Jesus: The Missing Years

R0ot

So what happened between the age of 13 and 30 in Jesus life. That's a pretty big gap of information in the bible for such an influential time in Christ's life. Just wondering whats the boardsies opinions on this gap of information.

Personally I like the film Dogma's view on it as far fetched as it may be.

Rufas (The 13th Apostle) is talking to the Last Zion explaining why in the movie she was tapped to stop the two fallen Angels, and he explains the reason the information is missing was that it conflicted with the current church dogma and that the 18 years missing was time Christ took coming to terms that he isn't just God's only son but he's God and will be forsaken by the very people he's here to save.

PDN

R0ot wrote: »

So what happened between the age of 13 and 30 in Jesus life. That's a pretty big gap of information in the bible for such an influential time in Christ's life. Just wondering whats the boardsies opinions on this gap of information.

Personally I like the film Dogma's view on it as far fetched as it may be.

Rufas (The 13th Apostle) is talking to the Last Zion explaining why in the movie she was tapped to stop the two fallen Angels, and he explains the reason the information is missing was that it conflicted with the current church dogma and that the 18 years missing was time Christ took coming to terms that he isn't just God's only son but he's God and will be forsaken by the very people he's here to save.

We don't know. He probably worked as a carpenter and supported his mother until His brothers and sisters were old enough to assume responsibility for her. That, of course, is a guess - but it makes more sense to me to assume the commonplace rather than imagine something dramatic or unlikely.

robindch

R0ot wrote: »

So what happened between the age of 13 and 30 in Jesus life. That's a pretty big gap of information in the bible for such an influential time in Christ's life. Just wondering whats the boardsies opinions on this gap of information.

More than likely, it's missing for no greater reason than it was never put in. Biographies of the time were not like the vaguely linear, referenced and researched biographies that we're more familiar with today. On the contrary, modern critics believe that ancient authors typically picked out, or entirely invented, selected incidents from the life of the subject and animated them with speeches, emotions and feelings according to the author's wishes. The idea of an objective, nuanced approach to writing balanced biographies did not really seem to exist back then. The clearest example of this that I can think of involves the two versions of Socrates' Apology, which paint quite dramatically different pictures of Socrates, but there are plenty more examples of wildly-varying characterizations too.

There's certainly no convincing evidence one way or the other to indicate whether or not the church subsequently altered existing texts, but it's a well-established fact that the church did remove entire books that it considered unrepresentative. Whether the discarded books actually are unrepresentative, or whether the ones that were retained are not, is an unanswerable question.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

We don't know. He probably worked as a carpenter and supported his mother until His brothers and sisters were old enough to assume responsibility for her. That, of course, is a guess - but it makes more sense to me to assume the commonplace rather than imagine something dramatic or unlikely.

Mary was and still is a virgin. Why do you think Mary went to live with John when Jesus died if she could have lived with another son or daughter?

See http://www.religion-cults.com/mary/virgin.htm and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Virginity

philologos

kelly1 wrote: »

Mary was and still is a virgin. Why do you think Mary went to live with John when Jesus died if she could have lived with another son or daughter?

See http://www.religion-cults.com/mary/virgin.htm and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Virginity

What about Jesus' brothers and sisters referred to in the Bible? I personally think Mary had children after Jesus. It wouldn't make sense that they were his brothers and sisters otherwise.

Akrasia

There was some guy on the radio a few weeks ago claiming Jesus went travelling with a wealthy merchant and that he spent a lot of time studying with druids in England.

It makes about as much sense as anything else.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Did-Jesus-Come-Britain-Investigation/dp/1905570155

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

Mary was and still is a virgin. Why do you think Mary went to live with John when Jesus died if she could have lived with another son or daughter?

See http://www.religion-cults.com/mary/virgin.htm and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Virginity

There could be any number of reasons why she went to live with John. the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a biblical teaching, so I think we both know where this discussion will end up since we differ as to whether your church has the right to tell me what to believe.

dreamr

i think that he prob spent alot of that time perfecting his trade. like you cant just bring the dead back to life, you have to practice it. and like breaking the loaves and fish, he prob had to start off small. He just made sure that he was spot on when he decided to prove to everyone he was the son of the Lord.

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

What about Jesus' brothers and sisters referred to in the Bible?

In Ancient Greek, the terms 'brother' and 'sister' referred to more than just one's immediate siblings, and typically included first cousins too. Still does in Russian, Ukrainian and other Slavic languages.

PDN

Akrasia wrote: »

There was some guy on the radio a few weeks ago claiming Jesus went travelling with a wealthy merchant and that he spent a lot of time studying with druids in England.

It makes about as much sense as anything else.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Did-Jesus-Come-Britain-Investigation/dp/1905570155

Hence the revolting 'hymn' Jerusalem.

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountain green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.

kelly1

Jakkass wrote: »

What about Jesus' brothers and sisters referred to in the Bible? I personally think Mary had children after Jesus. It wouldn't make sense that they were his brothers and sisters otherwise.

brother and sister was a generic term. From that link I posted:

The word used in the Bible for brother or sister is adelphos (adelpha) in Greek, and this is the same word used in the Bible for cousin, relative, uncle, nephew, near kinsman... because the people in Israel lived in "clans" or "tribes", in groups of may be10 or 15 families, all related, descendants of the same grandparents, but children of different father and mother, and all of them were known as "the brothers"...
... So, in the Old Testament, "brother" is used for "nephew" (Gen.12:5), "uncle" (Gen.29: 15), "husband" (Songs.4:9), a member of the same tribe (2Kgs.9:13), of the same people (Exod.2:21), an ally (Amos 1:9), a friend (2 Kgs.1:26), one of the same office (1Sam.9:13)...
... In the New Testament, "brother"is used even for people of the same nationality (Acts 3:17), for persons united by a common interest (Mt 5:47), for persons united by a common calling (Rev 22:9), for mankind (Mt 25:40), for the disciples (Mt 23:8), for believers (Mt 23:8)....
In the Bible, in fact, the term "brother" is used 350 times, mostly not in reference to a natural brother.


