Secular Turkey Under Threat

ChocolateSauce

I'm very keen on the current political situation in Turkey, where the ruling AKP is accused by its opponents of trying to undermine democracy and the secular state. The opponents are using the unelected courts and military to fight the democratically elected AKP- a party with Islamist roots.

Both sides say they support the secular state, and both sides claim to be fighting for democracy. So which is in the right?

I believe, in the long run, it is the courts, the military and the secular minority who are the guardians of democracy, not the democratically elected government. Here's why:

The greatest principle of democracy is personal freedom. Without personal freedom, democracy is worthless. Afghanistan is a so-called democracy, but it reality it is majoritarian rule, where the majority of people run the country together in a manner they see fit- with no consideration of the minority who disagree. I cite the case where the Americans had to rescue an Afghan citizen from his own government and fly him to Italy because he had been sentenced to death for apostasy. So although the government of Afghanistan is democratically elected, they are in reality a majoritarian fascist state where, to quote the great President Bush, "You're either with us or against us."

This is not democracy. This is not freedom.

Afghanistan is an extreme case, and things are not this bad in Turkey for the moment. While it is not good that headscarves are banned in state buildings (a blatant breach of freedom of expression), it is wholly understandable. Turkey is the most liberal and most democratic major state with a Muslim majority in the world. Compared with other states like Iran and Saudi Arabia, and even other democratic Muslim states like Pakistan and Indonesia, its citizens enjoy wide-ranging freedoms, like the right to drink alcohol, the right for women to wear swimsuits, and the right to criticise religion in general, and Islam in particular.

Why is Turkey so different? It comes down to one reason: Islam is not allowed in government. Turkey is the only secular state in the world with a large Muslim majority. And while this secularism has been imposed on the state through undemocratic means, it has democratic outcome. With some notable exceptions, such as the law banning insults to the Turkish nation (which can be put down to nationalism, not religion), the undemocratic secular establishments have safeguarded personal liberty, including the right to practice religion.

Do you think if it were the other way around, those liberties would exist? No. If you do, you are incredibly naive. If the courts and the military were Islamist as well as the government, they would start de-secularising the nation. The un-enlightened democrat apologist will say this is the will of the people, and nothing should stop it, least of all the unelected elite. But what happens to the minority who are not strongly religious, or even religious at all? One by one their rights will be taken away.

People have more rights in secular Turkey than they will in a non-secular Turkey. The secular impose very few authoritarian laws when compared with the religious, and the ones they do (such as the infamous headscarf ban) they do for a reason: They are terrified.

And they have good reason to be. The AKP will use their democratic mandate to justify taking away personal freedoms from their detractors. Conservative Muslim Turks, unlike their secular counterparts, believe they have a mandate from god to impose their views on others. It has been seen countless times throughout history in every religion, and today Turkey is the battleground. Are the Muslims afraid of the secular? Maybe, but they have no reason to be. The secular are not saying your women must go uncovered, they are not demanding you faithful must drink alcohol, they are not demanding they eat pork during Ramadan. All the secular are saying is you must not force your beliefs on us, but this is too much for some to swallow, and it is more than can be said for them.

The AKP is posing as a cringing victim right now, but without the secular establishment to combat them, they will snowball into an Islamo-fascist party bent on making all Turks more respectable in the eyes of Allah.

Things in Turkey must change. Women should be allowed to wear whatever they want, and people should be allowed to spit on pictures of Kemel Ataturk if they choose, but I understand their terror, and share it. If I thought a democratically elected Catholic Irish government was going to tell me I had to be Catholic or at very least kowtow to Catholics, I'd either emigrate or enter into armed rebellion.

Majoritarian rule is not democracy, and imposed freedom is not oppression.

wes

From Yesterdays independent.

Two Turkish generals held over plot to kill Nobel laureate

Conspirators 'planned armed rebellion to destabilise Turkey'

Wednesday, 2 July 2008

Turkish police have arrested two retired top generals they believe were members of a state-backed gang suspected of a slew of high-profile killings and a plot to murder the Nobel Prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk.

The former military police chief Sener Eruygur and Hursit Tolon, former army number two, were among 25 people taken into custody in Ankara early yesterday in the latest twist in investigations that began last year.

Dozens of people – including another retired general and a prominent ultra-nationalist lawyer – are already in custody on charges of "provoking armed rebellion against the government".

The plotters' plan, allegedly, was to assassinate public intellectuals, Kurdish politicians, even target military personnel, as part of a campaign to destabilise Turkish society and force military intervention.

