Cash Game Profits

Rekop

My first thread so I'll give a quick bit on me.

21 playing live since 18 first tourny came 1st
I play tight agressive, will loosen up in late stages...any two cards dont win, that only works if there's a showdown mate.

I play in a weekly tourny in the fitz (ITM) final table about 40%

I find that somedays you play for 4 hours to your best ability and concentration but either the cards don't hit or the donk plays "cos they're suited" and you bust out with nothing.

All that work for bagel/zero.

So to make a ROI quicker I've decided to play €1/2 limit hold'em in lukes, now both nights I played for under 2 hours and made double my money.

In recap, what sort of profit am I looking for in cash limit games @ 1/2?

Cheers

Rekop-

HIVeindhoven

i'm feeling charitable so heres my 2 cents......GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!

phantom_lord

plz don't try and play live for a living.


guess i should add more since you're a new poster and all. It probably looks like an easy way to make €€€ after the last two nights, but it'll very quickly turn into a grim grind, it is a horrible existence, with horrible hours.

To answer your question, I've no idea what your hourly rate is going to be, whether it's even going to be positive,it'll take months before you have any idea of what it actually is. but the biggest winners probably make about €40-50/ph.

last live thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055280054&

Rekop

phantom_lord wrote: »

plz don't try and play live for a living.

Never said I wanted to.

I love playing, I know I play well and I know there are better players than me. I just want to make a bit of money while enjoying the game.

HIVeindhoven

Rekop wrote: »

Never said I wanted to.

I love playing, I know I play well and I know there are better players than me. I just want to make a bit of money while enjoying the game.

You've missed the boat by a few years i'm afraid.

Rekop

Poor chaps...why all doom and gloom?

If you dont enjoy the game wtf are you doing still playing?

Rb

They have limit at Lukes?

dannydiamond

HIVeindhoven wrote: »

You've missed the boat by a few years i'm afraid.

Insightful stuff there HIV i'm sure this answers all of the ops' questions.

cooker3

Nobody can tell you your winrate. You haven't told us enough info. All we know is you claim to be good (lets face it who doesn't think they are good) and made 40% of final tables. What weekly tournament, what is average numbers. What's your name, maybe some of the fitz regulars who know you may be able to review your game but your going to have to give far more info then you have.

pok3rplaya

37

bohsman

Rb wrote: »

They have limit at Lukes?

Guessing he means pot limit.

DeVore

I believe he is asking what a decent win rate should be over the long term.

DeV.

Rekop

I'll clear up my question.

Is winning double your buy-in at a PLH cash game a good enough return each time you play?

I dont want to play full-time, I'm just wondering if my cash game is doing as good as I think it is at double ROI.

And I know there are losses etc but if somebody kept a constant-ish 2:1 on his money, is that good, or should he just stick it on RED for the same odds lol.

pocketdooz

Rekop wrote: »

I'll clear up my question.

Is winning double your buy-in at a PLH cash game a good enough return each time you play?

I dont want to play full-time, I'm just wondering if my cash game is doing as good as I think it is at double ROI.

And I know there are losses etc but if somebody kept a constant-ish 2:1 on his money, is that good, or should he just stick it on RED for the same odds lol.

Assuming your not joking . . .

Yes, 100% return on investment is obviously a good enough return.

This is highly unlikely to continue mate but the best of luck while it lasts and don't get disheartened when things revert to the norm for you.

H8GHOTI

Yes doubling your buy-in is good.
However, when playing cash you shouldn't think in terms of ROI.
Your hourly rate or profit is what matters because:

Buy-in:€10
Cash-out:€20
Profit: €10
ROI: 100%

Buy-in:€50
Cash-out:€60
Profit: €10
ROI:20%

TommyGunne

Rekop wrote: »

I'll clear up my question.

Is winning double your buy-in at a PLH cash game a good enough return each time you play?

I dont want to play full-time, I'm just wondering if my cash game is doing as good as I think it is at double ROI.

And I know there are losses etc but if somebody kept a constant-ish 2:1 on his money, is that good, or should he just stick it on RED for the same odds lol.

Yeah ROI is the wrong way to think about it. $/hour is better, as it is a more accurate reflection on your edge. Your winrate at the moment is ridiculous, and is completely unsustainable unfortunately. This is not being harsh.

You have played at most 80 hands. This is nothing. You would probably need about 10000 hands minimum before you get an accurate reflection of your winrate. Bear this in mind when projecting how good you are.

It is probably negative for your game though if you constantly think of what €/hour you should be earning. Once you understand how massive the variance is in poker, you will notice that it is so easy to be massively away from your expected winrate over small samples, and even larger ones.

You are probably +EV in live cash games though, I'm not trying to put you down as I obv know nothing about you, but just making some comments!

mdwexford

Rekop wrote: »

I'll clear up my question.

Is winning double your buy-in at a PLH cash game a good enough return each time you play?

I dont want to play full-time, I'm just wondering if my cash game is doing as good as I think it is at double ROI.

And I know there are losses etc but if somebody kept a constant-ish 2:1 on his money, is that good, or should he just stick it on RED for the same odds lol.

Yes.

Its doing super.

Its amazing, you are teh supa playa.

Rekop

mdwexford wrote: »

Yes.

Its doing super.

Its amazing, you are teh supa playa.

