Hello, long time lurker, first time poster (After Tells article enclosed)

NoHassFatAss

I've been reading this site for quite a while. There has been a recent negativity, almost prejudice towards newbies. Let me give an example: I reached out for help via PM to a poster (the reason I opened an account), I had him, a mod and someone else accusing me of been DBC (a known trouble maker). This could be very detrimental to this site as one of the attractions for me has always been the community and friendships that exist here.
I hope this post will mend some of those fences and prove that not every new poster is out to cause trouble. I also hope to prove the newbies have something to contribute,

About me:
I've played live tournaments for a while with moderate success and I am contemplating making a move into cash. My time towards poker has become very restricted, however my love for the game makes me want to play. I feel at this time cash is my only option as to have a successful tournament could take up a lot of your time (which I don't have anymore).

I've always enjoyed debating new ideas regarding poker with mates and I enjoy trying different styles.
I would like to share an article I am writing, while a rough draft I think it gets the points across I am trying to make. It is geared purely towards live tournament play, I have no idea if the same observations would be true of cash games. If people want to say hi or leave any feedback that would be great. I hope to continue learning from this site and it's excellent posters. I hope you enjoy it..........



After Tells


Note: Throughout this article I will be referring to two players, player A (PA) and player H (PH) who are my fictional representation of a poker player.

1.0 Introduction

First let me state this it is all my own opinion from my experience and observation as a poker player.

Big buy in or deep structured tournaments are as much about stamina as they are about poker skill. The longer you survive the more critical your decisions become. While a lot of value exists early on in tournaments, it’s the middle stages that you can really profit from. The reason for this is because players generally fall into 2 categories at this stage

• PA will get tired and lose concentration and miss the simple things happening around him – reasons for this may be tiredness, unfit, drunk, hungry, personal issues etc
• PA’s observation skills will heighten, just like when a footballer practices free kicks, penalties etc. Observing will becomes second nature almost as natural as breathing – reasons may include fit, healthy, good mental strength, determination etc

In the latter stages of a MTT (2 tables out) players start to get a second wind, their adrenaline is kicking in and they start to focus again. Even the most unfit players out there will generally pull it together. At this point the skill factor lessons and it’s more about timing, situations and a good variance.

2.0 What is an after tell?

A high percentage of poker players don’t realise that just because the pot has been awarded, doesn’t mean the hand is over. The good and/or talented players will still be watching, they will be looking out in case cards flash or are accidentally or deliberately exposed. PH will be listening intently in case PA decides to tell someone what he had this hand, last hand, 10 hands ago etc. After a pot is awarded PA tends to let his guard down. He stops concentrating and may unintentionally do things that he would not do during a hand. Why you might ask? Well this is very simple; it is quite unnatural for PA (and people in general) to suppress the nature instincts of his body which are to give off signals to his true feelings. To elaborate people like ease and comfort. When they are happy they find it hard to contain joy, when they are hurt it is tough to hide the discomfort. Just because we are now poker players does not mean we can suddenly cover up years of conscious and unconscious emotion, whether this is through facial, vocal or body expressions.

So what do I mean by an after tell? An after tell is an action a player takes after a pot is awarded. For example when PA check raises the river and everyone folds – PA may let a big ‘sigh’ out of him. During the hand PA would never reveal genuine emotion but after the hand PA relaxes and lets this unconscious breath out of him. As mentioned above most players won’t notice this. To be successful PH needs to pick up on this, he may/may not use it in general play, but it will give him a better understanding of PA and his game. If PH can note things like this he will be able to add to his poker arsenal.

Let’s assume PH has picked up on one of PA after tells from the following hand

On the river the board read Ah Ad Jc 6s 2d. PA bets and everyone folds, PA slides his hand towards the muck and doesn’t say anything. This action PH picked up means he is likely to be strong. Later on PA confirms he was strong and tells PH he had JJ (PA is of good character and we believe him).

