Cash Game Shocking!

maloney333

I'm new here but being playing poker round Dublin for a while now in tournaments have had some success, only started playing cash a month or so now, usually in Fitz and having some good sessions but last night was near the Jackpot so pooped in first time in there, and the standard of playing was just shocking! One hand i remember as being just really bad I'm on the button with A10o being 4 callers i pot it player in small blind(seat 2) calls and big blind(seat 3) pots it hasn't played hand in ages so i fold 2 limper's fold small blind calls!

Flop comes down Kh 10s 5s

small blind checks, original rasier pots it and is all in your man thinks for a min then looks at him saying don't think my kickers any good but i call???

Big blind shows his hand AK(spades) for top pair with top kicker and flush draw, asks your man is he ahead and he nods he's head!

The turns a 7c and the rivers 3c small blind says now Ive two pair K's and 3's

Is this the standard of play?


Sorry posted this wrong thread dont no how to move it

Slash/ED

Pretty standard Jackpot hand, yeah.

CHD

standard

This is so funny it hurts.

Let's break down this post, shall we?

1."I found a super soft cash game where I know I am the best player at the table"

2."Here is a typical TPTK hand where I was amazed at how weak the play was"

3."I am going to be UPSET about this"


LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Thank the Lord there is such easy money out there and stop complaining. You'd prefer to spend all your time at tables with players at least at your level or above it?

maloney333

Deleted User wrote: »

This is so funny it hurts.

Let's break down this post, shall we?

1."I found a super soft cash game where I know I am the best player at the table"

2."Here is a typical TPTK hand where I was amazed at how weak the play was"

3."I am going to be UPSET about this"


LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Thank the Lord there is such easy money out there and stop complaining. You'd prefer to spend all your time at tables with players at least at your level or above it?

yeah course i wanta play with people at my level of play whatever that might be, but i do understand your point of easy money!

newbie2

Where exactly in Dublin is the Jackpot?

CHD

montague st i think

pocketdooz

newbie2 wrote: »

Where exactly in Dublin is the Jackpot?

On a little lane in between Harcourt street and Camdon street

Walking up Harcourt street toward the luas stop end, turn right about half way up and it's on that lane there. You'll see it. You need to join across the lane in the Colussus (allegedly - depends on is doormen see you or not) before you can go in.

It's far more laid back than emporium and fitz but can wreck the head sometimes if it's full of twisted poker-pro wannabe college students. (personal opinion I suppose - they must like it . . . )

newbie2

pocketdooz wrote: »

it's full of twisted poker-pro wannabe college students. (personal opinion I suppose - they must like it . . . )

That's all I need to know

TY

Hosef

Had a similar experience in the SE last week.
First time playing cash in Dublin in ages but sat in a Pot Limit 1/2 holdem game after the tournament and the standard was dreadful, basically no fold'em hold'em.

Normal action was call, call, call, call, call, raise, call, call, call, call, call.
Players stacking off with middle pair/bottom pair post flop.

Only problem was that the game was insanely slow. One hand I folded UTG, went down for a smoke, went to the toilets and sat back down on the river in the same hand!

Will defenitely be back for more

Mellor

pretty standard, so standard that it happens to me all the time, last few JP hands

AQ verses A3....A on flop, pot flop, pot all-in on turn, 3 on river
AQ verses K6 ... Pot pf, pot AKx flop, 6 on river,

I fold JJ in the BB to a 3 bet to 60 pf, called by K9, raiser shows QQ,
J on flop,
The jackpot hates me lately

maloney333

maloney333 wrote: »

yeah course i wanta play with people at my level of play whatever that might be

You actually want to play with players against whom you have no edge?

Lurker1977

Deleted User wrote: »

You actually want to play with players against whom you have no edge?

Cos I don't like money imo

Ace2007

Deleted User wrote: »

You actually want to play with players against whom you have no edge?

