Romans 9, pre-destination?

JimiTime

Hello, fellow Christians. (i.e. Could this be a christian post only thread, thanks.)

Reading the Romans chapter below, it seems to indicate that people are selected, rather than them finding the truth. It gets really interesting from about verse 10. Love to hear your thoughts on it.
Thanks,
Jimi.

Romans 9 wrote:

1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."[l]

Israel's Unbelief
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[m]

TravelJunkie

JimiTime wrote: »

Hello, fellow Christians. (i.e. Could this be a christian post only thread, thanks.)

Reading the Romans chapter below, it seems to indicate that people are selected, rather than them finding the truth. It gets really interesting from about verse 10. Love to hear your thoughts on it.
Thanks,
Jimi.

Yes, this talks about God having pre-destined the Gentiles to follow Him and he knew then that they would surpass the Jews.

But I think you're implying that God predestined us to believe in him? No I don't agree with that. Referring to the potter for molding for noble purposes and common use, I think this could be applied in the sense that , within christianity, there are some 'more special' or 'more noble' people. Let's face it. I'm talking about people with special gifts and ministries, prophets, healers etc.
I think those people are pre-destined for their ministry.

Is that what you were asking? Could've gotten the whole thing wrong.

PDN

I believe some people were called by God to specific tasks even before they were born. Also, as Travel Junkie has said, a nation can be predestined to a purpose without necessarily implying that everybody within that nation is saved or otherwise. So Jacob's descendants (the Jews) were part of God's plan rather than Esau's descendants (the Edomites). This would be the sense in which God "loved Jacob" and "hated Esau."

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

I believe some people were called by God to specific tasks even before they were born. Also, as Travel Junkie has said, a nation can be predestined to a purpose without necessarily implying that everybody within that nation is saved or otherwise. So Jacob's descendants (the Jews) were part of God's plan rather than Esau's descendants (the Edomites). This would be the sense in which God "loved Jacob" and "hated Esau."

What about the extract below? It seems to indicate that it doesn't matter about your desire or effort, its about being chosen. Are you saying this is only relative to those called for a special purpose? What say you about 'the book of life'? Would this combined with the below indicate that God already knows those who are saved? Again, I'm inconclusive myself, just looking for some reasoned answers. cheers.

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

PDN

Jimi, those verses still speak to me of God's purpose for Israel. Most, if not all, Bible commentators see Romans Chapters 9-11 as a parenthesis dealing with the role of Israel, whereas the rest of the letter deals with personal salvation.

wolfsbane

PDN wrote: »

Jimi, those verses still speak to me of God's purpose for Israel. Most, if not all, Bible commentators see Romans Chapters 9-11 as a parenthesis dealing with the role of Israel, whereas the rest of the letter deals with personal salvation.

The whole of the letter deals with personal salvation, that it is faith rather than the works of the law that brings salvation, and 9-11 deals with how Paul's argument accounts for Israel's condition.

He explains the difference between Israel that was solely natural, who relied on works, and Israel that was natural and spiritual, who relied on faith in Christ. But the promise was to Israel - had God failed? No, for He had elected some of this sinful nation to salvation, and it was to them the promises would be fulfilled. And not only to them, but He would also bring in a great number of the Gentiles as fellow-heirs.

Here His purpose is stated, and it is all about personal salvation, not national salvation nor special gifts and ministries:
Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?