Now here’s the part that takes some practice and skills. PH has to replay the above hand in his head. PH has to try and remember how the betting went; did PA do anything with his chips, hand, etc during this hand? Maybe PA just stayed expressionless. Did PA speak, did PA look uncomfortable, and did PA recheck his cards? Once PH is confident he’s picked up on this he has to act on it. Next time PA plays a hand PH has to recollect the actions from the above hand and compare them to the present hand.
People are creatures of habit, especially in tournaments where one of the top skills is exploiting value from weaker players from you decent to strong hands.

Finally an air of caution – quite often after tells may mean absolutely nothing as it is player dependant. It could simply be some yob who can’t stop himself shaking at the end of the hand as he’s never experienced gambling, people, sunshine etc. It’s your job as a poker player to be observant enough to pick up on whether or not these actions are genuine and have meaning.

3.0 After Tells


“Acting strong normally signifies weakness, acting week normally signifies strength”

The above statement is a good rule of thumb when playing in large fields that tournaments offer. However I’ve observed the complete opposite to be true once a ‘hand is over’.

Note: The following is based on an assumption that the player has been awarded the pot without showdown

3.1 Player looking back at his cards

When a player looks back at his cards and shakes his head this is usual a sign he was bluffing. Why players do this is beyond me – they’ve probably watched too much Phil Ivey on TV. They then add the little shake pretending to be unhappy about the outcome. In reality the shake of the head means weakness. If a player during the hand shakes his head, you would assume he is acting weak but is really strong, well the opposite is really true here.

3.2 Player mucking his hand

If a player mucks his hand but then starts talking about the hand once saying he had a house, straight etc etc it’s normally a good indicator he was bluffing. Like wise when a player says I had nothing after the hand, it’s a good indicator they had a strong hand. Why? Well if the player wanted you to know what they had they’d show you.
I’ve only seen one instance of this when the player was telling the truth about his hands and that was Daniel Negreanu. He seems to have clued on to this fact and will often muck his hand and then say exactly what he had “throwing a curve ball”.

3.3 Player mucking his hand and says nothing

Player mucks his hand in good time, looks confident and says nothing; this usually indicates a strong hand. Player doesn’t want attention and is quickly trying to move onto the next hand. These are generally very competent players that are aware that just because the hand is over, doesn’t mean people have stopped observing.

3.4 Player delays before mucking his hand

Be careful here as it can indicate two things. It can indicate a very strong hand that he wants to show and vice versa it can indicate a bluff he wants to show. Usually a smirk with a delay indicates a bluff, whereas a confused look or no change of expression with the delay indicates the near nuts.

3.5 Player rakes the pot in quickly

If a player rakes in a pot quickly it is usually a sign of relief, relief that he’s gotten away with one when he really shouldn’t have (Chris Moneymaker HU Vs Sami Farha, 2003 WSOP). An extension of this would be if the player quickly mucks his cards after all opponents fold.

3.6 Player mucks his hand and glances away from the table*

If a player mucks his hand and glances away from the table this is usually a very strong indication that he was holding a monster, normally the nuts or 2nd nuts. Glancing away is usually a sign of frustration, either at himself or due to not extracting maximum value.

*This would be a good time for you to stick the needle into the player on as he is probably close to tilting which you should use to maximise any situation which immediately develops afterwards

Lazare

Excellent first post. Welcome to the forum.

Ste05

Welcome aboard, nice post.

Just be warned if you stay for a while you might just end up like this guy:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055321924

JP Poker

welcome to the forum. Hope to see u at the felt

Mellor

Welcome, nice first post,
don't mind the hostile attitude to noobs, its just a few jokers been about lately, must be the weather,

One observation, once a player understands the above tells, they can often manipulate them, if they are a good player that is

pocketdooz

Nice one NoHass,

Well written post, some good points.

Observation is something I need to work on more now I've a decent grip on some other aspects of the game. Hope to hear more from you.

Get In There

Good post OP, enjoyed reading it.

Two quick questions-

What do you make of people that check in the dark after they have called your preflop raise OOP? To me, they're trying to get inside my head so I like to counter-act that by betting in the dark after they check.

When players are trying to get tells off you, ie: staring you down, how do you find yourself behaving generally?

Silly questions really but you seem pretty consicous of tells so I'm interested in your answers!

Lplate

Welcome. Very good read. Hope there is more to come.