The secular elite in Turkey are annoyed that the poor people have voted in a government, that caters to them. Explain how murdering Orahn Pamuk is democratic or about freedom? Explain to me why Kurds aren't worthy of freedom? The secular elite seems happy to murder Kurdish leaders.

A lot of what you said about the AKP has very little basis in fact I am afraid. They have a democratic mandate from the majority. The old elite are thugs who are against democracy and happy to murder nobel laureates.

I know democracy can be inconvenient some times, but its the best system going. Perhaps the old elite need to offer the people something new, instead of scare mongering. Take there case to the people and stop making excuses for there own failures. Thats how democracy works, they should give it a try.

To say the secular elite are defenders of democracy, when there record clearly show there not is insanity. The secular elite are happy to impose there rule on the majority and your ok with that due to there scare mongering. Freedom only for the the people you agree with.

You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims about the AKP, and ignore the simple fact that the old secular elite are thugs who will murder people who disagree with them. Ultra nationalist thugs aren't any better than there religious equivalent.

Of course there is little evidence to suggest that the AKP are Islamo-facists or will become that. Its what there opposition is saying and there hardly about to say nice things about them.

Also, the AKP have not taken away anyones rights. So how can you say there not democratic or that there rule is Majoritarian? You are making predictions and have little to back them up bar, what the opposition is saying. Perhaps before you make claims you should provide proof that the AKP are going to take away rights from the secular elite? You claim they will oppress people, but have nothing to back that up? Care to provide evidence for you predictions?

Look I think secularism is the way to go, and I don't see how the AKP are against it, when they are the only Turkish government to changes laws to get into the EU. Like getting rid of the death penalty. Thats hardly something hard core Islamists would do. Hell hard core Islamists, wouldn't join the EU at all and they would have scrapped that the first chance they had. Why does Turkey still have relations with Israel as well btw? Islamists would never talk to them in a million years.

The AkP, are basically the Turkish equivalent of the USA's Republican party, they may not be nice people and be a bit too religious, but there not about to set up a theocracy.

ChocolateSauce

wes wrote: »

They have a democratic mandate from the majority. The old elite are thugs who are against democracy and happy to murder nobel laureates.

You didn't read my take on this at all, did you?

The majority will oppress the minority if they are allowed, and this is not democracy. Those old elite thugs are of the same ilk as the old elite thugs who disestablished state religion, removed the priviliges of nobility and made a decisive move towards the west, away from the middle east. Why the west? Because they admired the west, and wanted to (in fact they still do) emulate it.

In the US, if the evangelicals brought in a law saying children had to pray in schools, this would be a democratic decision that has undemocratic concequences. Of course, the unelected courts could and would strike down this law, because it is against the constitution.

Anyway, this news is troubling. Looks like ultra-nationalism sentiment aimed at a man who dares question the genocide.

wes wrote: »

Explain how murdering Orahn Pamuk is democratic or about freedom? Explain to me why Kurds aren't worthy of freedom?

Tell me where I supported his murder or said Kurds weren't worthy of freedom?

wes wrote: »

Freedom only for the the people you agree with.

More proof you didn't read or didn't understand anything I said. I explicitly and specifically said I support freedom for all. To clarify, I was speaking of personal liberty, and saying thanks to the establishment, Turks enjoy more freedom than in another other state with an Islamic majority. I agree the Kurds need their right to self-determination. On the other hand, should they be allowed to form a Kurdish state where elements of sharia law are incoorperated into civil law? For the sake of their women, to mention just one group, maybe staying with Turkey, where devout Muslim men are (oh horror!) forced to treat women as humans, not cattle, isn't such a bad thing?

AKP is the descendant of the fundamentalist religous movement in Turkey. I will confess that they have not done anything which breaches the line between church and state, yet, but it is comprised mostly of people who were in its predecessor party, the Welfare Party (http://countrystudies.us/turkey/83.htm). If you think a party like that will ever get into government and not try to Islamise the country, you're underestimating the zelousness of religious people and their belief they have a right to tell others how to live. Their great popularity can also be attributed to their very good management of the economy, which they are very keen to emphisize over their Islamist past.

I am making predictions. Isn't that one of what political scientists do? Proof the APK is going to take away rights? I have the evidence of precedent. Perhaps the greatest example of all is when Christainity became the majority religion of Rome. Until then, they were persecuted, but no sooner had they the mandate of majority then they began to brutally oppress those who did not see it their way.

