At the risk of skirting the charter, Heller (US) is out.

Manic Moran

I know, no discussions on the merits of RKBA, but this was monumental enough to at least merit a mention in passing.

Washington DC's handgun ownership ban was thrown out by the US Supreme Court under the 'pre-existing right' to own a firearm. A swath of legal challenges to regulation nationwide are expected.

From the European perspective, apparently the decision has been welcomed by Italian shooters (Not sure why, but there you have it), and the resulting changes (or not) in the DC crime rates may be of interest to Europeans seeking to redress the comments of 'if people have guns, the crime rate will go up.'

Time will tell. I've just ordered a new rifle, to celebrate

NTM

Rovi

We've (the mods) been waiting for this one...

In line with the Shooting Charter and as MM has already noted, discussion of the RKBA is verboten here; such discussions might be better suited to the Legal forum, or perhaps Humanities. After Hours would surely be a good place to have a fight on the subject.

For the moment, we'll leave this one thread on the recent United States Supreme Court decision open (any others will be closed/merged), but be warned, any posts not dealing with the subject as it might bear on the shooting sports here in Ireland will be deleted.
Ongoing deviation from the Charter will most certainly lead to thread closure; and who knows what else, depending on particular circumstances.

Grizzly 45

Just glad that somome else opened the thread,and ran the Mod censure on this one.:D Still an all well done the US Supreme court.Common sense still occurs in this world.And as our leftist brothers say solidarity with our US Gunowner brothers.

patbundy

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just glad that somome else opened the thread,and ran the Mod censure on this one.:D Still an all well done the US Supreme court.Common sense still occurs in this world.And as our leftist brothers say solidarity with our US Gunowner brothers.

+1 :D

meathstevie

Don't know why this is seen as left/right issue unless you deem left to be all wishy washy PC wafflers. Personally I'd deem myself to be rather slightly left of center and quite liberal and I've no problem at all with gun ownership, on the contrary. I find it rather interesting that countries and nations with a fairly firm belief in civil liberties and a fairly decent human rights ethos nearly all have some form of legal civilian gun ownership while repressive dictatorships without fail have none

Grizzly 45

Dont read sooo much into MS.Just using a leftist expression doesnt make it a comment on a political stance.:)Would have to say tho your theory falls down in two places that pride themselves on being advocates on civil rights issues and gunownership.Namely the UK and California.

meathstevie

As far as I know the UK and California offer residents the possibility of legally held firearms:). Ok, they would be a good bit more restrictive than let's say Texas and Neveda but I don't fancy your chances approaching the Cuban and the Chinese constabulary for example looking for a gun licence unless you're a member of the almighty party.

Sparks

Still trying to see how this applies to sport shooting or the shooting sports in Ireland...

patbundy

sparks we call it plinking in this country,they just do it bigger in the states and its fun

Rovi

A full day and seven posts later, and still nothing on how this has any bearing on sport shooting in Ireland; this one's on borrowed time...

Three...

Two...

One...


Any minute now...

Manic Moran

What I think is interesting from the academic standpoint is that though the vast majority of firearms use in the US is for target shooting or hunting, the strongest legal arguments are being framed around self defense. The inevitable follow-on slew of cases has already started in State courts on those grounds.

It's almost a reversal of what you'd think. In Ireland or UK, the arguments are such as "So we can partake in Olympic sports". In California, if I want to participate in Camp Perry's competitions where AR15s are commonly used firearms, I'm relying on the outcome of a self defense case to change to law to allow me to own a suitable rifle for competition purposes.

Not sure what it means legally speaking, but I thought it an interesting observation.

NTM

Grizzly 45

Getting back on the Ireland thread..Well,simply if anyone anti says anymore that the 2nd amendment is a collective right applying to the military..you can now counter them with a factual statement that it is an individual right.As we are a tad slow to catch on over here on the anti side of things.:).

Intrestingly enough on a side ,but related to Irish media.I first heard this on Matt Coopers Toaday FM News break.This positive news was counterd by a dreary female news reader,adding in."That this was announced a week after a man in Kentucky shot up his workplace and killed seven co workers"Nothing like getting in the ol subliminal guns are baaad message in by the media eh?

