Hills killing me

lukester

I've started getting out for slightly longer spins lately, around the 40k mark, and have included a few hills. I've been commuting for a good few years, and on the flat I'm grand and can easily pull away from my mate who's training for a triathlon. On the hills though, at a certain point he just pulls away and leaves me for dead.

I'm guessing this is down to aerobic fitness. Just wondering is the best training for this to keep doing the same kinds of hill, but trying to do them faster. Or should I be trying to tackle them in a harder gear eventually? (Right now I'm on the granny ring going up the steepest part).

Finally, how do the couple of hills on this route rate in terms of difficulty? (The windy one at the start that goes up to a little stone bridge is the one that gets me). I feel kinda proud that I can even get up the things, and my time has been dropping gradually week by week. I know this is small change in the grand scheme of things, but it's a start.

My motivation in all this is partly to kick my mate's ass Meh, that will probably never happen, but I'm definitely getting the bug, would like to aspire to something more substantial, maybe even the Wicklow 200 next year.

tunney

Not just fitness but weight too. Are you heavier than him?

Caroline_ie

I know Non cyclist ... but very very lighweight people who go up hills for the 1st time with No difficulty whatoever ... and I am left behind. I love hills ( Once I am on the other side ), I am just not super lightweight enough for them ( just yet) ... so training and training ...

stuf

Not that I have any experience of proper hills but on any slope there is a balance to be reached between the gear and cadence - using such a light gear that you don't make any progress means that you'll expend a lot more energy than necessary getting up there

at the end of the day it's about finding the right gear for you and a particular slope given your weight, leg strength and aerobic fitness

TinyExplosions

Climb, Descend, Repeat. Over and Over and Over and Over... there's no easy way, just practise (I know from experience... the second time up a hill is easier -and I'm a crap climber)

It always hurts, just hurts for a shorter time

Chips Lovell

lukester wrote: »

On the hills though, at a certain point he just pulls away and leaves me for dead. I'm guessing this is down to aerobic fitness.

Tunney's right. It's fitness and weight.

lukester wrote: »

Just wondering is the best training for this to keep doing the same kinds of hill, but trying to do them faster. Or should I be trying to tackle them in a harder gear eventually? (Right now I'm on the granny ring going up the steepest part).

Hill repeats. Up and down until yout get better.

lukester wrote: »

Finally, how do the couple of hills on this route rate in terms of difficulty? (The windy one at the start that goes up to a little stone bridge is the one that gets me).

I know that road well. It's a hard climb up to the bridge alright.

blorg

It's fitness and weight but also I think gearing and pacing. For shorter hills I'll power up and hopefully get to the top before I explode but for longer ones it's more about gearing down and getting into a steady rhythm, watching my heart rate and trying to keep it at 90% or below.

I am guessing from your post that give it all at the start of the climb and run out at some point, and it's after you "run out" your mate passes you. The key to avoiding this finding a pace you can sustain up the entire climb (this will not guarantee your mate won't pass you mind, indeed he could do at the start rather than halfway up, but it should get you up a long climb quicker overall.)

The key variables you can control here are gearing and cadence. An output variable you can monitor is heart rate.

Apart from that, practice (and lose weight if possible/appropriate.)

I know that climb well myself, it's a steep one and you would need to pace yourself.

Quigs Snr

Hills are all about power to weight ratio's, so weight matters, strength matters (and aerobic fitness matters too, to fuel the muscles), technique is also important, but I have been thrashed by riders 4 stone heavier than me, although in my defence they were A riders, so their power to weight ratio would still be good. The only way to get better on hills is to ride more hills. A lot of people spin very light gears using triples etc... and thats great, it will get you up the hill but won't make you stronger.

Try doing a few hill repeats. Find a hill and do it a few times with a little rest in between, go up in a harder gear than usual (slightly harder), and don't make the rookie mistake of attacking the bottom, blowing up and crawling over the top. Focus on your breathing, having a HR monitor helps, as blorg says keep it at or below 90%, keeping your pedal cadence as steady as you can and your upper body loose and relaxed. You will eventually improve doing this, slowly. When the gear gets too easy make it one harder etc...

Apart from that, just put in the miles and you'll get there. If you are doing 40k rides, that isn't all that far in the greater scheme of things so you won't be too strong yet which means that the good news is you have a lot of room to make huge improvements if you stick to it, you are only starting out after all so you will not have the strength in your legs yet.