Political parties of any kind who describe themselves, or once described themselves, in terms of religion, cannot be trusted with civil liberties. Would anyone in Ireland vote for a party that was calling for the restoration of traditional "morals and virtues" in a decidedly Catholic context? Some, yes, but we can only be glad those people are in a tiny minority. In Turkey they are not tiny, they are dangerously large, and they inspire terror in those who do not share their views, because unlike in the west, where no one likethat has any real chance of getting into power, in Turkey they do. In Turkey they are.The AKP are treading very lightly because they know they are not trusted, and they have commendably acted well so far. I'm not looking at what they have done, I'm looking at who is in charge. Their words and actions are moderate, even liberal, but the individuals are not.

Despite all I've said, I actually very, very cautiously support the AKP, because actions speak louder than words and thusfar their actions have been positive. I don't trust them though, and neither do most un-religious Turks.

wes

theozster wrote: »

You didn't read my take on this at all, did you?

I read it and I disagree. Your take smacks of scare mongering.

theozster wrote: »

The majority will oppress the minority if they are allowed, and this is not democracy. Those old elite thugs are of the same ilk as the old elite thugs who disestablished state religion, removed the priviliges of nobility and made a decisive move towards the west, away from the middle east. Why the west? Because they admired the west, and wanted to (in fact they still do) emulate it.

They admire some aspects of the West. The comfort certainly, but they have issues with the democracy.

Also, you are claiming the majority will oppress the minority. You saying it, won't make it so.

If the old secular elite don't like the election results. Maybe they ought to take there case to the people and stop being sore losers.

theozster wrote: »

In the US, if the evangelicals brought in a law saying children had to pray in schools, this would be a democratic decision that has undemocratic concequences. Of course, the unelected courts could and would strike down this law, because it is against the constitution.

Are they trying to do this? No they aren't. So it doesn't really matter.

Are the AKP trying to do anything like that as btw? You do realize that even under the secular elite that the Turkish government effectively controls the majority Muslim sect?

theozster wrote: »

Anyway, this news is troubling. Looks like ultra-nationalism sentiment aimed at a man who dares question the genocide.

Yes and these people are a part of the secular elite. They don't seem like they will be good for Turkey and don't seem to get Western values at all.

theozster wrote: »

Tell me where I supported his murder or said Kurds weren't worthy of freedom?

You clearly don't. Apologies, I meant that the secular elite seems to support this and not you.

theozster wrote: »

More proof you didn't read or didn't understand anything I said. I explicitly and specifically said I support freedom for all. To clarify, I was speaking of personal liberty, and saying thanks to the establishment, Turks enjoy more freedom than in another other state with an Islamic majority. I agree the Kurds need their right to self-determination. On the other hand, should they be allowed to form a Kurdish state where elements of sharia law are incoorperated into civil law? For the sake of their women, to mention just one group, maybe staying with Turkey, where devout Muslim men are (oh horror!) forced to treat women as humans, not cattle, isn't such a bad thing?

You have any evidence that the PKK (lead by Women), would implement Sharia law? It really doesn't strike me as something they would do. You are making a lot of odd claims here. Perhaps you ought to read up on the PKK, because what your saying here make no sense, once you know who the PKK are.

Also, your again making an prediction based on what you think will happen and you seem to have no knowledge of the Kurds and there culture. They are pretty secular themselves for example and are comparatively moderate, when compared to the rest of the ME. The Women in Iraqi Kurdistan for example aren't covered head to toe and wear traditional Kurdish dress.

So the whole evil Muslims religious guys scare mongering doesn't make much sense.

theozster wrote: »

AKP is the descendant of the fundamentalist religous movement in Turkey. I will confess that they have not done anything which breaches the line between church and state, yet, but it is comprised mostly of people who were in its predecessor party, the Welfare Party (http://countrystudies.us/turkey/83.htm). If you think a party like that will ever get into government and not try to Islamise the country, you're underestimating the zelousness of religious people and their belief they have a right to tell others how to live. Their great popularity can also be attributed to their very good management of the economy, which they are very keen to emphisize over their Islamist past.

So you agree they haven't done anything to get rid of secularism? So how can you say there is a threat to it? They seem to have learned from the past and have done nothing to suggest they are trying to get of secularism.

There present actions seem to go against, the kind of stuff Islamists would do. Stuff like changing laws to join the EU and getting rid of death penalty.

