'm going to regret this after I post it but by posting it I may find out the truth behind it by somebody else.....

A few years ago I asked the same question and I was told that the make up of a black persons bones was different to that of a white person. Apparently the bones were lighter.

Now I honestly don't know or even believe that this could be true as it could have been somebody taking the piss out of me as at times I am quite naive but that is what I was told once upon a time.

Has anybody else ever heard something similar?

Wreck

They were either misinformed or taking the piss

Seamus357

What do you mean Whitey can't box. What about Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano etc.

Also at the moment two of the three top heavyweights are white (and until March of this year all four top heavyweight titles were held by white guys). Ruslan Chagaev (AKA "White Tyson") is the current WBA heavyweight champion and Wladimir Klitschko is current IBF and WBO heavyweight champion. White Eastern Europeans currently dominate heavyweight pro boxing.

As for not jumping, the current high jump olympic champion is a white guy from Sweden (Stefan Holm).

topper75

LadyTBolt wrote: »

I'm going to regret this after I post it but by posting it I may find out the truth behind it by somebody else.....

A few years ago I asked the same question and I was told that the make up of a black persons bones was different to that of a white person. Apparently the bones were lighter.

Now I honestly don't know or even believe that this could be true as it could have been somebody taking the piss out of me as at times I am quite naive but that is what I was told once upon a time.

Has anybody else ever heard something similar?

Haven't heard anything about bones but skin is tougher and harder to graze in boxing. Races are different in much more than skin colour. Nature protects itself with diversification and variety and the human species certainly has that.

Seamus357 wrote: »

What do you mean Whitey can't box. What about Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano etc.

Also at the moment two of the three top heavyweights are white (and until March of this year all four top heavyweight titles were held by white guys). Ruslan Chagaev (AKA "White Tyson") is the current WBA heavyweight champion and Wladimir Klitschko is current IBF and WBO heavyweight champion. White Eastern Europeans currently dominate heavyweight pro boxing.

As for not jumping, the current high jump olympic champion is a white guy from Sweden (Stefan Holm).

Sure there have been some white good boxers - indeed some Irish. There will continue to be a few - but all the exceptions listed above simply prove the rule: Black guys have been dominating the sport of boxing.

Gyalist

I guess that you have never heard of Anthony Nesty from Suriname who won the gold medal in the 100-metre butterfly at the Seoul Olympics.

Money Shot

Seamus357 wrote: »

What do you mean Whitey can't box. What about Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano etc.

Also at the moment two of the three top heavyweights are white (and until March of this year all four top heavyweight titles were held by white guys). Ruslan Chagaev (AKA "White Tyson") is the current WBA heavyweight champion and Wladimir Klitschko is current IBF and WBO heavyweight champion. White Eastern Europeans currently dominate heavyweight pro boxing.

As for not jumping, the current high jump olympic champion is a white guy from Sweden (Stefan Holm).

Totally agree on boxing, not just heavyweights either - Joe Calzaghi, Kelly Pavlik, Ricky Hatton would all feature very highly in the top ten pound for pounders at present. Oh yeah, and Bernard Dunne :rolleyes:

Wasn't Jonathan Edwards dominant in the triple jump for years too..

Mr. Presentable

Dangerous territory. There are, whether PCists like it or not, physical differences between people of different race. Top oriental boxers? There are also cultural differences and socio-economic ones. Bulgarian show jumpers?

According to Richard Prior, his people don't like getting in water, or "going downtown" (euphemism, don't make me spell it out )

Money Shot

nipplenuts wrote: »

Top oriental boxers?
)

Manny Pacquia - probably the best pound for pounder at the moment.

Seamus357

The prevalence of white boxers is not the exception, 7 of the top ten heavyweights are white (of the other three one is Mexican and one is Peurto Rican only one is pure black), and as I said above three of the four main championships titles are held by white men.
I believe that boxing being a tough working class sport reflects the racial and ethic groups that are currently in that social strata (rich kids don’t like getting hit).
In the late nineteenth and early twentieth century the Irish and Italian were up there at the top of the rankings. As the twentieth century rolled on most whites groups emerged from the ghettos and rose up through the social classes. With that there was a corresponding fall off in white participation in boxing. With the fall of the iron curtain and the break up of the USSR a whole new batch of poor(ish) whites emerged on the scene, hence their current dominance.

On a wider note if you think about it most sports are dominated by whites; show jumping, archery, shooting, gymnastics, swimming, tennis, motor sports etc. This may be largely down to social class (and money), blacks (being on average poorer) tend to do well in the more simple sports (where less equipment is needed) like running.