DirkVoodoo

I've found that knowing a route helps too. If you are cycling places you aren't familiar with, you tend to use up energy at non-critical parts of the climb. The first time I went up the sally gap compared to the last time was noticeably harder, mainly because I was fitter but also because I knew when to turn on the power and when to just sit back and spin.

Practice, practice, practice.

kenmc

Yeah there's definitely a psychological aspect to it too, if you don't know a climb there's the 'how long more do I have to go' thing going on in your head, whereas if you've been over a climb before you know where the top is, and each and every pedal spin gets you closer to it. I found that on Slieve Maan on the W200 - it was the only one I'd not been over before, and I was dying on it. Once over it I knew the roads and I was invincible, even on some reasonable climbs like ballinastoe or around roundwood.

FrankGrimes

I'm no serious cyclist so take my advice with a pinch of salt, but I'm quite heavy (98KG) but have quite large solid thighs (~27") so I reckon my power to weight ratio is reasonable. I can generally drop most non-hardcore cyclists on flat (or even slight gradients I call 'pulls' which seem to be my strongpoint) and I can power up short steep hills no problem.

Longer climbs of a medium grade or above are a different story though - as I don't do them all that often I generally take the approach that most people who aren't serious cyclists would have 'fair play to me if I make it up this hill no matter how long it takes'. Once I manage to do it by hook or by crook, I'll then record my time and try to beat it - the key to this is to have several split points along the way so that you know how you're progressing as it really motivates you to push harder when you know you're behind.

I totally agree with the suggestion to climb, descend and do it again. My nemesis has always been the climb to the viewpoint at Cruagh beyond the Hell Fire Club - I start at the Woodstown roundabout in Firhouse and see how far I can get without taking a breather - for my standards that's one serious climb. I used to cycle a Raleigh Vitesse racer years ago (fond memories of that loyal servant) and it was a Double chainset so even at the height of my boxing fitness, getting up that climb was still a struggle. Now I have a decent road bike (Giant SCR 2.0) and it's a triple and I made it in under 16 minutes my first time back on it, though that includes 2 x 15 second breathers. When I did a 120km route as part of the Wicklow 200, that same approach worked for me - push it hard as I can, take a literally 10 second breather to get the breath back and loosen the legs, and jump straight back on. Isn't glamourous but it definitely got me up faster than taking it at a slower pace with no break.

Surprised nobody has asked about your climbing style. I generally stay in the saddle mostly but like to get out of it from time to time as it breaks the mental monotony and I feel it works different muscles giving the ones I mainly use a quick break and lets the lactic acid flow away. Again, that's probably unorthodox. I did notice that most of the Wicklow 200 riders that cruised by me going up Sally Gap were very light and were mostly out of the saddle. Interested to hear thoughts on that.

Likewise, what gradients would generally be regarded as Medium, Steep, Hardcore, and Mental?

ollietrex

I remember the first time I climbed up past the merry plough boy and up to the bridge on my road bike I thought I was going to die and I don't think I got back on my bike for a few days.

The next time I went out it was easier and I now regularly ride that hill on spins and from time to time for hill repeats and it does get easier.

Best mentality is to tell your self you like climbing and climb as many hills as possible in your ride.

Hungrycol

TinyExplosions wrote: »

the second time up a hill is easier

Unless it's a follow on from the first climb. e.g. Slieve Mann was not easier cos I already had done Sally gap and Wicklow gap. Just kidding, it was easier

Frank.... 27inch thighs?!... holy bat farts.

Civilian_Target

Nothing to say that others haven't.
I cycle to work up a similar hill, 200m climb, 1/8 gradient, on a 16kg city bike.
The first time it nearly killed me, lowest gear, spinning and considering getting off and pushing. Second time wasn't any better. Nor was third time.
I guess I'm on about the 30th time at this point, I can stand on the pedals and climb all the way to the top without sitting down.

Moral: Spin, rinse, repeat.

blorg

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I used to cycle a Raleigh Vitesse racer years ago (fond memories of that loyal servant) and it was a Double chainset

Was probably a 42 small ring too!

FrankGrimes

Hungrycol wrote: »

Frank.... 27inch thighs?!... holy bat farts.