Its seem to me that the old elite lost power and want it back and are concocting scare stories.

theozster wrote: »

I am making predictions. Isn't that one of what political scientists do? Proof the APK is going to take away rights? I have the evidence of precedent. Perhaps the greatest example of all is when Christainity became the majority religion of Rome. Until then, they were persecuted, but no sooner had they the mandate of majority then they began to brutally oppress those who did not see it their way.

Sorry, you don't have a lot at all. I have pointed out several decidedly unIslamist activities of the AKP earlier. They have given no indications, they will in the future do what you say they will do and have in fact given indications that they are moving away from that.

Also, you need to base you predictions on more than precedent. Basing it on actions or indications from the AKP would make more sense.

Your predictions strikes me as scare mongering pure and simple.

theozster wrote: »

Political parties of any kind who describe themselves, or once described themselves, in terms of religion, cannot be trusted with civil liberties. Would anyone in Ireland vote for a party that was calling for the restoration of traditional "morals and virtues" in a decidedly Catholic context? Some, yes, but we can only be glad those people are in a tiny minority. In Turkey they are not tiny, they are dangerously large, and they inspire terror in those who do not share their views, because unlike in the west, where no one likethat has any real chance of getting into power, in Turkey they do. In Turkey they are.The AKP are treading very lightly because they know they are not trusted, and they have commendably acted well so far. I'm not looking at what they have done, I'm looking at who is in charge. Their words and actions are moderate, even liberal, but the individuals are not.

Seriously what the hell? So basically nothing they have done indicates there going to get rid of secularism, but you still think they will.

Have you considered the possibility that the old elite are just sore losers?

theozster wrote: »

Despite all I've said, I actually very, very cautiously support the AKP, because actions speak louder than words and thusfar their actions have been positive. I don't trust them though, and neither do most un-religious Turks.

I don't trust them either, but I don't trust the un-religious Turks either. Who strike me as a group of sore losers, who will get rid of democracy, when it doesn't go there way and to add to that are crazy ultra-nationalists.

The article in the independent I linked to earlier, make the old elite the far greater threat to democracy in Turkey at the moment.

Basically you make a lot of predictions, but they don't make sense, when I look at whats going in Turkey with the AKP and the with the Kurds.

**EDIT**

Also, the old elite, do no strike me as scared. They seem like a bunch of sore losers, who are power hungry more than anything else and are trying to motivate there base via fear. A very common tactic used to motivate people. They are currently trying to ban a party that is the democratic choice of the majority of Turks, which I find personally repugnant. They want to enforce there will on the majority e.g banning there democractic choice, they are actively trying there best to do so.

I see no indications of the AKP trying to do anything to take away there rights at present. The only thing they have done is get rid of the head scarf law, which they have a democratic mandate for, as it was something they promised. Based on this the old elite is trying to get them banned. This look like them trying (the old elite), trying to enforce there way on the majority.

So looking at the current information, I see the old elite as a danger to Turkish democracy and I don't see the AKP as a threat to secularism, as they have give no indications that they are and infact giving indication that suggest the opposite.

CtrlSource

i don't know enough about the internal workings of Turkish politics, but as an outsider and someone who is interested to see if Turkey will one day be admitted to the EU, i have to say that these issues and no doubt others, will hardly add to their case and show them to be deserving of membership. They are currently far from having a country that fits the European model of democracy, mutual respect for secular and religious alike and equality for those in the minority

wes

The Big Question: Why is tension rising in Turkey, and is the country turning Islamist?

By Nicholas Birch in Istanbul
Tuesday, 8 July 2008

Why are we asking this now?

For Turkey's more radical secularists, there is a war going on between the defenders of Kemalism – the mix of authoritarian secularism, statism and nationalism that is still Turkey's official ideology – and a government intent on imposing Islam on the country. The AKP government insists the struggle is between democrats and defenders of an outdated authoritarian political vision. Cynics see a battle between two sides linked by their obsession with controlling the state apparatus and their cavalier attitude to democracy.

Since March, eight months after it swept to victory at general elections with 47 per cent of the vote, AKP has been facing closure on charges of anti-secular activities. The prosecutor who opened the case called for five-year political bans for 71 AKP members including the prime minister and the president.

Tensions soared again last week when police – for the first time in Turkey's history – arrested two retired top generals suspected of planning a coup attempt just two hours before the prosecutor pleaded for AKP's closure in court. Secularists insist the arrests were the AKP's revenge for the closure case.

Click here for the rest of the article

The above article is pretty even handed and shows both sides story. Both seem to be pretty authoritarian and both seem to be trying to make out the other guys to be far worse than they probably are.