I sense sarcasm in the air.

Its obvious I dont know anything about profitable cash games but I have a relative who plays full-time here/vegas so I'll ask for a few lessons

Sabertooth

Its obvious I dont know anything about profitable cash games but I have a relative who plays full-time here/vegas so I'll ask for a few lessons

Sure u do...lol and phil helmuth is my brother

Tar.Aldarion

Rekop wrote: »

I'll clear up my question.

Is winning double your buy-in at a PLH cash game a good enough return each time you play?

I dont want to play full-time, I'm just wondering if my cash game is doing as good as I think it is at double ROI.

And I know there are losses etc but if somebody kept a constant-ish 2:1 on his money, is that good, or should he just stick it on RED for the same odds lol.

No, you usually need about 4:1

DeVore

If I was able to double my stake every night I would be very very happy. Ignore the haters but the truth is that you are probably running hot or simply not being entirely honest with yourself (a lot easier then you might think ).

DeV.

Marq

move up levels.

pocketdooz

Marq wrote: »

move up levels.

Nice answer - I'm sure it helps the OP no end . . .

I'd second what DeVore says above ^^^

. . . hope it keeps good for you but you're probably running hot.

pok3rplaya

Marq wrote: »

move up levels.

I too second this excellent advice and think it is a very nice answer. I am sure it will help the OP no end also.

Rekop

Well you guys are relentless.

The only half decent poster is DeVore.

Thanks for your words and as soon as I run cold i'll come back here for more abuse (bar dev)

Thanks-

tiptap

Rekop wrote: »

Well you guys are relentless.

The only half decent poster is DeVore.

Thanks for your words and as soon as I run cold i'll come back here for more abuse (bar dev)

Thanks-

TommyGunne and Devore are the only ones that have made significant comments here.
The only thing pretty much the NEW op has gotten here is slack.
Just goes to show how sh1te this forum is getting. Rekop, you're probably better off going to another forum, I've pretty much given up on this one.

cooker3

I feel ignored

Lurker1977

tiptap wrote: »

TommyGunne and Devore are the only ones that have made significant comments here.
The only thing pretty much the NEW op has gotten here is slack.
Just goes to show how sh1te this forum is getting. Rekop, you're probably better off going to another forum, I've pretty much given up on this one.

I agree with you and I think your input to this has only been outstanding, your ability to review his BR management was only breathtaking. I am in awe sir.

OP, cooker3 asked some very pertinent questions which you have TOTALLY ignored and now you are giving out because others have taken a sarcastic tone to a question which pretty much reads - How long is a piece of string. IDK but it seems like you are looking for somebody to tell you what you wanrt to hear as opposed to being given advice which you can take on board.

tiptap

Lurker1977 wrote: »

I agree with you and I think your input to this has only been outstanding, your ability to review his BR management was only breathtaking. I am in awe sir.
.

A typical reply .. I expect nothing else at this stage...

I haven't totally ignored anything, I was talking about the MAJORITY of this thread Lurker, where the OP has gotten slack in most of the posts.

Hosef

Hi Rekop, not sure where all the negativity in response to your post is coming from, just ignore it.

my 2 cents...
I can see where you are coming from in relation to variance in tournaments. It is possible to play well consistently and still go for weeks/months on end without cashing.
For this reason cash games can be more attractive as you can aim to be a consistent winner assuming you have an edge (and the standard in cash games in dublin does seem to be quite poor!)

That said, doubling up over 2 hours play is unlikely to be sustainable.

Also, I find Live cash games can be insanely slow seeing about 15/20 hands an hour at times. If you are playing say 25% of hands this can mean less than 10 hands an hour, ergo massive variance in terms of an hourly rate. As an internet player used to ~500 hands/hour multitabling I find this very frustrating.

In a nutshell, given the low hands per hour and the high hourly variance arising from this, you can't really project too much from your experience thus far, but it is extremely unlikely you would be able to maintain a €100/hr return.

Hope this helps

Rekop

Hosef wrote: »

my 2 cents...
I can see where you are coming from in relation to variance in tournaments. It is possible to play well consistently and still go for weeks/months on end without cashing.
For this reason cash games can be more attractive as you can aim to be a consistent winner assuming you have an edge (and the standard in cash games in dublin does seem to be quite poor!)

Hope this helps

Thats what I wanted to hear.

Simply in terms of: effort vs reward seems higher in cash games.

What I like about tournys is, you can run bad for 3 months, win a big tourny which covers all your losses for the previous months, you don't realy find that "security" in cash games.

Q. Can you receive months of losses in cash games and recover only using cash tables? (Just as in tournys)

Hosef

Rekop wrote: »

Q. Can you receive months of losses in cash games and recover only using cash tables? (Just as in tournys)

It's certainly possible. As someone mentioned earlier though, it's very hard to measure your winrate over a small sample of hands and you won't really know if you are a long term losing player or just on a downturn while it is happening.

For example, say we take 10,000 hands as the base volume you would need to really know if you are a long term winning player (not unreasonable). This could be the equivalent of 100 4-hour sessions!

One more word of caution re cash games....It is possible to lose a lot more over a cash session than in a tournament.

In a tournament, your max loss will be your buy-in.
Get aces/kings cracked 4 times in a cash session at 1-2 PLH and you are down €800