Surely the best way to improve as a poker player is to play against better players, make money and not learning will only last so long.... losing money and learning and developing your game can only be good in the long term(if you play games your rolled for, otherwise u'll be broke)

Lurker1977

Ace2007 wrote: »

Surely the best way to improve as a poker player is to play against better players, make money and not learning will only last so long.... losing money and learning and developing your game can only be good in the long term(if you play games your rolled for, otherwise u'll be broke)

Why would you want this? The point of playing the game is to make money. Easy money is the best money. As pokerplaya said, I d play 12year olds for their confirmation money if I could find them.

pocketdooz

Lurker1977 wrote: »

Why would you want this? The point of playing the game is to make money. Easy money is the best money. As pokerplaya said, I d play 12year olds for their confirmation money if I could find them.

Play more against players of your calibre or slightly better at low stakes (1/2) and break even / lose = cost of your poker education

Get better as you play more hands/read/post here/talk to others etc.

Move up stakes as you improve - win money at higher stakes (2/4 , 3/6)

= lose small amounts of money improving your game at low stakes, then win (relatively) big amounts of money at higher stakes

I think this is what ACE2007 was getting at

Lurker1977

pocketdooz wrote: »

Play more against players of your calibre or slightly better at low stakes (1/2) and break even / lose = cost of your poker education

Get better as you play more hands/read/post here/talk to other etc.

Move up stakes as you improve - win money at higher stakes (2/4 , 3/6)

= lose small amounts of money improving your game at low stakes, then win (relatively) big amounts of money at higher stakes

I think this is what ACE2007 was getting at

This makes no sense. You have to learn at each level you move up so...

The point is, each time you move up it is because your bank roll is sufficient to allow you to ride out any negative variance, plus you feel prepared to play at that step up in stakes. Not because we feel we are good enough cos we got beaten by the better players in the lower stakes often enough that we think we are capable of playing at a higher level.

Besides, at each table where there is 1 or 2 fish, there will generally be a few better players with whom we will tangle. I personally tend to avoid these players as opposed to search them out as my edge is lower and hence and potential earn from them is less. That being said, if I am a table and I have position on them but they are making life difficult for me then, yes, I will play back.

pocketdooz

Lurker1977 wrote: »

This makes no sense. You have to learn at each level you move up so...

The point is, each time you move up it is because your bank roll is sufficient to allow you to ride out any negative variance, plus you feel prepared to play at that step up in stakes. Not because we feel we are good enough cos we got beaten by the better players in the lower stakes often enough that we think we are capable of playing at a higher level.

Besides, at each table where there is 1 or 2 fish, there will generally be a few better players with whom we will tangle. I personally tend to avoid these players as opposed to search them out as my edge is lower and hence and potential earn from them is less. That being said, if I am a table and I have position on them but they are making life difficult for me then, yes, I will play back.

The point he made wasn't about BR mgt. at all.

It was about improving your game. you won't improve your game as long as you keep playing against all fish or easy money or "12 year olds for their confirmation money"

That was the point he was making and I agree

You're entitled to disagree

Fair play

CHD

hmmmm

what a pointless thread.

newbie2

I think I'll have to agree with Lurker on this. :eek: (I'll never hear the end of it though). It seems that there are two schools of thinking on this thread. One school signs up to the 'play with the best and learn with the best' mentality and the other one is 'play with the worst and take their money'.

I would like to take other peoples money when I play cards so try to avoid good players who may have an edge. If I rustle up a nice big BR and move up levels, I will continue to seek out the donks and take their money. If you don't think there are donks playing HSNL then google deeznuts6.

Learning from the best by playing with them is ok for golf, football etc where playing good competition is good for your game. If you play against Tiger, he's not going to bust you and send you home on the nightlink.

Poker is fundamentally about using your skills to extract as much money as poissible from your opponent. Not taking it up the Khyber and turning around and sayng thank you.

Lurker1977

newbie2 wrote: »

If you don't think there are donks playing HSNL then google deeznuts6.

Probably not a good example imo.

TommyGunne

newbie2 wrote: »

I think I'll have to agree with Lurker on this. :eek: (I'll never hear the end of it though). It seems that there are two schools of thinking on this thread. One school signs up to the 'play with the best and learn with the best' mentality and the other one is 'play with the worst and take their money'.