Mmm, I'd never actually measured them myself (who would?) - a nurse measured various parts of my leg before I had surgery there a few weeks ago and she wrote it down as 27" and commented on it. Seeing your reaction made me think it might be off, so I did a quick measurement just now and the biggest point I can see comes out at 25.5", not sure how that compares to the normal.

FrankGrimes

blorg wrote: »

Was probably a 42 small ring too!

Not sure what that actually means, but if it means it was a bitch going up steep hills than hell yeh it was!

Loved that bike though - got it for my 18th in 98 and had it for 6 years and did plenty of miles on it in and out of college. It was heavy but trusty. Gave it to a friend who promised to use it but it's been sitting in his shed for years - might have to reclaim it and try the Heller again on it in a while for nostalgia.

blorg

The smaller ring at the front was probably 42 teeth- standard on a road double these days is 39 teeth. The more teeth, the harder the gear.

FrankGrimes

blorg wrote: »

The smaller ring at the front was probably 42 teeth- standard on a road double these days is 39 teeth. The more teeth, the harder the gear.

Nah, reckon it was about 52 at least so - that thing was a beast

irishmotorist

I don't see it mentioned earlier and it's probably not relevant, but what kind of bike are you on and is it well maintained? I'm just thinking that if you're trying the hills on a mountain bike with a rusty chain and half inflated tyres, you're quadrupling your workload from the start.

lukester

Wow, tons of helpful tips there. The moral seems to be practise, practise, and practise some more.

In answer to some questions-

I'm riding a fairly new aluminium road-bike, kept in good nick- I'm anal about that sort of thing.

Weight-wise, I'm probably 14 -20 pounds heavier than my mate, which is about the amount I'm trying to lose right now through both cycling and some nutrition changes

Re the climb itself, it's the steeper part that gets me. I don't go for bust at the start because I know how hard I find it, i.e. I pace myself. I keep up with the other fella until a specific corner every time, where I start to get very out of breath and he just eases away.

Re gear choice, cadence, etc- at the moment I can only do the steepest part on the granny ring of my triple. That still gives me a half-decent cadence- I aspire to moving up to tougher ratios. I only move down to this ring for the toughest part at the moment.

I always stay in the saddle. I read some advice online about standing up for hills, but that seemed to be for shorter bursts. Don't think there's any way I'd make it all the way up this hill standing.

What is the deal with heart rate? Is there an optimum level you should be achieving? All I know is the first time I tried it I thought my chest was going to explode, was totally out of breath, and had no strength left in my legs, even started cramping near the top. After a few more attempts I find I have a bit more in reserve by the end and amn't quite so out of breath.


There is a sort of perverse pleasure I get from it, despite the pain. I have felt like I'm about to die a few times, but once I make it to the top that's all forgotten. Must be the same principle as childbirth...

blorg

If you are 15-20 lb heavier then your friend has a major advantage. If you can lose that sort of amount (depends on your body- are you otherwise similar in size?) you will likely find it a lot easier.

Even if you are your optimal weight for your size, a lighter cyclist will still get up the hills quicker. Generally, if you are optimally fit, a larger cyclist will be better at sprinting on the flat, but worse going up hills.

Don't necessarily try to keep with your friend; find your own pace and get up without exploding.

DirkVoodoo

Basically you are carrying an extra lightweight bike with you on the climbs, assuming a 9kg bike is an average lightweight...no small feat!

stuf

lukester wrote: »

What is the deal with heart rate? Is there an optimum level you should be achieving? All I know is the first time I tried it I thought my chest was going to explode, was totally out of breath, and had no strength left in my legs, even started cramping near the top. After a few more attempts I find I have a bit more in reserve by the end and amn't quite so out of breath.

When you're exercising optimally you should be breathing heavily but still be able to talk comfortably. Once you start panting and wouldn't be able to talk easilly then you're beyond the optimal (60-80% of maximum) zone. Ideally, you shouldn't be in that state for long. But pushing beyond the 80% for short periods does aid raising cardiac fitness - like any muscle you strain, recover and repair and the muscle is stronger and more efficient. Also you don't want to over strain the heart muscle either for obvious reasons.

blorg

Note on climbs I wouldn't expect you to be able to talk comfortably, you _should_ be above your normal cycling heart rate. But not into a zone you can't sustain for several minutes (however long it takes to get up the climb!) It is about finding out what you can sustain up an extended climb and making sure you don't go above that.

