How will they remove the M50 barriers?

G-Money

This might seem like a nerdy question but I'm curious as to how the NRA or whoever it is, are going to physically remove the entire toll plaza?

As far as I know, the entire thing is due to be completely gone by the end of August but it's hardly something that can be tore down overnight. I also don't know how they could remove it in pieces as you can see the roof stretches across all lanes. Plus I'm betting the surface underneath the booth's will have to be dug up or smoothed over to get rid of any cables or pipes or anything of that nature.

Are they going to redirect all the traffic off the M50 then back onto it further up?

Just curious as to how they're going to get rid of it.

listermint

grandmaster wrote: »

This might seem like a nerdy question but I'm curious as to how the NRA or whoever it is, are going to physically remove the entire toll plaza?

As far as I know, the entire thing is due to be completely gone by the end of August but it's hardly something that can be tore down overnight. I also don't know how they could remove it in pieces as you can see the roof stretches across all lanes. Plus I'm betting the surface underneath the booth's will have to be dug up or smoothed over to get rid of any cables or pipes or anything of that nature.

Are they going to redirect all the traffic off the M50 then back onto it further up?

Just curious as to how they're going to get rid of it.

I would imagine its probably a 2 lane at a time thing, as in remove two booths and the sub and above structure. Tar-mac then move onto the next. No Big deal they did manage to keep the redcow moving ish....

Slig

I'll do it, in fact I'd pay to do it!!!!
Excuse me mr.foreman wheres the keys to the bulldozer?:D

G-Money

I think you'll have to pick a number and join the queue (pun intended)

Tails142

I'd say the building and lanes will remain, they'll just remove the barriers and replace them with cameras

alias no.9

There's 4 lanes, but 6 booths (I think) in each direction. They'll probably keep the main structure and fit the ANPR cameras in it. They'll direct the four lanes through 4 booths, remove the first two booths, redirect two lanes through where the two booths had been removed, remove the next two booths, can you see where I'm going?

NinjaTruncs

They can't keep the structure as it is. It would be unsafe to travel throught it at 100Kph. What's the point in removing the barriers if you still have to slow down to get through it.

G-Money

That's true actually, I had forgotten about that. The plan is that you will be able to drive at motorway speeds without having to stop and pay the toll. That can't be done if the booths etc are still there.

Also, that's what the new e-flow system is for. Once that is running, there will be no need for toll booths.

http://eflow.ie/home/default.aspx

listermint

http://eflow.ie/home/default.aspx

Quote from site " Where? Near the current toll plaza which will be removed"

rebel.ranter

I'd say they'll reduce the number of lanes using a coned system diverting traffic into the outside booth .Then they will knock a couple of booths first in the middle, once these are done then the plaza does not need to be so wide. They coudl take their time doing the outside ones then.

Riskymove

grandmaster wrote: »

Just curious as to how they're going to get rid of it.

Dynamite...only way to go

DublinDilbert

Slig wrote: »

I'll do it, in fact I'd pay to do it!!!!
Excuse me mr.foreman wheres the keys to the bulldozer?:D

+1

It would actually be great if they would just let people who've spent weeks/months of the life queueing at it to have a crack at knocking it down

There must be at least 100,000 people, so everyone would have to do very little...

They've put up new gantries over the road between the existing plazza and the N3 blanch exit. I presumed these would be for the camera system.

G-Money

I think they should have some type of charity auction. People bid and if they win they get to swing a sledgehammer or something at the toll plaza to help take it down. Or drive a bulldozer into part of it or something.

All the money raised can go to a charity/charities. And by that, I don't mean it goes into the "NRA we need money to build a replacement toll booth" charity

alo1587

Quote from the e flow website;

"This system will enable you to pass through the toll at the legal speed limit, thereby eliminating driver stress and frustration."

That means 75mph if its motorway speed.It has to be completely removed in order for this to work.The toll will probably be replaced with an overhead gantry across the entire road with cameras hanging off it.

G-Money

The overhead gantry is already there I think, but I don't know if the cameras and stuff have been fitted. If you are heading northbound on the M50 about 500 yards past the toll booths you will see a large grey bridge looking thing over the top of the motorway covering all lanes. That's it.