I would like to take other peoples money when I play cards so try to avoid good players who may have an edge. If I rustle up a nice big BR and move up levels, I will continue to seek out the donks and take their money. If you don't think there are donks playing HSNL then google deeznuts6.

Learning from the best by playing with them is ok for golf, football etc where playing good competition is good for your game. If you play against Tiger, he's not going to bust you and send you home on the nightlink.

Poker is fundamentally about using your skills to extract as much money as poissible from your opponent. Not taking it up the Khyber and turning around and sayng thank you.

.

Very big QFT. People are missing so many points if they say they only want to play good players. Seeking out fish is much better for you than seeking out big games for loads of reasons:

1) Other good players seek out bad players too, so you will find it almost impossible to find a table with exclusively bad players.
2) Game selection is probably the most important poker skill ldo.
3) If you constantly play better players you will go busto. If you just generally seek out good players your BR will stagnate and so you will find it very hard to move up levels. This is the opposite of what you were trying to achieve.
4) Learning how to deal with fish of all different sorts is not a skill you learn playing good players.


On the other hand I usually seek out a really tough game every now and again when I'm bored. I'm fed up of poker at the moment so the only time I've played in the last week is 2 tabling against good regs. Then again I'm very comfortably rolled for my level and nearly rolled for the next one.

maloney333

A lot of good points in the thread i agree with both sides, i play poker because i enjoy it and love the buzz and wanta improve my game all the time i sit at a table but also to make some money obviously! Playing at soft tables can make you some easy money if played right, but since I'm new to cash games I'm trying to not get frustrated at table like this which happen me last night!

TommyGunne

maloney333 wrote: »

A lot of good points in the thread i agree with both sides, i play poker because i enjoy it and love the buzz and wanta improve my game all the time i sit at a table but also to make some money obviously! Playing at soft tables can make you some easy money if played right, but since I'm new to cash games I'm trying to not jump up out of my seat laughing with happiness cos live games are so soft!

FYP

pocketdooz

newbie2 wrote: »

I think I'll have to agree with Lurker on this. :eek: (I'll never hear the end of it though). It seems that there are two schools of thinking on this thread. One school signs up to the 'play with the best and learn with the best' mentality and the other one is 'play with the worst and take their money'.

I would like to take other peoples money when I play cards so try to avoid good players who may have an edge. If I rustle up a nice big BR and move up levels, I will continue to seek out the donks and take their money. If you don't think there are donks playing HSNL then google deeznuts6.

Learning from the best by playing with them is ok for golf, football etc where playing good competition is good for your game. If you play against Tiger, he's not going to bust you and send you home on the nightlink.

Poker is fundamentally about using your skills to extract as much money as poissible from your opponent. Not taking it up the Khyber and turning around and sayng thank you.

Poker is not my primary source of income. I have a job that I worked my boll*x of to get and pays me well. Poker is an activity which I pursue, much like other sports (golf/football) etc. I'm a pretty competitive person and want to improve at said sports - at the moment most of my energy goes into improving my poker game.

I could easily play in home games with mates I grew up with or went to college with etc. and consistently win money. Thats not my aim. My primary aim at the moment with regard to poker is to play better / understand the game better and play well more consistently.

Therefore when rolled properly I play against the opponents who challenge me. I watch how they play - I analyse their play. The consistent winners in the Fitz etc - I keep an eye on them when I'm at their table, I try and understand what they do/why they do it. I ask them roundabout questions to get that information. When playing in big tournaments, I keep an eye on those players that seem to consistently (as far as possible) cash in those tournaments.

I'm not saying that I love to play against the best and get beaten. What I am saying is that I love the challenge of playing against players who can play poker well. It's a challenge.

That's just the way I see things

Ste05

Emmm, I don't know where to put this, one place it shouldn't be is in the Theory forum...

I'll flip a coin between the Main forum and the BBV thread...

And the winner is.... Main Forum...

OK, I'll move it there for a while, cos it might have some benefit.

Ste05

maloney333

pocketdooz wrote: »

Poker is not my primary source of income. I have a job that I worked my boll*x of to get and pays me well. Poker is an activity which I pursue, much like other sports (golf/football) etc. I'm a pretty competitive person and want to improve at said sports - at the moment most of my energy goes into improving my poker game.