From my own experience ~90% would be the sustainable limit but it may be lower for you if you are new to cycling. You need to find your own limit and stick within that; you should find yourself getting to the top easier and when you do you can ratchet it up a few %.

Raam

lukester wrote: »

I always stay in the saddle. I read some advice online about standing up for hills, but that seemed to be for shorter bursts. Don't think there's any way I'd make it all the way up this hill standing.

It really depends on what works best for you. I tend to climb standing if I am just sauntering up, if I am on a long steady climb and going at a good pace, I'll do it seated. If I'm really struggling, i.e. in danger of going backwards, I may stand. If I'm sprinting up a hill I'll stand. Give it all a go and find out what works best for you. For me, climbing is the best part, I love it, although not necessarily at the time.

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

I tend to climb standing if I am just sauntering up... If I'm really struggling, i.e. in danger of going backwards, I may stand.

Please god tell me it's the latter on the climbs with us around Wicklow, cos if you're sauntering up them I may as well quit now

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Please god tell me it's the latter on the climbs with us around Wicklow, cos if you're sauntering up them I may as well quit now

Sorry dude
Being a skinny-ass also helps.

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

Sorry dude
Being a skinny-ass also helps.

*sigh*... maybe there's an opening in extreme crocheting...
anyone want to buy a slightly used Focus Variado Expert?

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

*sigh*... maybe there's an opening in extreme crocheting...
anyone want to buy a slightly used Focus Variado Expert?

Sauntering was the wrong word to use. ""Cycling within myself", would be a better term.
Earlier in the year I did a tonne of training. I would do lots of summits of Howth and just climb each one like I was going to get off the bike at the top and finish for the day. I would be smashed by the time I get to the top, but then I would just recover on the ride down.

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

Sauntering was the wrong word to use. ""Cycling within myself", would be a better term.
Earlier in the year I did a tonne of training. I would do lots of summits of Howth and just climb each one like I was going to get off the bike at the top and finish for the day. I would be smashed by the time I get to the top, but then I would just recover on the ride down.

Ah it's cool mate -I know when I'm faced with a much better (lighter) cyclist. I'm happy enough with my progress so far

Raam

Now I can just about keep up with Fast Roger, when he lets me.
It was a sink or swim situation when I first started, and boy did I struggle!

TinyExplosions

Raam wrote: »

Now I can just about keep up with Fast Roger, when he lets me.
It was a sink or swim situation when I first started, and boy did I struggle!

I know the feeling of being let keep up with people... I'm grand when it's flat, it's just the hills that kill me, but I'm getting better

cantalach

I agree with blorg that keeping the heart rate under control is the key. Once you exceed your lactate threshold (LT), your goose will eventually be cooked because the accumulations of lactic acid will slow you down. How soon it bites depends on how far into the red you've gone, i.e. the shorter the hill the more you can get away with without blowing up. The LT for most fit people lies somewhere between 80-90%. I know where mine is from trial and error (probably a bit unscientific) and so long as I hold it at or below this I can climb for a long time, while still having something in reserve for the final kick to the line at the top. This has unfortunately made me a bit of a slave to my HR monitor, although I forgot to bring the strap to the Wicklow 200 and got on just fine without it.

P.S. I missed the entire second page of posts, some of which are making the points I'm making above!

lukester

I think the first time I did this climb I got to the stage where I was just barely moving forwards, totally out of breath, heart pounding, thought I was going to die.

Second time, was still crawling up the last bit, nearly dead. The last few times I've managed to maintain a decent cadence and can feel I have a little bit in reserve, but that's on the wuss ring

I take the point to ride your own ride- to be honest I'm not that worried about catching my mate, we have a bit of good natured competitiveness going on, and I can burn him on the straights .

I'm about a stone above my ideal weight, all belly area, it's gradually dropping away, so that will help no doubt. Ultimately I just enjoy it and am curious how other folks go about improving. I'm happy to just progress gradually, painfully.