Alun

The max speed limit on the M50 when all works are finished will be 100km/h.

alo1587

Haven't been up in Dublin in ages, haven't seen the new gantries yet, but anything would be better than the way the m50 was.The prices are typically rip off republic aren't they? They charge you 40 euro for just setting up an account, then 1 euro a month "administration fee" for the tag!

lynchie

grandmaster wrote: »

The overhead gantry is already there I think, but I don't know if the cameras and stuff have been fitted. If you are heading northbound on the M50 about 500 yards past the toll booths you will see a large grey bridge looking thing over the top of the motorway covering all lanes. That's it.

The cameras and anpr equipment has been there for the past month or two. Im sure they are probably running the system in trial mode at the moment so that there are no issues when going live.

Omcd

It'll be a historic event almost as momenteous as the Berlin Wall coming down, but d'ya think there'll be a scramble to grab bits of it as souvenirs though.... not me anyway, after this months bill for €120 I dont want to see sight nor sign of the thing again, and it's a shame the toll itself isn't going as well.

Those gantries with I presume a camera for each lane, I wonder if you would 'beat the system' if you're in the middle of changing lane under the gantry.

And I wonder if their technology reads square plates, I presume it does in order to read motorcycle plates.

The €40 to set up an account AFAIK is your first prepay credit to your troll account, in effect covering your first €40 worth of passes under the cameras (unless they do take some of it as an actual once off administration charge, but I dont think so).

fletch

Omcd wrote: »

The €40 to set up an account AFAIK is your first prepay credit to your troll account, in effect covering your first €40 worth of passes under the cameras (unless they do take some of it as an actual once off administration charge, but I dont think so).

Anyone know this for sure, on the site it says "Please note that your account will be charged the Initial Start-Up Amount of €40 in August 2008"

Scottie99

Maybe all of Ireland should descend on the barriers/booths with pick axes just like the fall off the Berlin Wall.........................momentum time in Irish history!:D

It was oppressive!

Slig

fletch wrote: »

Anyone know this for sure, on the site it says "Please note that your account will be charged the Initial Start-Up Amount of €40 in August 2008"

They should have a link from the Motor tax websites. If we are going paying for the same thing twice then they might as well have them linked somewhere.

Scottie99

Slig wrote: »

They should have a link from the Motor tax websites. If we are going paying for the same thing twice then they might as well have them linked somewhere.

It credit i.e prepay

DublinDilbert

Omcd wrote: »

And I wonder if their technology reads square plates, I presume it does in order to read motorcycle plates.

I think it was mentioned here, that they are only going to read front number plates, hence motor bikes will be free as they don't have one....

kingcurls

if there is no barriers and you can travel at 100kmph through them then how are ya supposed to pay like me for example i dont live in dublin so i dont have an eflow thing setup or even a creditcard...or foreign people coming down from the airport or even just driving around?? anyone know how they plan on making you pay??

preilly79

I wonder what will happen if the cameras can't read your license plate due to it being dirty, obscured etc?

Traumadoc

How do you pay if you do not have a credit card?
I only use it about 6 times a year.

Run_to_da_hills

preilly79 wrote: »

I wonder what will happen if the cameras can't read your license plate due to it being dirty, obscured etc?

There will be serious fines of up to e5000 for non standard and dirty / illegible number plates and the possibility of including it with penalty points. This is to co enside with with the introduction of unmanned Electronic toll charges and ANPR cameras (Automatic Numberplate recognition). Cops have taken it lightly up until this but will now have to take this more seriously.

At present there are 50 traffic corps cop cars driving around Dublin city fitted with ANPR cameras that can pick out any illegible plates in moving traffic.

This will be your typical unmanned toll plasa gantry dotted with RFID E-tag receivers, CCTV and ANPR cameras. NO car will escape being detected passing under one of these. All this data will be retained and made available to the US and European authorities.

L1011

Traumadoc wrote: »

How do you pay if you do not have a credit card?
I only use it about 6 times a year.

In cash in shops.

L1011

kingcurls wrote: »

if there is no barriers and you can travel at 100kmph through them then how are ya supposed to pay like me for example i dont live in dublin so i dont have an eflow thing setup or even a creditcard...or foreign people coming down from the airport or even just driving around?? anyone know how they plan on making you pay??

By fining you if you don't.

Omcd

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I think it was mentioned here, that they are only going to read front number plates, hence motor bikes will be free as they don't have one....

A fair few trucks have square plates on the front, I wonder will these be read or will they be made illegal ?