I could easily play in home games with mates I grew up with or went to college with etc. and consistently win money. Thats not my aim. My primary aim at the moment with regard to poker is to play better / understand the game better and play well more consistently.

Therefore when rolled properly I play against the opponents who challenge me. I watch how they play - I analyse their play. The consistent winners in the Fitz etc - I keep an eye on them when I'm at their table, I try and understand what they do/why they do it. I ask them roundabout questions to get that information. When playing in big tournaments, I keep an eye on those players that seem to consistently (as far as possible) cash in those tournaments.

I'm not saying that I love to play against the best and get beaten. What I am saying is that I love the challenge of playing against players who can play poker well. It's a challenge.

That's just the way I see things

Well said

maloney333

maloney333 wrote: »

Well said

NONSENSE!!!

Tommy is absolutely right about almost everything (BR management is more important imo than game selection although the two are intrinsically linked in many ways). Improving at poker is almost never done AT the table. It is almost always done AFTER the table, at home or analysing HH's, PT stats etc and altering your thought processes to cope with the game and give you a greater edge.

Playing with better players obviously means when you go home you will have more interesting and difficult hands to think over but it is by going back time and again and adjusting until you become better that you become a winning player.

This is why bankroll manangement is so so so so important and game selection equally so. At EVERY level there are fish. Fact. Finding them and extracting their money is the key to success. At 1/2 live in Ireland the fish WAY outnumber the sharks so playing with "better players" is so pointlessly dim as to be amazing. Occasionally the better players will play a R/E game or organise a 1/2 live 5 game to amuse themselves but guaranteed they still have their fish in the mix to create the value.

Once your bankroll has achieved a sufficient level to take a step up in stakes while being able to withstand negative swings. When your bankroll reaches this level it is usually an indication that you have achieved a standard in your game which allows you to successfully and regularly "beat the game". When you then take the step up you should be at a skill level commensurate with the players around you. Again, careful game selection so as to avoid the players at the brink of moving up to the next level is vital. Clashing with players who have a big edge on you is very much -EV and poker is a game of decisions which begins long before a hand is dealt. This one can be the most vital.

By improving your game at a table with a good fish:reg ratio you can pick on the bad players whilst learning from the way the table plays and the situations you get into, making money all the while.


Cliffnotes: Making a bad decision re Table Selection is the biggest -EV decision you can make on a regular basis.

dannydiamond

newbie2 wrote: »

Poker is fundamentally about using your skills to extract as much money as poissible from your opponent. Not taking it up the Khyber and turning around and sayng thank you.

wp

phantom_lord

Deleted User wrote: »

Cliffnotes: Making a bad decision re Table Selection is the biggest -EV decision you can make on a regular basis.

you're looking at it the wrong way; the op wants maximise his enjoyment/learning experience/the challange he feels, playing in the jackpot is not the most +ev spot in this sense. from a $$$ it's obv the "+ev decision", but he's made it clear that this doesn't interest him.

AdMMM

was near the Jackpot so pooped in first time in there

It takes guts to take a dump in a place like that. Well done.

bops

dublin is full of nits imo

Requiem4adream

Deleted User wrote: »

Improving at poker is almost never done AT the table. It is almost always done AFTER the table, at home or analysing HH's, PT stats etc and altering your thought processes to cope with the game and give you a greater edge.

For me it's the exact opposite but apparently i would argue with the wall so i wouldnt take much credence in it! Subliminal learning & improving your muscle memory is better for me than sitting down analysing HH's and that's achieved through playing.

As for playing better players, a certain degree of it comes down to ego but there is plenty of merit in playing better players with the intention of improving. I'd say last year i was -ev in $100rebuys on stars, i played a lot of them, adapted to certain stylistic differences in the general play and i feel i'm on the right road now to long run +ev in the game. I dont think i could have achieved that without "paying for my education" in them, i wasnt going to learn how to beat $109r by playing $10r. Ego is a factor also, wanting to see if you're good enough to compete with the best, whether that's poker or sports, always more satisfaction from beating tougher opponents or improving against them.

phantom_lord

phantom_lord wrote: »

you're looking at it the wrong way; the op wants maximise his enjoyment/learning experience/the challange he feels, playing in the jackpot is not the most +ev spot in this sense. from a $$$ it's obv the "+ev decision", but he's made it clear that this doesn't interest him.