For my next spin I'm masochistically considering the hill Frank mentions, from Stocking Lane up past the Hell Fire Club, to the viewpoint at Cruagh (and ultimately on to Kiltiernan). I've freewheeled down that a few times, and it's long...I'll probably regret it. It's bizarre, when I'm actually climbing I ask myself why the fluck am I doing this, but then afterwards I'm dying to do it again. Sick really.

niceonetom

lukester, how that cube treating you?

good advice here, so i'll throw my 2c into the pile.

rhythm. it's all about rhythm for me. breathing and pedalling coordinated to make a good little dance of it (i tend to resort to mentally singing metallica to myself when really on the rivet - it helps). second thing is breath as deeply and as slowly as you can, don't pant. it's just as important to get the CO2 out as it is to get the O2 in, so i find that a forceful puff on the exhale and a slow deep inhale get the best transfer. breath into your belly. relax your arms and shoulders as much as you can without falling off the bike... i don't stand much when climbing, but i do find that sitting as far forward on the saddle as possible gives a better power stroke. pull up at the back, keep the chain tight.

lastly, enjoy those endorphins, there basically free drugs (the best kind). our minds cannot accurately remember pain, but we do remember the endorphins that our bodies use to mask it. if this were not true no woman would ever have a second child.

it never gets any easier though, you just suffer at a higher speed.

Raam

niceonetom wrote: »

i do find that sitting as far forward on the saddle as possible gives a better power stroke.

I've read that it's better to sit back further back in the saddle to allow for better leg extension when climbing.
I guess it's a personal thing.

FrankGrimes

lukester wrote: »

For my next spin I'm masochistically considering the hill Frank mentions, from Stocking Lane up past the Hell Fire Club, to the viewpoint at Cruagh (and ultimately on to Kiltiernan).

I'm not familiar with the Stocking Lane route (might drive it to check it out), but the route I do starts from Firhouse and would probably meet you at the T-junction (where I turn right) up beyond Orlagh monastery. There's I dunno, maybe 700metres between Orlagh and that t-junction and it's a relentless fairly steep climb - great test.

lukester

niceonetom wrote: »

lukester, how that cube treating you?

Great, I really like it. It's my first road bike really, well, since I was about 12, so I've nothing to compare it to other than my crappy day commuter. I took a spin on my friend's road bike, a Claud Butler carbon jobbie, can't remember the model, it has Tiagra groupset, and I was delighted to get back on my yoke. The shifting felt way smoother and crisper, and the overall feel of the Cube was preferable for me, couldn't put my finger on it, just felt sharper all round. The carbon probably helps on the climbing though. How do you like yours?

niceonetom wrote: »

it's just as important to get the CO2 out as it is to get the O2 in, so i find that a forceful puff on the exhale and a slow deep inhale get the best transfer. breath into your belly.

I tried slowing my breathing down and breathing deeply, the bit of yoga I've done definitely helped there, but never thought of the need to expel CO2 forcefully, will try that.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the Stocking Lane route (might drive it to check it out), but the route I do starts from Firhouse and would probably meet you at the T-junction (where I turn right) up beyond Orlagh monastery. There's I dunno, maybe 700metres between Orlagh and that t-junction and it's a relentless fairly steep climb - great test.

Yeah, Stocking Lane comes up from Rathfarnham and would pass that T junction down to Firhouse. Don't know the hill you mean, sounds worth a go

72hundred

niceonetom wrote: »

it never gets any easier though, you just suffer at a higher speed.

brilliant observation!!!

Wez

niceonetom wrote: »

pull up at the back, keep the chain tight.

lastly, enjoy those endorphins, there basically free drugs (the best kind).

it never gets any easier though, you just suffer at a higher speed.

Some real good points there.. I find that full circle pedalling really helps me when it comes to hills/wind/weight putting a dampner on my pace. It's a good trait I've picked up from riding my fixie (which is sick atm, chain snagged + tore apart coulda been well dodge!). I find this much more efficient for getting the power to keep my pace up a hill or into the wind, which I see as pretty much the same problem.

I also find that instead of swinging the bike side to side pulling back and forth in a straight line on the bars gives me a much better boost, but just in a straight line (where I wanna go) and coupling this with the f.c. pedaling I find it much easier to get through the harder parts of cycling.

Some real good tips in this thread, good reading!

cantalach

niceonetom wrote: »

it never gets any easier though, you just suffer at a higher speed.

That was what Marco Pantani said when asked why he rode up mountains so quickly - to make the pain end sooner!

Btw, this is my first time posting via the m.boards.ie site for mobiles. Works very well! I'm installed in a locals sort of pub in Kenmare having a quiet night cap before the RoK in the morning.