Run_to_da_hills

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I think it was mentioned here, that they are only going to read front number plates, hence motor bikes will be free as they don't have one....

If you look closely at the picture on my previous post you will see that the overhead gantries are equipped with frontal and rear facing cameras to catch front and rear number plates. One of the reasons motorcycles are exempt from E toills is because they do not have proper weather proof RFID E-toll plaza tags specifically designed for motorcycles, If they were availible I could guarantee bikes would be charged.

groomek

what about foreign cars?will cars coming down from the north and uk drivers be paying.how many foreigners drive without being registerd here in ireland,I presume there is no way of charging them for this service

Run_to_da_hills

groomek wrote: »

what about foreign cars?will cars coming down from the north and uk drivers be paying.how many foreigners drive without being registerd here in ireland,I presume there is no way of charging them for this service

No doubt this will be all harmonised in the near future between all european cars. Last week they made a start by passing a bill harmonising banned drivers between the UK NI and Ireland.

MAKE MY DAY

Alun wrote: »

The max speed limit on the M50 when all works are finished will be 100km/h.

Probably a stupid question but why is the speed limit being reduced to 100 kph down from 120 kph. I thought the point of barrier free tolling was to increase the traffic flow etc.. Also for a road to have Motorway status it should be 120kph or am I wrong ??

eringobragh

MAKE MY DAY wrote: »

Probably a stupid question but why is the speed limit being reduced to 100 kph down from 120 kph. I thought the point of barrier free tolling was to increase the traffic flow etc.. Also for a road to have Motorway status it should be 120kph or am I wrong ??

The EU AFAIK made them lower it due to it being an 'Urban Motorway'

Alun

MAKE MY DAY wrote: »

Probably a stupid question but why is the speed limit being reduced to 100 kph down from 120 kph. I thought the point of barrier free tolling was to increase the traffic flow etc.. Also for a road to have Motorway status it should be 120kph or am I wrong ??

It's to do with the narrow(er) lanes, nothing to do with the EU (ROFL). A motorway can have any speed limit it likes AFAIK.

L1011

groomek wrote: »

what about foreign cars?will cars coming down from the north and uk drivers be paying.how many foreigners drive without being registerd here in ireland,I presume there is no way of charging them for this service

They 'sell' the debt to a collection agency that has bought access to most of the foreign registration databases - who then hunt down the owner.

colm_mcm

what happens if you're driving an unregistered car on trade plates?

Run_to_da_hills

colm_mcm wrote: »

what happens if you're driving an unregistered car on trade plates?

Records will go back to the registered owner of the garage plates.

colm_mcm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Records will go back to the registered owner of the garage plates.

interesting.... so if I have an e tag, can I use it in multiple cars?

Seth Brundle

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

At present there are 50 traffic corps cop cars driving around Dublin city fitted with ANPR cameras that can pick out any illegible plates in moving traffic.

Recently there was a great hullabullu over the fact that two cars were getting APNR. I can't see how 48 more have received it without a sound.
Have you a source for the number?

Run_to_da_hills

kbannon wrote: »

Recently there was a great hullabullu over the fact that two cars were getting APNR. I can't see how 48 more have received it without a sound.
Have you a source for the number?

This was as of last year and it is four cars not two that have them on the pilot scheme. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2007/0509/1178623505616.html

colm_mcm wrote: »

interesting.... so if I have an e tag, can I use it in multiple cars?

You would have to check it out when applying for your E tag whether it is transferable on trade plates or not. The ANPR cameras will trace the trade plates back to the garage.

Seth Brundle

Fair enough.

DublinDilbert

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Records will go back to the registered owner of the garage plates.

I doubt they would be able to read the garage plate through the windscreen...

I didn't know they were going to image back and front of the vehicle, i guess that gives them 2 chances to read it, and possibly see if they agree... Also could possibly deal with one car driving really close behind another car...

I've seen ANP working before in toronto, but the cars had to slow to around 50kmph for it to work, at that time...

Its not a trivial task to get a vision system like this working, in all lighting conditions (24 hours/day), in all environmental conditions (snow/rain etc), with different size moving targets...

Also if your going to be charging money, the accuracy must be extremely high... Say you were able to read 99% of number plates, and 100,000 cars passed per day with no tag, you would miss 1,000 then these would have to be processed manually... I wouldn't say in reality you'd get anywhere near a 99% hit rate at....

mumhaabu

What happens to us poor chaps in the country who only ever visit the odd time? Will there still be a lane off to the side, or do we just get a bill in the post sent to the Registered owner of the Vehicle?