While I believe that social class explains the majority of the racial dominance in sport, I do believe that west african have a genetic advantage in sprinting (and east africans in distance running). Patrick Johnson is the only man not of west african race (he is half Irish and half aboriginal) to run a sub 10 second 100m.

Money Shot

Seamus357 wrote: »

While I believe that social class explains the majority of the racial dominance in sport, I do believe that west african have a genetic advantage in sprinting (and east africans in distance running). Patrick Johnson is the only man not of west african race (he is half Irish and half aboriginal) to run a sub 10 second 100m.

I know Allan Wells won the olympic 10 meters at Moscow - don't know his times, but he is the only white sprinter I can remember doing anything of note.

Seamus357

Allan Wells best for the 100m is 10.11. The fastest white men in history were Armin Hary (10.0) and Paul Nash (10.0).

Our own Paul Hession (PB: 10.18), is currently, probably the fastest white man in the world over 100m.

A recent exception to the rule of all black sprinters is Jeremy Wariner the current olympic and world champion over 400m. Only two men (Michael Johnson and Butch Reynolds) have run faster 400m times.

Wanders_fan

Money Shot wrote: »

Ricky Hatton would all feature very highly in the top ten pound for pounders at present.

Tell that to "The Prettyboy" Floyd "money" mayweather...........:eek:OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!

Wanders_fan

Seamus357 wrote: »

The prevalence of white boxers is not the exception, 7 of the top ten heavyweights are white (of the other three one is Mexican and one is Peurto Rican only one is pure black),

I don't agree with this it is a well known fact that black people are great boxers(Ali,Frazer,Roy Jones,The Sugar Rays)you say 7 of the 10 heavyweights are white.there are 17 weight classes in boxing now i don't no how many champs are white/black but 7 out of what probably 100-120 titles ain't much my friend.

I'm not saying white guys can't box but this arguement is flawed.Look at it this way,There was a time when the top 2 golfers were black(Vijay Singh and Woods),the Best F1 driver now is arguably Hamilton,the best centre in the NBA is chinese and 1 of the best backs in hurling is Fijian however this does not make these races/nationalities any better or more capable to win in their given sports.It just means they have a god given talent and work hard.

As for your late 19th century and early 20th story,yes there where many great white fighters but i mean the black people in the world had more on their mind then championship boxing.slavery in American came to an end in (Approx.)1865.they were hardly gonna stroll in to the ring in the mostly if not totally white sport during a divided and tense time.Move in to the early 20th as the Black people start getting on there feet the world wide recession sets in then its from this generation and their kids we got the Ali's and Frazier's only 100years after escaping slavery.Since the 70/80s for every great white fighter there has been(IMO) at least 2 great black fighters.

P.S. all your comment seems to say is we whiteys are fat Sods.

mjth2004

It's to do with muscle mass - african / maori / pacific islanders for example all have heavy muscle mass therefore making the majority of them heavier/slower in the water to the standard European (training at the same levels of course). But then all you have to do is look at sports that require max explosion in strenght & power this is were heavy muscle mass comes to play!

Mellor

sock puppet wrote: »

And according to wikipedia your man Eric went sub 57 by 2004 which after 4 years of training is quite impressive.

Probably 50m :D

Mellor

People are missing a huge fact, even is there are equal nunmer of black and white boxing champs (they aren't, but if).
That still highlights that blacks are generally better at boxing because there are far far less black people in the world, esp the developed world. This has a huge effect on how good a race or nation is precieved.

BendiBus

One of the swimmers on the record breaking American 4x100 relay team this weekend was black.

PTG

BendiBus wrote: »

One of the swimmers on the record breaking American 4x100 relay team this weekend was black.

Cullen Jones

Mr. Presentable

PTG wrote: »

Cullen Jones

one out of eight.

thirdmantackle

colin jackson blew this myth wide open 2 years ago with a programme about why the sprinting is dominated by black people

and why other sports are dominated by whites

he showed that in the likes of poor countries such as Jamaica, they have a training programme for all schools from 8yrs of age onwards targetted towards producing powerful track athletes - tracks and gyms are all tht is needed.

feck all to do with genetics

Seamus357

Wanders_fan said above that "there are 17 weight classes in boxing now i don't no how many champs are white/black but 7 out of what probably 100-120 titles ain't much my friend."