MS
Liberal ownership in the UK.Semi autos Banned,pistols all types[apart from freaks with 12in barrels]Banned.Deal with a paranoid police force to try and aquire.Was REALfun back in the 80s when you were a Paddy living in London who wanted to bust a few Clays.God alone knows what it is like now.:(
Ka,semi autos banned,50Cals banned,shotguns convertible to over 3 shots restricted,mags over 10 rnds banned,certain types of bullets ,banned,air guns over a certain type banned,Blowguns,banned,most martial arts weaponary ,banned.Sex between two people of the same sex,totally legal!!:p

Cant say for Cuba,but in the PRC was offerd as are most Chinese Comrades the opportunity to go to a peoples firing range,where you can shoot for pretty handy money everything from good copies of Colt Woodsman pistols up to 120mm mortars.:eek:In between that the AK47,RPGs the whole lot.Pretty reasonable too 250USD for the mortar /RPG round.
EVERYONE in China belongs to the Party.BTW they also have a pretty good practical pistol team as well.

Anyways,getting back on topic.From my experiance we need to check our own facts on what we belive are restrictive and liberal gunownership countries around the world when comparing ourselves to them.Places I thought were liberal,are somtimes horrible to deal with,and vise versa.

Sparks

Well,simply if anyone anti says anymore that the 2nd amendment is a collective right applying to the military..you can now counter them with a factual statement that it is an individual right

First off, if anyone who is opposed to private firearms ownership (seriously, "anti"? I have six anti's, they're all my mother's sisters. Would people please actually come up with a word to describe those who do not agree with them that doesn't make us sound like a collection of petulent six-year-olds?) was to use the second amendment as an argument in Ireland, the answer is that we do not live in the US. Was before Heller, is now. We do not engage in debates on the subject because it's utterly irrelevant and introduces all manner of negative imagery and brings absolutely nothing positive to the table for us. It's the wrong argument.

As to the rest, I'm still waiting to see something in this that has any direct bearing on sports shooting or the shooting sports in Ireland. I have no problems with discussing Heller elsewhere, it's an interesting academic subject, but the fact is, we don't do RKBA discussions here because they always, without exception, descend into shouting matches between two entrenched and emotionally invested sides, and produce no new information and destroy communities. If you want that, we have links to places that do discuss this topic listed right there in the charter. And if you don't want to leave boards.ie, there's the Politics forum and After Hours and a few other places where you could start a thread on the topic.

Just.
Not.
Here.

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Sparks;56409224]First off, if anyone who is opposed to private firearms ownership (seriously, "anti"? I have six anti's, they're all my mother's sisters. Would people please actually come up with a word to describe those who do not agree with them that doesn't make us sound like a collection of petulent six-year-olds?)

Holophobes perhaps?:p[ People who suffer an irrational fear of inanimate objects.]

was to use the second amendment as an argument in Ireland, the answer is that we do not live in the US

Then counter with why do the Holophobes insist on bringing the "look what happens in the USA"arguement up all the time here to prove their points,if the USA isnt here?;)



.

Manic Moran

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Then counter with why do the Holophobes insist on bringing the "look what happens in the USA"arguement up all the time here to prove their points,if the USA isnt here?;)

He's got a point.

NTM

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Holophobes perhaps?:p[ People who suffer an irrational fear of inanimate objects.]

I know the word Grizzly. My request still stands :rolleyes:
(Seriously? You can't disagree with us and remain a rational human being, you must have some sort of new mental problem that's so new we have to invent a name for it? How arrogant is that?)

Then counter with why do the Holophobes insist on bringing the "look what happens in the USA"arguement up all the time here to prove their points,if the USA isnt here?;)

*ahem*

What I Said In The First Place wrote:

if anyone who is opposed to private firearms ownership ... was to use the second amendment as an argument in Ireland, the answer is that we do not live in the US. Was before Heller, is now.

Grizzly 45

(Seriously? You can't disagree with us and remain a rational human being, you must have some sort of new mental problem that's so new we have to invent a name for it? How arrogant is that?)

