Photographers Rights

CabanSail

It seems that it is getting more difficult to take photo's in public. A while ago I was threatened by Federal Security guys for daring to take a photo of the Luas. Things seem worse in the UK as THIS article points out. This Video is also interesting.

Ricky91t

I know there was a link posted about irish photographer rights!Try searching for it

Paulw

CabanSail wrote: »

It seems that it is getting more difficult to take photo's in public. A while ago I was threatened by Federal Security guys for daring to take a photo of the Luas.

Things in the UK and US seem to be getting worse and worse. Some crazy stories out there.

Haven't heard of problems in Ireland, so yours is unusual. I must get my camera out and take some picts of the LUAS (from public area) and see what is said.

decsramble

CabanSail wrote: »

It seems that it is getting more difficult to take photo's in public. A while ago I was threatened by Federal Security guys for daring to take a photo of the Luas. Things seem worse in the UK as THIS article points out. This Video is also interesting.

Dont you know photography is a gateway activity into terrorism. You start small, couple of family snaps, then you work up to a entry level DSLR and boom your hooked. Snap this, photo that, gotta beg borrow or steal to fund your lens habit. Then before you realise your addicted you just cant stop yourself from hijacking Luas trams in Dublin and trying to fly them into Westminster Abbey in London. Wont someone think of the children!

CabanSail

You're right. I now see the error of my ways. I was a out at night & using a Tripod without considering the damage it could do to fragile minds. I am a sinner.

City-Exile

You have to be careful using a tripod in a public place.
By right, you can't cause an obstruction.
The Gardaí would be entitled to move you on.

As for Fereral Security, they're not entitled to threaten anyone, ever!

CabanSail

Well Federal Security did threaten me & also would not, when asked, identify themselves. The ONLY thing they had to prove they were Security was their Yellow Jackets with the Federal Security printed on the back. I have an identical jacket in my shed & the printing would take a few minutes.

The reason I was given for not being allowed to take the Photo was that Veolia owned the Copyright to all images of the Luas :eek: I did clear that up later with the head office but it was not pleasant at the time. The ONLY reason I did move is that if they used force I am sure that my Camera Gear would have been damaged in the process.

Duchovny

ricky91t wrote: »

I know there was a link posted about irish photographer rights!Try searching for it

http://www.digitalrights.ie/2006/05/09/photographers-rights/

decsramble

CabanSail wrote: »

You're right. I now see the error of my ways. I was a out at night & using a Tripod without considering the damage it could do to fragile minds. I am a sinner.

A tripod? Dear God I'm pretty sure I saw a tv show in the 80s where a man called MacGyver used one of those and a packet of chewing gum to build a nuclear bomb. Please wait where you are for the Federal Security Agents to arrive.

xshayx

Was approached by security on the dart a few months back, and told you're not allowed to take pics on, of, or from any dart property. I was actually only showing a mate new camera, but it seems next time Italian tourists take pics of themselves on the dart going round killiney seafront they'll be asked to delete!!

Any my experience in the US!! http://www.flickr.com/photos/xshayx/1139437800/

Cabaal

Tell Federal Security to go jump and take the picture all you want, tell them if they ain't happy they can call the Gardai and waste the Gardai's time with such a meaningless thing.

As for the dart, if your on private property they have rights to stop you...public property you can take pictures all you want

decsramble

Actually dont think I'm making total light of the subject. I realise it's serious, just in a joking mood and sometimes you have to laugh at the absurdity of the current world or you'd just go mad

How can Veola own the copyright on the Luas? Are they not just a company hired to run the Luas for a few years as part of a public private partnership. If anyone owns the copyright on the Luas wouldnt it be the Irish Government. It's not like I own the copyright on the books I rent from the library while i'm reading them.

decsramble

We should organise a photo meet on the Luas

When you cleared up the copyright with head office what did they say? It would be useful to know the truth from head office next time a Federal Security boy gets bored and decides to pick on someone.

City-Exile

Thing about this is they hire people to provide security, but there is often a great imbalance between brains & brawn. As a result, you get confrontation, which most civilised people prefer to avoid.

Paulw

Call the Gardai, and report that you're being harassed and intimidated.

Some people need to learn.

Cabaal

Paulw wrote: »

Call the Gardai, and report that you're being harassed and intimidated.

Some people need to learn.

I think its more fun to call their bluff and ask them to call the Gardai :pac:

Fajitas!

I agree with Cabaal. Funnily enough, I've encountered 2 Gardai that didn't know the law either... I don't blame them however, it's a big mess to read through, and isn't usually relevant to their day to day going abouts.

Asking them if they could check the laws before going any further is usually the best way of going about it - In a very nice and civilised manner, but of course.

Heh. No photographs of the GPO at night my arse.

Cabaal

Fajitas! wrote: »

Heh. No photographs of the GPO at night my arse.

rofl, somebody seriously said that to you? :eek:

CabanSail

When I phoned Veolia I was able to talk to someone sensible. She did say that Veolia do NOT have copyright on images of the Luas. She did confirm that if you want to Film or Photograph on the Luas or any of the property contolled be Veolia that you need to apply to get a permit, giving Time & Location for the exercise. The information isHere.

