self defense for over 60's?

Sonic Sarah

Hi
Does anyone know if there are any self defense classes specifically for older people. My mum, who is over 60 would like to take up classes but would like to go to a class where there are people of around the same age. Does anyone know if there are any suitable classes out there? She lives in Ballinteer, Dublin south so ideally if there is a course nearby that would be great.

Baggio...

Hi S.S.,

I don't know anyone here that actually specializes in teaching guys who are getting on a bit. But self-protection is definitely your best bet. While people are at a physical disadvantage in their later years it doesn't mean they can't defend themselves. It's all about having the mindset to do whatever it takes to win.

I posted an article here some time ago about a women in her fifties who successfully fended off an attack while she was praying in a church. She repeatedly stabbed the guy in the neck with a pen! While the pen did not actually do that much damage the guy panicked and bolted, as he was not expecting any resistance. Something similar happened to the infamous Boston strangler. The only woman that actually survived was the one who put up a fight. She bit him on the hand! and he ran off, again in a panic. Not forgetting to mention that he was an ex-marine and a boxer. I can't say these tactics like this will work every time, unfortunately there are no guarantees.

Women virtually never end up in a "toe to toe" situation, so their tactics have to reflect this.

If you're interested I can drop you a PM of recomend books that are specially geared to show concepts of "counter violence" for women. These could also be applicable for someone who was smaller or older, etc.

Cheers,

R.

Sonic Sarah

Hey Baggio
What's self protection? Is that like Krav Maga? If you could recommend some books that would be great, I'd just like her to feel more confident, she had a bit of a bad experience with a group of teenagers recently and I know she feels a bit vulnerable because of it. It makes me really angry that there's little scumbags out there who think it's funny to intimidate elderly people.
Thanks for your help.

Pride Fighter

There is a club in St. Columba's college (Kenpo) who train Wednesdays and Saturdays. Thats just beside Marlay Park.

FruitLover

Sonic Sarah wrote: »

My mum, who is over 60 would like to take up classes but would like to go to a class where there are people of around the same age.

She's not likely to ever be attacked by other people over 60. If she's serious about learning self-defence, then it would make more sense for her to get used to training (and preferably sparring) with people younger and stronger than her, as this is who she'll be more likely to have to defend herself against.

Baggio...

FruitLover wrote: »

If she's serious about learning self-defence, then it would make more sense for her to get used to training (and preferably sparring) with people younger and stronger than her, as this is who she'll be more likely to have to defend herself against.

Hello S.S.,

Theres some good advise for you not to follow. Can't see your 60 old Mum getting into a ring with a load of youg 'uns.

The main deference between "self-defence" and "self-protection" is basically this.

SD concentrates on the actual event (or altercation), where as SP is more concerned, although not limited to, what happens before the event. Thus giving you a much better chance to avoid a conflict in the first place. It's basically having a set "game plan" or active strategy which is based around awareness. However, it also addresses the other phases of the conflict.

Pre-Conflict (Some of the strategy's, as I've already mentioned).
Conflict (various physical options should you be unable to avoid or escape).
Post-Conflict (what can occur after the event).

It's not related to Krav Maga at all. However, some of the Krav Maga instructors are now using self-protection principles (basically a taking an influence from SP).

I'll look at my books tonight, and send you a reading list.

Hope it helps,

R.

Nothingcompares

To read in between the lines, a group of knacker teenagers harassed your mother in some way and she's shaken from the experience? Is this a regular occurrence or a once off? There's no easy way to repair this kind of mild psychological damage and I certainly don't believe martial art classes (or any of its aliases) will give a quick fix.

Baggio...

Nothingcompares wrote: »

martial art classes (or any of its aliases) will give a quick fix.

very true...

However, that's not necessarily the question thats being asked here.

Black Swan

Take Tai Chi for physical fitness and train a Great Dane for SD?

Baggio...

hello again,

I honestly think that training for the over sixties is very limited, especially if they are new to it and are generally of a nervous disposition (fear is a good thing by the way).

What I would say is the best option by far, is concentrating on the "pre-conflict" stages of any possible altercation. Using you're awareness, instincts and common sense to "just not be there". Well, that's in a perfect world - unfortunately we still can't predict a street thugs movement.