A term I belive coined by Sigmund Freud originally and used by Col Jeff Cooper[Here Sparks foams and gnashes teeth at computor screen:p].
So its hardly original and very new.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sparks

1) Freud was a wiener.
2) The word is Hoplophobe (as in hoplite).
3) The term was coined by Cooper, not Freud. It's modern in origin, and frat-boy in intent. If your argument is good, you don't need to ridicule your opponent, he does that to himself. Making up daft names to call him and trying to pretend they're academic or intellectual in origin does you no favours.

Grizzly 45

1] What has where Freud came from got to do with anything?He was Jewish as well,so is there somthing witty to be added to that?
2] Since Col Cooper was on talking terms with God when I was a youngster,I suppose that would qualify as a old term.
3]QED regarding most anti gun arguments
4]you wanted a polite term that didnt make them out to be anti guns.I gave a suggestion
5] Any good names for them yourself???

PS thanks for the spelling lesson

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

1] What has where Freud came from got to do with anything?He was Jewish as well,so is there somthing witty to be added to that?

No, Freud was a wiener. Not Vienna-er.

See?
(Seriously, I wouldn't have trusted the guy alone with my cat, let alone the inside of my head).

2] Since Col Cooper was on talking terms with God when I was a youngster,I suppose that would qualify as a old term.

We have words for people who are on talking terms with God, y'know.
And they're not generally nice.
We tend to not let them fly on airliners anymore either.
(And Cooper didn't get his face-to-face time with the deity of his choice until a year or two ago).

3]QED regarding most anti gun arguments
4]you wanted a polite term that didnt make them out to be anti guns.I gave a suggestion
5] Any good names for them yourself???

Yeah, generally I use their given names. Or "people who are opposed to hunting/target shooting/whatever" if I don't know the people involved. Generally, if you don't talk to the nutjobs on the opposing side of the table like they're the wingnuts that they are, then the uncommitted centerists tend to listen to your arguments more. For a centerist (read, 90% of the population), the ones doing the wierd stuff are the ones you shy away from and if you're going about banging on the table while ICABS talks about poor defenceless bunny rabbits, you're not doing very much good other than giving your arm a bit of a workout. (If you want to give your arm a workout, do it writing letters to your local TD asking him to help out your local club more, or to the Minister for Sport to get more funding for target shooting, or to the Minister for Justice to support the FCP more, or whatever).

PS thanks for the spelling lesson

I wouldn't have mentioned it, but you were talking about the word itself.

Grizzly 45

Sparks,
Weiner is German /Austrian for a person from Vienna.
Ein Weiner Wurstchen as you have illustrated is a Viennese sausage.Also referred to by our American friends as a Hot Dog,or to refer in frat house /US slang lingo a Weiner is a loser,sad act,wimp etc.
Freud WAS from Vienna,so this is an old US word play,and about as funny now as a case of flatulence in a space suit.

A fanatic???I guess my tounge in cheek description went by you of a very intelligent and courageous man.True enough,noctogenurians are not generally wanted on airlines for insurance reasons.

How about people who are opposed to private firearms ownership in general,as they [1] cannot pr wont comprehend why anyone would want such[2] suffer from irrational fear of inanimate objects.[3]Have no concept of the reality of firearms ownership,due to a over feed on hysterical and unrealistic media sensationalisim.
Yes I do try to talk to the 90%,however it is a job between the cuddly bunny wing nuts and the anti firearm hoplophobes.Put it like this;I will address them on unemotive terms,once they stop calling us Rambos,killers,sexual insecure potential schollyard killers.Gun nuts.I'll take a leaf out of our Gay community friends book and tack onto that AND PROUD OF IT.
As for work outs well,I think you dont mean personally.Seeing it was only you and me and 3 other people who responded to a cetrtain TV prog?

chem

OK im staying well out off what is going on above!

Just to try put things back on track here.

I have a mate in the PSNI. He told me one day he is allowed to carry a side arm for presonal protection 24/7. I laughed until he produced a glock17:eek: He also informed me they carry one up the spout at all times as there will be no time to cock if he finds himself in a bad spot.

Now I got around to thinking. With us all been friends now north and south I know alot of people who live in the south have applied to join the PSNI. Now what is the story for officers living in the south? Are they now open targets for someone with a chip on the sholder with the PSNI?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks,
Weiner is German /Austrian for a person from Vienna.