Caboose

Very nice post. I'm so player A! Thanks for pointing out a few things to work on.

WP

C

pocketdooz

.

jbravado

Good first post. Welcome.

Lurker1977

Nice post

Reminds me of a Tommy Angelo paragraph

Tommy Angelo wrote:

Sixth Street.

Sixth street starts when the betting stops. Sixth street is when players relax, which is why it pays not to. Reciprocality.

Sixth street is when statues become fountains. While playing the turn and river, the players are stoic and unflinching, doing their very best to give up as little information as possible. And then, as soon as the betting stops, their parts start moving, they start broadcasting information about their thoughts, their feelings, and their cards. Sixth street is when players let their guard down, as if all of a sudden it's safe to reveal classified secrets to the enemy. It's like they don't even know the war is still going on.

In the stream of information, sixth street is a reliable place to pan for gold.

smurph

edit,
maybe he is real meh,

good post

DeadParrot

Nice article and welcome.

cooker3

why is he banned?

zuutroy

He was The_Chopper

Lafortezza

Yeah, it was The_Chopper. Good article tho.

smurph

I didn't want to sound negative, but I have read alot of what the op posted in various books.....

It is amazing the amount of information people will give away about their holdings after the pot is over, im guilty of it myself. Guard is down, your collecting your chirpy chips, life is good, then the subtle little question is asked and the suddenly your spouting out information about your cards etc., hand, yuck yuck.

It was a well put together piece though.

Mellor

I take back my nice first post comment, well the first part

YULETIRED

Does anyone see the irony in this. RIcky posts probably his best post ever, in fact one worth stickying into your knowledge base and he gets banned......At least let him post a few more of these yokes....If hes trolling it's damn good material and not at all comparable to DBC or that gack Solksjaer.

Gillybean72

Maybe its a case of new identity new start.. and it IS a good article.
Welcome back Ricky... if they unban you that it.

jbravado

Why ban him? I dont get it. If Ricky feels he can offer something moere productive as an unknown whats the problem?

zuroph

with one post, i dont see any bannable offence, surely its up to each person if they wanted to change their account on here? i know he lied about who he was, but that doesnt matter, he wasnt banned in the first place, the_chopper account is still active.
I could log on tomorrow and post as a new username, its not bannable.

as for the article, well written, but if you didnt know this info already, you musnt play live much. Although, it is often needed to see it in writing to stop yourself from doing it!
id like a per-tells article, IE stuff someone does between getting their cards, and their turn, that might suggest strength or weakness, intention to raise, fold etc. A bit more of an individual science i'd say though. ( I did manage to put smurph on aces before she acted in waterford though )

a-k-47

copy and paste is great

Wreck

Ok I'm open to correction on this, but having multiple accounts is not allowed, and as far as I am aware it is a bannable offence. And given the current climate of the forum with all the DBC ****e I personally feel that this banning is perfectly justifiable.

Rb

Wreck wrote: »

Ok I'm open to correction on this, but having multiple accounts is not allowed, and as far as I am aware it is a bannable offence. And given the current climate of the forum with all the DBC ****e I personally feel that this banning is perfectly justifiable.

Indeed, one account per person. Kind of funny how he announced to the forum he was going to make it as dramatic as possible, then sets up another account and pm's the mods saying its him and expecting things to just be fine.

As the mods told him, he has to stand by what he's posted here. The odd "gimmick" account won't get your original account banned, but stirring crap and then abandoning the account and going and creating a new one in an effort to fool the members of the forum will certainly do the job.

Tar.Aldarion

Having multiple accounts is not strictly disallowed. When an admin thought I had two he offered to just merge them if I wanted. It is only an offence if somebody was banned from a forum and made a new account to circumvent the ban or uses it to back the other account up in a thread etc. I don't think the chopper was banned from poker so the second account seems fine to me. Just wanted anonymity.

zuroph

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=236227
we've lost him to 2+2. woe betide.

Lafortezza

There were discussions between the mods/smods and the OP about the double accounts. A decision was made and I'm not going to go into the details. In my opinion the op was given a choice and chose not to post anymore under any username.
Nothing more to be gain from this thread continuing.