There are in fact 61 world boxing champions over the four major organizations (WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO) and the 17 weight classes. Of these champions the majority (19) are white men, next up is Hispanic men (17) followed by black men (13) and Asians (11) and one North African. However when you look at the heavier weight divisions then white men dominate.
For men over 11 stone (the average weight for a man), there are 3 times as many white world champions (12) as black champions (4). I'm not saying that white men make better boxers I'm merely stating that fact that white men most definitely can box.

I'm not sure what to make of Wanders_fan P.S. comment "all your comment seems to say is we whiteys are fat Sods."
I can only assume you are saying that heavyweight boxers are fat or something?

On the whole I feel that success in boxing is mostly to do with courage and hard work. It has less to with genetics. It is mainly a working man’s sport. So you would expect blacks to do well in it, as they on average belong to a lower socioeconomic group.

Mellor stated that: "blacks are generally better at boxing because there are far far less black people in the world, esp the developed world. This has a huge effect on how good a race or nation is precieved."

I don't fully understand his point but as regards the numbers he is a little bit off the mark.
According to the United Nations there are more than 900 million people in Africa (versus 700 million in Europe). That’s hardly far far less.

I also have to take issue with thirdmantackle. He says above that "tracks and gyms are all that are needed" to produce world (Jamaica) class sprinters.

This is rubbish I'm afraid. If all that was needed were tracks and gyms then how come the East Germans and Russians didn’t dominate men’s sprinting during the communist era? East Germany failed to produce a single sub-10-sec. 100m runner despite handpicking its most athletic children, nurturing them with the best coaching and pumping them with steroids.
Genetics may not be the most important factor in boxing but they sure as hell are in sprinting. West African’s made up all 56 qualifiers for the finals of the 100 meters in the last seven consecutive Olympics. The best 200 times (all under 10 sec.) are held by runners of West African race. Only 26 men (all west African bar one) have broken 10 sec. for the 100m.
People of West African race tend to be better made for sprinting, on average; they have denser bones, narrower hips and more fast twitch muscle fibers than Whites or Asians.

bill_ashmount

Mellor wrote: »

That still highlights that blacks are generally better at boxing because there are far far less black people in the world

No there isn't.

Phil01

I reckon alot of it now just has to do where the money for national squads go, cuba has great boxers perhaps because more money goes into their boxing development programs, the same with jamaica and its sprinters, they just have better development programs and they get proper support. Alot of the nations where the majority of people are black don't have the same level of development for swimming. There was 1 black swimmer on the American olympic team, but i didn't see how he did outside the relay event.
That's my theory on it now anyways.

walshb

Anthony Nesty was certainly an exception. I don't think physical make up really is that
significant here. I think swimming has for a long time been a wealthy middle class sport and those in Africa did not have the clout to be involved. In America it was a minority sport and came second to so many sports which explains why so few black people were involved. I have no doubt that if black people put their mind to it and decided to take up swimming seriously we would have just as many gold medalists in the pool. They are as a race, part of the human one that is, a very powerful being.

By the way, don't black athletes on average possess greater bone density over their white counterparts?

This means that certain sports that require bursts of power and speed, like sprinting, seem to
favor black athletes more

Boxing is another sport where in general, black athletes perform better. They always
seem physically stronger and are always less prone to cuts

interested

walshb wrote: »

Anthony Nesty was certainly an exception. I don't think physical make up really is that
significant here. I think swimming has for a long time been a wealthy middle class sport and those in Africa did not have the clout to be involved. In America it was a minority sport and came second to so many sports which explains why so few black people were involved. I have no doubt that if black people put their mind to it and decided to take up swimming seriously we would have just as many gold medalists in the pool. They are as a race, part of the human one that is, a very powerful being.

By the way, don't black athletes on average possess greater bone density over their white counterparts?

This means that certain sports that require bursts of power and speed, like sprinting, seem to
favor black athletes more

Joining late but just my opinion:
Personally I think its down to access ... as in the number of swimming pools and swimming clubs available to people ... of all ethnic backgrounds. Give it time and sprint events such as 50 f/s may well be dominated by black swimmers. First medal was at montreal in 76 I think and then south korea.

Out of interest: I was lucky enough to meet Anthony Nesty when making a flying visit to UF when he swam there (pretty sure he coached / coaches there too). Big strong guy and between the flags and the wall he was untouchable ...

tuckermax

its to do with bone density, black swimmers wouldnt float as easy as white people. its the other way around when it comes to black sprinters, they are much better at that because something to do with there muscles. gives them explosive speed.

mikemac

Sprint like ya stole it