Yes, and if I was speaking German, you'd have a point...

A fanatic?

You said he spoke to and heard from God, not me. And to me, if you're talking to a deity and hearing responses, then it doesn't matter if that god is Jehovah, Allah, Ra or Loki, you're still a wingnut.

How about people who are opposed to private firearms ownership in general,as they [1] cannot pr wont comprehend why anyone would want such[2] suffer from irrational fear of inanimate objects.[3]Have no concept of the reality of firearms ownership,due to a over feed on hysterical and unrealistic media sensationalisim.

See, 1 and 3 make sense to me. It's 2 that doesn't and strikes me as unsupportedly arrogant and unhelpful, because it is perfectly rational to not support something you don't understand fully but which you perceive as a threat.
The challange is to convince people, not to tell them they're mentally defective purely on the basis that they don't agree with you.

As for work outs well,I think you dont mean personally.Seeing it was only you and me and 3 other people who responded to a cetrtain TV prog?

Yup. The centerists in our community are the same as in the larger community. They're the silent majority. Important lesson there, methinks.

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Sparks;56417173]Yes, and if I was speaking German, you'd have a point...

Point being you are misusing the word.It isan English/US derogotory slang.

You said he spoke to and heard from God, not me. And to me, if you're talking to a deity and hearing responses, then it doesn't matter if that god is Jehovah, Allah, Ra or Loki, you're still a wingnut.

Sparks,Sparks,Sparks...what will we do with you at all???:eek:

That was a tounge in cheek American expression/slang as well.If you say somone is on talking terms with God,it means they are very old!! See how the ol US slang can be confusing or have double meanings???Now Mr Spock...er sorry Sparks does that sound logical???:D:D

It's 2 that doesn't and strikes me as unsupportedly arrogant and unhelpful, because it is perfectly rational to not support something you don't understand fully but which you perceive as a threat.

Ahh! But Sparks WE in the Western World are supposed to accept many things without questions that we might find scary,or dont fully understand,without question.Usually by the very same people who advocate anti gun stances.So it would be simple common courtsey that THEY should accept by their own prnciples a different POV,or practise without question .

The challange is to convince people, not to tell them they're mentally defective purely on the basis that they don't agree with you

Well,irrspective of what it is called it is surely some form of mental problem if you do fear irrationally a animate or inanimate object? It does NOT make you mentally defective[your words].That would imply you are incapable of functioning in normal every day to day life and are best kept in the basket weaving house.There are plenty of people with mental problem who function every day normally.


.Yup. The centerists in our community are the same as in the larger community. They're the silent majority. Important lesson there, methinks.[/quote]

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Point being you are misusing the word.It isan English/US derogotory slang.

Yes, and it's used here in a derogatory slang sense in order to make a joke about Freud.

That was a tounge in cheek American expression/slang as well.If you say somone is on talking terms with God,it means they are very old!

Ah, now that's a new one on me. I've been listening to too many americans with... a more straightforward use of the expression.

Ahh! But Sparks WE in the Western World are supposed to accept many things without questions that we might find scary,or dont fully understand,without question.

We are? Says who? And about what? Last time I checked, anytime we encounter something we find scary or don't fully understand, we don't ever accept it without question. Hell, Joe Duffy would be out of a job if we did...

Usually by the very same people who advocate anti gun stances.So it would be simple common courtsey that THEY should accept by their own prnciples a different POV,or practise without question .

Ah, don't be asking for something from them that we wouldn't give ourselves (and no, we wouldn't give it - how many times have you seen us say things about the Gardai or DoJ in here that are nearly word-for-word identical to what we complain about when ICABS or ICANN say them about us?

Well,irrspective of what it is called it is surely some form of mental problem if you do fear irrationally a animate or inanimate object?

Sure, if you fear it irrationally. But many people would argue that they don't fear the tool, but what people do with it. And we're getting too close to the whole RKBA argument there, so careful now.
The point is that you've not proven that they're being irrational, you're just saying they're being irrational. Not the same thing. You're just not seeing their side of things. And that's not a good thing.

There are plenty of people with mental problem who function every day normally.

Now there's a dangerous topic for discussion!