As an aside. I also read the Bye Laws of the Luas & found out that it forbidden to use Audio Devices in such a way as to be heard by other passengers. Funny I have never seen their Customer Service Officer or Security ask someone to turn down their annoying MP3 player.

While I was in dispute with the Security & Customer Service Officers there were two Gardai walking past. I asked them to assist me to get the Security guys to identify themselves & was told to "F%$^ Off & not waste their time" So much for the Guardians of the Peace.

Fajitas!

rofl, somebody seriously said that to you?

A Garda.

Duchovny

CabanSail wrote: »

When I phoned Veolia I was able to talk to someone sensible. She did say that Veolia do NOT have copyright on images of the Luas. She did confirm that if you want to Film or Photograph on the Luas or any of the property contolled be Veolia that you need to apply to get a permit, giving Time & Location for the exercise. The information isHere.

As an aside. I also read the Bye Laws of the Luas & found out that it forbidden to use Audio Devices in such a way as to be heard by other passengers. Funny I have never seen their Customer Service Officer or Security ask someone to turn down their annoying MP3 player.

While I was in dispute with the Security & Customer Service Officers there were two Gardai walking past. I asked them to assist me to get the Security guys to identify themselves & was told to "F%$^ Off & not waste their time" So much for the Guardians of the Peace.

Well by the Irish law they still can't forbid you to take pictures of the luas on the streets, unless you were in their warehouse or something :P

decsramble

Fajitas! wrote: »

A Garda.

Considering some of them have a hard enough time enforcing existing laws you think they wouldnt be inventing new ones just to annoy people.

Cabaal

Duchovny wrote: »

Well by the Irish law they still can't forbid you to take pictures of the luas on the streets, unless you were in their warehouse or something :P

Agreed, unless the Luas is on private property and your on that property they can't stop you from taking any photos of it as long as your on public property

I remember reading a definition of private property in irish law before and as far as I know public transport is not private property, therefore it is legal to take photos from the dart or the luas.Just tell them you're in a public area and it is legal to take a photo of anything from a public area.

Fionn

I'm going to the aforementioned police state soon so i've done some research and this link seems like a good start!
I may pack a copy of the Patriot Act too just in case
Oh and it's handy to have a phone number for a lawyer in the area you'r going to

Phototoxin

While I was in dispute with the Security & Customer Service Officers there were two Gardai walking past. I asked them to assist me to get the Security guys to identify themselves & was told to "F%$^ Off & not waste their time" So much for the Guardians of the Peace.

I'd've taken an Gardais number and reported him. your taxes pay for his job so if he's not goign to help He can **** off /rant :mad:

monument

The LIGHT RAILWAY (REGULATION OF TRAVEL AND USE) BYE-LAWS 2004 which covers the Luas is far less restrictive then Veolia, it says:

9 (1) A person shall not on a light rail vehicle or a light railway without permission given by or on behalf of an operator - ...
(f) use any camera or video recorder or any form of equipment for recording sound or images so as to interfere with any other person,

Meanwhile - as posted on this board before - CIE's bye-laws state:

23. (1) No person while upon the railway or in any vehicle shall to the annoyance of any other person or if requested not to do so by an authorised person, sing, perform on any musical or other instrument or use any gramophone, record player, tape recorder or portable wireless or television apparatus.

decsramble wrote: »

We should organise a photo meet on the Luas .

Name a date and time.

CabanSail

I was looking for the Bye Laws on the Luas website, but they seem to have been removed.

Thanks for the link.

If there is a Luas Photo Expedition, then someone should have a copy of those Bye Laws with them.

Duchovny

Well the point is, the Luas can have the laws as they want, but that can't differ from the Irish law they even can say you can't take a picture of the Luas but if in the Irish law say you can, its because you can and no matter what they do they can't say anything, as far as you are not in their property.

There laws are good in their own space (private) and not on the streets.

CabanSail

Duchovny wrote: »

Well the point is, the Luas can have the laws as they want, but that can't differ from the Irish law they even can say you can't take a picture of the Luas but if in the Irish law say you can, its because you can and no matter what they do they can't say anything, as far as you are not in their property.

There laws are good in their own space (private) and not on the streets.

I must point out that there is no policy of Veolia that says you can't take Photographs of the Luas. That was just something that was made up by their Customer Support Officer & the Federal Security when I questioned their reasons for stopping me taking my Photograph.

I will dig out the images I did take & post them.

sprinkles

Lol, the federal heroes is class.

They have absolutely no power on public property. Go back down with a point and shoot (less chance of damage in a tussle) and take a few shots/videos and make a stand, refuse to move if they come over and request they call the gardai. If they touch you then you call the gardai.

