Morality = shame?

Akrasia

Christians often talk about an 'innate sense of morality'

I propose that this is not a divine sense, but a mortal sense, and it's called "Shame"

For the same reasons a chubby person is often embarrassed in front of someone more physically fit than them, a deviant person is often embarrassed in front of a more conformist person. We have a desire to fit into the norms of our peer groups, and sometimes we call that sense 'morality'

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

Christians often talk about an 'innate sense of morality'

I propose that this is not a divine sense, but a mortal sense, and it's called "Shame"

For the same reasons a chubby person is often embarrassed in front of someone more physically fit than them, a deviant person is often embarrassed in front of a more conformist person. We have a desire to fit into the norms of our peer groups, and sometimes we call that sense 'morality'

Oh I see, so conscience doesn't really exist. Thanks for the enlightenment. :rolleyes:

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

Oh I see, so conscience doesn't really exist. Thanks for the enlightenment. :rolleyes:

whats the difference between shame and conscience?

People often only tend to find a conscience after their activities have been exposed (when they're shamed) A conscience in a christian sense is the shame that you believe you have disobeyed god.

Akrasia

BTW, I'm saying morality is a sense of shame when you've done something that society deems to be wrong, but I'm not saying that all shame is as a result of immoral actions. You can be ashamed of things that you have no control over (poor results in an IQ test, or an embarrassing medical condition)

I'm equating the emotion of shame with the 'innate morality' that christians claim we have.

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

whats the difference between shame and conscience?

People often only tend to find a conscience after their activities have been exposed (when they're shamed) A conscience in a christian sense is the shame that you believe you have disobeyed god.

When we are faced with a choice, our conscience lets us know whether the choices are good or bad. If we make a good choice, there is no shame. If we make a bad choice there should be shame (not sure if shame is the right word). Remorse might be a better choice.

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

BTW, I'm saying morality is a sense of shame when you've done something that society deems to be wrong, but I'm not saying that all shame is as a result of immoral actions. You can be ashamed of things that you have no control over (poor results in an IQ test, or an embarrassing medical condition)

I'm equating the emotion of shame with the 'innate morality' that christians claim we have.

Morality to my mind is knowing the difference between right and wrong. It has nothing to do with shame. Shame only comes when we choose wrong.

all the stars

Akrasia wrote: »

We have a desire to fit into the norms of our peer groups, and sometimes we call that sense 'morality'

Never fitted in. had no desire to. still dont. pass....

AtomicHorror

Morality is subjective, based upon the value we place on various things we percieve. It is also strongly influenced by our capacity for empathy, the development of our theory of mind. It is enforced (by our selves, upon ourselves) not only by shame but by all of our emotions. Our tendency to align our judgement with that of others is something which enhances our survival and so socially-connected subjective moralities will tend to coincide at various significant points.

There is no grand objective moral axis hanging somewhere in the sky. Putting aside for a moment how obviously false objective morality is, if there were such a thing moral conflict would not be so very prevalent.

robindch

"Morality", as far as I can understand it, is the word used to describe the inherently subjective process of determining a course of action based largely upon one's understanding of the expectations of other people. And public shame is certainly a part of that, but not all of it, since many 'moral' systems include public or ritualized displays of relatively low-effort co-operative behavior too.

It differs from 'ethical' which seems to refer more to a process of determination guided by one's own sense of right versus wrong, which is based largely upon our evolutionary predisposition to a very high levels of long-term social co-operation.

Consequently, rules for "ethical" behavior are likely to be fairly basic, and fairly universal -- don't steal, don't kill and so on. While "moral" behavior includes rules which vary randomly and wildly from culture to culture, with each culture typically believing that its own rules are obvious, universal and immutable, or should be.

Being culturally-based, the concept of "morality" is open to control by charismatic leaders who have a long history of declaring one activity or another "immoral", usually an activity carried out by some minority outgroup (gays, people who eat pork, beef or shrimps, are able to wear short skirts and so on). By doing so, they appeal to the innate tendency towards group cohesion that all humans have, and, of course, incidentally providing the leaders themselves with greater political power if the declaration of immorality is well-chosen or well-presented. These declarations typically do not involve calls to do something positive, and far more often, simply involve thinking something, or doing something negative -- a relatively cheap exercise.

Zombrex

Akrasia wrote: »

Christians often talk about an 'innate sense of morality'

I propose that this is not a divine sense, but a mortal sense, and it's called "Shame"

For the same reasons a chubby person is often embarrassed in front of someone more physically fit than them, a deviant person is often embarrassed in front of a more conformist person. We have a desire to fit into the norms of our peer groups, and sometimes we call that sense 'morality'

As AH and Robin suggest, I think it is a little more complicated than simply "Shame"

Humans have evolved as social creatures, and part of this is that we have evolve a rather complex and versatile emotional system for determining courses of actions, what we would call basic morality. This instinctive emotional system is expanded upon by our higher intelligence in the form of social and cultural norms. Using your example, all humans (or the vast majority) possess the ability to feel ashamed at something, but what makes us ashamed can depend on the cultural context that the person finds themselves in.