I've only gone though it once in 2002 heading from south from Northern Ireland, and ended up getting lost in confusion and drove the Whole C ring to the road to Wicklow, bear in mind a I had a female "navigating" :pac:

Run_to_da_hills

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I doubt they would be able to read the garage plate through the windscreen... ....

Placing garage plates behind windscreens may soon be a thing of the past as the glare from a wind screen would obviously make them illegible. I dont even know if they were ever officially allowed there in the first place. In the States and most other countries magnetic trade plates are the norm.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I didn't know they were going to image back and front of the vehicle, i guess that gives them 2 chances to read it, and possibly see if they agree... Also could possibly deal with one car driving really close behind another car...

Any gantry I have passed through on the continent and any pictures i have seen of them all have foreward and rear facing ANRP cameras, this would help rule out any error from dirty / damaged plates etc.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I've seen ANP working before in toronto, but the cars had to slow to around 50kmph for it to work, at that time..Its not a trivial task to get a vision system like this working, in all lighting conditions (24 hours/day), in all environmental conditions (snow/rain etc), with different size moving targets...

The system here will have teething problems and I cannot see them holding the 100KPH speed limit through this area. I can see them reducing this to 50 / 60 kph as people will only be distracted with the new system and the last thing wanted is for someone to do something stupid which could well happen in this country.

I can also see them enforcing a minimum distance between cars entering through them because the gantry cameras are set at an angle which would have difficulty reading them in bumper to bumper traffic.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Also if your going to be charging money, the accuracy must be extremely high... Say you were able to read 99% of number plates, and 100,000 cars passed per day with no tag, you would miss 1,000 then these would have to be processed manually... I wouldn't say in reality you'd get anywhere near a 99% hit rate at....

I could see the first few months of this system with a very high error rate. People will be taking advantages of the lead in period and pleading ignorant if caught. As time passes the authorities will become wiser to the tricks used and severe penalties are imposed for those trying to cheat.

mumhaabu wrote: »

What happens to us poor chaps in the country who only ever visit the odd time? Will there still be a lane off to the side, or do we just get a bill in the post sent to the Registered owner of the Vehicle?

For the moment you will be still able to use a cash lane however you will be penalised the full rate, this is to encourage more and more people to fit EFC Interoperable radio tracking devices to their cars and go cashless. I believe the barriers will be removed from these lanes but they will be instead dotted with ANPR cameras. http://www.nra.ie/News/PressReleases/htmltext,10469,en.html

mumhaabu wrote: »

I've only gone though it once in 2002 heading from south from Northern Ireland, and ended up getting lost in confusion and drove the Whole C ring to the road to Wicklow, bear in mind a I had a female "navigating" :pac:

My advice is for you to sack your female navigator and get a GPS and set your destination to "avoid all toll routes".

Sids Not

Its all a bit Big Brother to me.....the thing that i'm concerned about the most is the fact that your name and address and your credit card details will be given out to private companies via your reg plate...i'm thinking of the potential abuse of this system.:mad:.....so gone are the days when only the Gardai had this privledge...:(

Think i'll be paying as I go......;)

G-Money

If you use EazyPass instead of E-Flow, do you still have the concern about third party's having access to your credit card details etc?

L1011

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

For the moment you will be still able to use a cash lane however you will be penalised the full rate, this is to encourage more and more people to fit EFC Interoperable radio tracking devices to their cars and go cashless. I believe the barriers will be removed from these lanes but they will be instead dotted with ANPR cameras. http://www.nra.ie/News/PressReleases/htmltext,10469,en.htmlMy advice is for you to sack your female navigator and get a GPS and set your destination to "avoid all toll routes".

There has been no indication whatsoever of there being a 'cash lane' yet this is at least the second time you've said it. To pay cash you'll need to go to a pay point off-site, such as a newsagents of garage.

L1011

grandmaster wrote: »

If you use EazyPass instead of E-Flow, do you still have the concern about third party's having access to your credit card details etc?

You've already given them to a single third party (NTR) just as you'd give them to a single third part (eFlow) with their tags.

Every time you buy something with a credit card a 'private company' has your details ffs! Tinfoil hat paranoia on here.