And as for the Gardai, I would agree with monument. They are being paid to provide a service to the public. F**k off is hardly a response taught at Garda training. Useless fookers.

thebaz

ive encountered many issues with all forms of security through the year

have deleted photos on request , some i would prefer to have kept it can be daunting ; but if my intent is morally positive , i will persist

Masada

Ive taken loads of photo's of the luas myself, havent had any probs though but i know what would be happening if one of those chumps make any threats to me for taking a photo.,
Imagine what it would be like if 20 or 30 people turn upto take photos at the same time., hehee.,

Duchovny

thebaz wrote: »

ive encountered many issues with all forms of security through the year

have deleted photos on request , some i would prefer to have kept it can be daunting ; but if my intent is morally positive , i will persist

If is public photos you don't have to delete them... Anyway if you have a film camera they could never ask you to delete them



I do think would be great all os us going all together to take pictures of the luas!!!

monument

I wouldn't be so quick to say that the same rules apply on Luas stops, track, and trams as normal streets etc. The bye-laws are additional rules. At this point I'd also like to point out that I am not a lawyer and nothing I say here should be seen as legal advice.

I would, however, take note of the following elements in the "Restricted behaviour" section of the Light Railways Bye-laws:

6. (1) A person shall not on a light rail vehicle or a light railway without permission given by or on behalf of an operator -
.....

(i) loiter or remain on a light railway without reasonable and sufficient cause,

(j) conduct or take part in any public meeting or demonstration.

(2) An authorised person may seize and detain for a reasonable period or until the conclusion or any relevant court proceedings any object used in contravention of this Bye-law.

But I can't see anything there that would for example stop you from using the Luas from A to B as a group or not and taking photos inside the tram and at the stops along the way.

sprinkles wrote: »

And as for the Gardai, I would agree with monument. They are being paid to provide a service to the public. F**k off is hardly a response taught at Garda training. Useless fookers.

I haven't said anything about the Gardai in this thread yet.

But it's very unfortunate if, like the OP said, a Garda told him to "**** off" and not to waste their time. I would have tried to taken their badge number and reported them. The last thing the force needs is more and more people losing fate in them.

I'm not trying to excuse the Garda in question, but it's highly likely that they might have thought the OP was a fare evader who was giving the ticket inspectors some trouble, and also they probably don't have a clue of the bye-laws and might have in any case believed the Luas employees rather then you.

Fajitas!

I'd also just like to point out... If you are going to/do arrange a meetup on the Luas, get confirmation from head office beforehand...

And really think why you're going to do it... Is it to get some great photos... Or just to piss off some security guards and annoy the general public? If it has anything to do with either of those reasons... stand back and have a good look at what you're doing.

monument

Fajitas! wrote: »

I'd also just like to point out... If you are going to/do arrange a meetup on the Luas, get confirmation from head office beforehand...

And really think why you're going to do it... Is it to get some great photos... Or just to piss off some security guards and annoy the general public? If it has anything to do with either of those reasons... stand back and have a good look at what you're doing.

Good point.

If it's to get photos and feel you won't be intimidated by customer service staff (ie the ticket inspectors) and security, that's one thing. But if there a group going to annoy them in one way or another I'd stay at home.

AnCatDubh

Fajitas! wrote: »

I'd also just like to point out... If you are going to/do arrange a meetup on the Luas, get confirmation from head office beforehand...

And really think why you're going to do it... Is it to get some great photos... Or just to piss off some security guards and annoy the general public? If it has anything to do with either of those reasons... stand back and have a good look at what you're doing.

Absolutely agree -better to do with consent rather than being in the right yet hassled without.

I actually think the line of the LUAS has a wonderful photographic story to tell - on a theme of 23 stops (red line). Maybe Veolia would sponsor a resulting publication :cool:

CabanSail

monument wrote: »

I'm not trying to excuse the Garda in question, but it's highly likely that they might have thought the OP was a fare evader who was giving the ticket inspectors some trouble, and also they probably don't have a clue of the bye-laws and might have in any case believed the Luas employees rather then you.

As said earlier, I was in dispute with these guys & two Garda were walking past. I asked them to intervene & got abuse for my effort. As far as I recall, what he said was "This is Dublin so why don't you F^&% Off & stop wasting our time. If you continue to do so it's you that I will arrest" & then they left. In hindsight I should have taken his number so I could recommend him for a Community Service Medal. I do admit that my regard for the Gardai did fall quite a lot after that incident.

I have had some really good contact with other members of the Gardai recently which makes you realise that there are good & bad. I was in contact with the Garda Technical Division to arrange a talk. We have a Forensic Photographer coming to give us a talk at the Dublin Camera Club soon. It's a subject that interests me, so I guess it will other people too. Maybe I should put that up in another thread though?

sprinkles

sprinkles wrote: »

Lol, the federal heroes is class.

They have absolutely no power on public property. Go back down with a point and shoot (less chance of damage in a tussle) and take a few shots/videos and make a stand, refuse to move if they come over and request they call the gardai. If they touch you then you call the gardai.

And as for the Gardai, I would agree with monument. They are being paid to provide a service to the public. F**k off is hardly a response taught at Garda training. Useless fookers.

Sorry Monument, meant Phototoxin

Phototoxin

And as for the Gardai, I would agree with monument. They are being paid to provide a service to the public. F**k off is hardly a response taught at Garda training. Useless fookers.

twas moi.

I dont have much respect for gardai that are like that. Gardai that are helpful yes. A$$hats no