The question is still relevant; Why didn't Mary go to live with one of her sons or daughters when Jesus died?

Anyway, I'm not going to hijack this thread any more.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

There could be any number of reasons why she went to live with John. the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a biblical teaching, so I think we both know where this discussion will end up since we differ as to whether your church has the right to tell me what to believe.

Minor clarification -- Noel's church has no right to tell you what you should believe, but it certainly thinks it does since it believes itself to be in error-free communication with the creator of the universe and therefore empowered to pronounce upon god's behalf.

But the subtlety and general applicability of that point is best left for the other "moral issues" thread which I'll get back to later on

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

brother and sister was a generic term. From that link I posted:

The word used in the Bible for brother or sister is adelphos (adelpha) in Greek, and this is the same word used in the Bible for cousin, relative, uncle, nephew, near kinsman... because the people in Israel lived in "clans" or "tribes", in groups of may be10 or 15 families, all related, descendants of the same grandparents, but children of different father and mother, and all of them were known as "the brothers"...
... So, in the Old Testament, "brother" is used for "nephew" (Gen.12:5), "uncle" (Gen.29: 15), "husband" (Songs.4:9), a member of the same tribe (2Kgs.9:13), of the same people (Exod.2:21), an ally (Amos 1:9), a friend (2 Kgs.1:26), one of the same office (1Sam.9:13)...
... In the New Testament, "brother"is used even for people of the same nationality (Acts 3:17), for persons united by a common interest (Mt 5:47), for persons united by a common calling (Rev 22:9), for mankind (Mt 25:40), for the disciples (Mt 23:8), for believers (Mt 23:8)....
In the Bible, in fact, the term "brother" is used 350 times, mostly not in reference to a natural brother.


The question is still relevant; Why didn't Mary go to live with one of her sons or daughters when Jesus died?

Anyway, I'm not going to hijack this thread any more.

Noel, I find it interesting that when you debate with Jimi about Peter being the rock that you want to ignore the shades of meaning of Greek words on the grounds that Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek. But now that it suits you, you want to stress the shades of meaning in a Greek word even though those who spoke of Jesus' brothers and sisters would have spoken Aramaic.

Don't you think you are trying to have your cake and to eat it?

Bduffman

kelly1 wrote: »

Mary was and still is a virgin. Why do you think Mary went to live with John when Jesus died if she could have lived with another son or daughter?

How does this prove Mary was a virgin? Just because she didn't live with her other children? Maybe she didn't get on with them...Maybe they lived too far away...Maybe they couldn't afford to keep her.
And why does it have to be believed that Mary stayed a virgin for her whole life? Surely if you believe in the virgin birth it doesn't matter what she did after that?
Unless of couse you suffer from the catholic curse of believing sex is somehow connected to sin in some way?

all the stars

I never really gave much thought about MAry remaining virginal... I actually though she wound up getting married to joseph? or had kids?

Anyway - in real lfe, i went to her final home in Turkey up the mountains... anybody been there? Its amazing, really high up the mountains, and so many differant religions were there, huge big info sheets in all these languages and relevant to each religion. It was pretty cool...
But the actual house/church is soooo small...

JimiTime

If Mary did remain a virgin, then Joseph deserves special mention. Thats some self control.
But if you believe the RCC can't lie, then you have to believe it don't you. Otherwise its heracy, as many of the early objectors to this doctrine found out quite painfully.

pookie82

robindch wrote: »

Biographies of the time were not like the vaguely linear, referenced and researched biographies that we're more familiar with today. On the contrary, modern critics believe that ancient authors typically picked out, or entirely invented, selected incidents from the life of the subject and animated them with speeches, emotions and feelings according to the author's wishes.

Makes one question some of the harder-to-believe stories about walking on water and what not....

JCB

JimiTime wrote: »

If Mary did remain a virgin, then Joseph deserves special mention. Thats some self control.
But if you believe the RCC can't lie, then you have to believe it don't you. Otherwise its heracy, as many of the early objectors to this doctrine found out quite painfully.

Perhaps this may be of interest in general:

Martin Luther declared that the doctrine was not of vital importance, but "we should simply hold that (Mary) remained a virgin after the birth of Christ because Scripture does not state or indicate that she later lost her virginity".[24] He taught that "Christ, our Saviour, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that"; and that " Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers".[25] In fact Luther held throughout his career that, "in childbirth and after childbirth, as she was a virgin before childbirth, so she remained".[26]

PDN

JCB wrote: »

Perhaps this may be of interest in general:

Martin Luther declared that the doctrine was not of vital importance, but "we should simply hold that (Mary) remained a virgin after the birth of Christ because Scripture does not state or indicate that she later lost her virginity".[24] He taught that "Christ, our Saviour, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that"; and that " Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers".[25] In fact Luther held throughout his career that, "in childbirth and after childbirth, as she was a virgin before childbirth, so she remained".[26]

Thanks for that. It confirms what I've always felt about Luther.

philologos

Mark 6:3 wrote:

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us. And they took offence at him.

Notably James the Righteous is recognised as the brother of Jesus, and the founder of the Church in Jerusalem. He is also noted as being Jesus' brother in Josephus' Jewish Antiquities.

I don't know what other way you can take that verse.

Jewish Antiquities Volume 20, Chapter 9:200 wrote:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them was the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

Thus I'm using the Jewish Antiquities as a secondary source to point to what is mentioned in Scripture as a primary source.