I've pm'd you a couple of really good books, which I think would suit your mother.

Hope they help.

Cheers,

R.

pearsquasher

Sonic sarah....

Have a good read of this website....http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ yourself and print out the relevant pieces for your mother. It's all about pre-conflict pyschology and "not being there" and is probably better than any short term course which I wouldn't recommend at all.

For long term self-defence training .... in my opinion the only way to go for actual physical self-protection.. I recommend Bujinkan www.bujinkan.ie, which is perfectly suited to elderly people as it makes the most of the attributes you have and doesn't ask you to do anything you're not able for. I've trained in Bujinkan clubs with over 50's ladies and over 60's gents. I'd be very happy to have elderly people in my class (I do have a 47 year old who thought he was "getting on" but is saying he's getting a big hit from studying twice a week with me)

Long term training will strengthen the spirit too - all important when dealing with bullies and yobs.

Scramble

Thinking about the original question I consider my own mother, who is getting on in years herself. She lives alone and I'm some distance away. Although we have other family in the area and she is a safe locality the reality is that stuff can still happen.

Assuming she was interesting and willing to take steps to be safer then I think hands-on training would be pretty far down my list of priorities (as it would be for pretty much anyone who is interested in being less likely to become a victim of crime). Reallistically she is in a vulernable bracket in terms of her gender, age and physical capabilities. Hands-on training might improve her chances to some extent but I think a better way of approaching the problem would be to try 'target hardening' and look at ways to reduce the likelihood of her being in that position.

How secure is her home?

Is it alarmed? In my experience an effective alarm is a deterrent. The vast majority of the homeowners I have dealt with at work who have been the victims of burglary or intrusion did not have alarms. Taking it a notch further there is the possibility of installing a panic alarm, which again in my experience can be extremely effective.

I would also look at small things like whether she locks her doors when she is at home by herself. Again from work I have seen situations where 'passing trade' ventures into people's hallways and living areas if the door is open. Pure opportunism.

I think dogs are also worthy of a special mention. A reasonable-sized dog is also an excellent deterrent and if it is the right type then it could potentially also be an asset in terms of her physical safety. My mum has had dogs in the past, but not for years. Although it would be a burden on her in terms of looking after it I wouldn't mind seeing her have one again (no luck convincing her yet).

In terms of hands-on self defence for an older person then I think 99% of what is out there is complete crap. I'm going to paraphrase CrossFit and argue that the needs of younger people and older people in terms of what works in training do not differ in kind, only in degree. The reality is that whatever you are going to depend on still needs to be trained in an 'alive' fashion (to resurrect a much-overused word I haven't seen in a while). It's a bit awkward that this is the case, being that, say, Auntie Joan is arthritic and only weighs 55kg but equally we'd be doing everyone a disservice if we pretended otherwise. I'm far from suggesting that everyone irrespective of their age should train to be a complete fighter, but what I'm saying is that whatever hands-on training is done will still have to be pretty vigorous despite the weaknesses of the people involved if it is to be anything other than just a farce.

I think most people of that age are probably not inclined to take on the type of lifestyle change which serious continuous training would require, so that has to be taken into account. The OP's situation is unusual in that there's obviously a bit of enthusiasm there. For most people, though, I'm not exactly sure what would be the best compromise. Were this another country I think the reality is that a firearm is an excellent equalisier but for a majority of people here that is no feasible either (and arguably requires a lot of training as well, albeit of a less physical nature).

In terms of what consitutes acceptable levels of force in defending themselves an older person will receive a lot more leeway, that's worth considering. Things like having a big maglite torch in the house and in the car could be useful. In conjuncton with a dog, good security, watchful neighbours and possibly a panic alarm I think that's about as good as it gets.

t-ha

Other than the obviously dangerous situations to avoid, I really don't buy this 'not being there' mentality. If an older lady goes to the shops and there are kids hanging around outside and they harass her, what was she meant to do? Walk to another shop as soon as she saw them?

There is basically nothing for most teenagers to do except hang out somewhere, so odds are you're going to come across groups of them every now and then, and teenagers being the way they are will probably harass some of the people that pass by them to varying degrees.