Although my post does look at live poker as an example, really I am basing it on internet poker.

You never ever have to be at a table where you are the value. You can always put yourself into strong positions to make money even while challenging yourself against better players. Choosing a table where you are the worst player there by choice is just not a good option.

Requiem4adream wrote: »

For me it's the exact opposite but apparently i would argue with the wall so i wouldnt take much credence in it! Subliminal learning & improving your muscle memory is better for me than sitting down analysing HH's and that's achieved through playing.

I actually make the same point as you though perhaps not too clearly. In addition to analysing HH I speak about altering your thought processes. While I prefer to do this away from the table it is undeniable a degree of this goes on while at the table and it is obviously invaluable to the in-game adjustments needed to not get crushed in the early stages of stepping up levels.

Requiem4adream wrote: »

As for playing better players, a certain degree of it comes down to ego but there is plenty of merit in playing better players with the intention of improving. I'd say last year i was -ev in $100rebuys on stars, i played a lot of them, adapted to certain stylistic differences in the general play and i feel i'm on the right road now to long run +ev in the game. I dont think i could have achieved that without "paying for my education" in them, i wasnt going to learn how to beat $109r by playing $10r. Ego is a factor also, wanting to see if you're good enough to compete with the best, whether that's poker or sports, always more satisfaction from beating tougher opponents or improving against them.

The sports metaphor is interesting. You should get better by constantly playing Manchester United. However if you could play Hull every week you could probably win the Premiership. Which is preferable? Beating Hull every week will not prepare you for the step up to the Champion's League but playing Manchester United all the time and you will get relegated back to the Championship. Finding a balance that allows you to be top half of the table and still improve as a team is the optimal choice.

Taking this metaphor to poker, playing consistently and exclusively against better players is much more of a -EV decision than mixing up your play. Short term -EV where you vary your opponents is acceptable for long term +EV as your game improves but doing this in any manner other than by searching out the fish at each level is voluntarily accepting a higher level of -EV than is justifiable.

aya14

chdpoker wrote: »

hmmmm

what a pointless thread.

what does this statement achieve?

TommyGunne

ty for the new sig keith

TommyGunne

TommyGunne wrote: »

ty for the new sig keith

Wp sir. Thank God I stuck in that almost...

Ace2007

pocketdooz wrote: »

Poker is not my primary source of income. I have a job that I worked my boll*x of to get and pays me well. Poker is an activity which I pursue, much like other sports (golf/football) etc. I'm a pretty competitive person and want to improve at said sports - at the moment most of my energy goes into improving my poker game.

I could easily play in home games with mates I grew up with or went to college with etc. and consistently win money. Thats not my aim. My primary aim at the moment with regard to poker is to play better / understand the game better and play well more consistently.

Therefore when rolled properly I play against the opponents who challenge me. I watch how they play - I analyse their play. The consistent winners in the Fitz etc - I keep an eye on them when I'm at their table, I try and understand what they do/why they do it. I ask them roundabout questions to get that information. When playing in big tournaments, I keep an eye on those players that seem to consistently (as far as possible) cash in those tournaments.

I'm not saying that I love to play against the best and get beaten. What I am saying is that I love the challenge of playing against players who can play poker well. It's a challenge.

That's just the way I see things

Only got round to finding this thread,

I think this is the main difference in people's minds, I like you have a job and play poker as a past time, I know my aim(i know some times i do stupid things) is to enjoy my game and try to improve.


Example - i played in the game the Jay organised in Lukes there last friday, its was obvious that i was playing against better players but at the same time i think i did ok, i may have a loss a few quid but i learned alot, sitting on the feeder game in the fitz, you won't learn that much, in essence you'll have a better chance of learning why you lost ur money if playing against good players, than on a feeder game in the fitz, obv i'm not saying do it every nite.

Making money is not be all and end all.

Donal