I'd say (making assumptions here but...) she probably just feels so vulnerable because she's a bit older than she used to be and not as sure of herself physically. I'd recommend she takes up training or a sport - you could PM Transform who is a personal trainer that has worked with older clients before. A bit of added strength and fitness would probably make her feel alot better (and also helps prevent osteoporosis!) and it's a much more mentally positive step than dwelling over strategies to offset every kind of vile physical assault that could ever occur to someone.

Baggio...

pearsquasher wrote: »

For long term self-defence training .... in my opinion the only way to go for actual physical self-protection.. I recommend Bujinkan

Why Bujinkan? Or am I thinking of another art?
traditional type of training, fine motor skills, Kata, grades, belts, etc.

How long do you think anyone would need to train in Bujinkan before they would have a decent shot at defending themselves?

Baggio...

IF you had to teach someone with no experience surly it would be far better showing them a few simple but effective hard skills, and how to apply them under a bit of pressure. Basically getting the person inoculated to a bit of stress so that it would increase their chances of not freezing up (there are no guarantees here by the way).

I still think the time would be better spent on teaching people to use their awareness and instincts. So, how to avoid a conflict in the first place. But there should always be a back up of hard skills - just in case...

Why would a lady in her sixties spend years and years of learning something traditional? It just makes no sense to me.

Roper

My mother carries a stern look with her almost everywhere that's been know to stop a man dead in his tracks.

I'm not sure any of the reccomendations above are relevant bar maybe Scramble's post, and it might be worth pointing out that Scramble is among criminals and scumbags for a living. I would also fundamentally disagree with Baggio's assertion that "fear is a good thing", especially for older people who should be out enjoying their retirement instead of watching their backs for the next attack.

Unfortunately the little scumbags you are on about are everywhere, and you also have to remember that most of them aren't really scum, they're just bored kids trying to look tough in front of their mates, pack mentality. Usually someone putting the sh1ts up them clears them off, be that the cops or a neighbour. There was bunch of lads annoying my neighbour a year or so back (she lives alone) and after a bit of a scare from the gardaí they now say hello to her instead. Most of them just grow out of it. It can be very scarey though for older people, especially if they feel alone and vulnerable. Ireland doesn't really do "communities" anymore, but years ago older people in my estate were people you knew and who you said hello to, met in the local shop etc. Now people who live two doors down from each other don't know one another and peole feel isolated.

Baggio...

Roper wrote: »

fear is a good thing", especially for older people who should be out enjoying their retirement instead of watching their backs for the next attack.

Fear is a natural asset and we have it for a reason. That doesn't mean you wander around being terrified.

I don't think you've grasped exactly what I'm getting at. That's why I've PM'd S.S. a reading list.

Here's a book you should look at Roper, might bring it more into focus for you. Incidentally, he's not a martial artist of any kind.

"The Gift of Fear" - By Gavin Becker.

Burnt

Despite having spent 3 day training this week with a 60 year old who at 5'2"
and ~60kg who would hand me my ass; I would be dubious about the relative
gains of training in terms of realistic self defense for and older person. It would
proabily be good for confidence and general health, but not for taking on aload
of sh1t heads.

I would suggest carring a nice heavy stick, with the intent of using it or perhaps
a dog.

Sonic Sarah

Thanks a mill everyone for all your helpful advice. I think the dog is a great idea hopefully she'll go for it. I know she loves dogs but I'm not sure if she'll want to look after one, she has a very active social life and might not want to be tied down. She's quite active but said she'd like to be fitter so I think she suggested learning self defence for a few reasons 1. to feel more confident 2. to get fit and 3. just to learn something new (she loves doing courses) So maybe a bit of Tai Chi or something combined with some good self protection books (recommended by Baggio) will help her feel more confident.

Nothingcompares

Sonic Sarah wrote: »

Thanks a mill everyone for all your helpful advice. I think the dog is a great idea hopefully she'll go for it. I know she loves dogs but I'm not sure if she'll want to look after one, she has a very active social life and might not want to be tied down. She's quite active but said she'd like to be fitter so I think she suggested learning self defence for a few reasons 1. to feel more confident 2. to get fit and 3. just to learn something new (she loves doing courses) So maybe a bit of Tai Chi or something combined with some good self protection books (recommended by Baggio) will help her feel more confident.

sounds good, the best of luck to her.