Proposal to spend 300 million to "kick start clean energy"

probe

McCain proposes $300 million to “kick start clean energy”

Make that $30 billion, and you might get somewhere in lots of green energy technologies. The US is spending over $2 billion a week on the fruitless oil power grab in Iraq, which has yielded a net reduction in oil output from that region and the best part of a million people dead.

Where money could be spent - one example from last week’s Economist newspaper is geothermal energy. Many/most parts of the world have geothermal energy potential, which will work day and night in all weather conditions. It just needs EGS investment (engineered geothermal system) to get it on the road.

Use oil drilling technology to dig two pipelines 3,000 M into the ground. Pump cold water down pipe one until it reaches rock which is constantly at about 200C, and in due course steam should spew out of the second neighbouring hole which could run a power station + providing energy for an urban community heating (space heat + hot water) system. A billion or two in R&D (a week’s “war” in Iraq funding) could provide the technology – (and so what if it takes a few more billion?), and one might have something sustainable out of it, which could have wide application across the world, forever and a day.

What are these so called “politicians” waiting for?

.probe

The story: http://www.letemps.ch/template/economie.asp?page=9&article=234844
The Economist article: http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11565660&
Casualties in Iraq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

bonkey

probe wrote: »

Make that $30 billion, and you might get somewhere in lots of green energy technologies.

Tosh.

If you got somewhere in terms of green energy tech, then you'd make so much from the market that any "bonus" from the government would be irrelevant.

Seriously...McCain's offer was basically "build a significnatly better battery and we'll make you rich". Build a significantly better battery, and notebook/mobile phone manufacturers will make you rich. Automotive manufacturers will make you rich.

The incentive is already there. This is just election-spiel to grab some headlines.

probe

bonkey wrote: »

Tosh.

If you got somewhere in terms of green energy tech, then you'd make so much from the market that any "bonus" from the government would be irrelevant.

Seriously...McCain's offer was basically "build a significnatly better battery and we'll make you rich". Build a significantly better battery, and notebook/mobile phone manufacturers will make you rich. Automotive manufacturers will make you rich.

The incentive is already there. This is just election-spiel to grab some headlines.

While I agree with you on the last sentence of your posting, the experimental work involving EGS is risky research which involves a large amount of capital. There are no large players in the EGS market. The oil companies won't diversity into it because it would, if it works to plan, devalue their trillion dollar investment in oil extraction resources, and make their proven oil reserves less valuable than they otherwise might be.

This would mean a big hit to their P&L (revaluation of reserves and fixed assets), which would screw up bonuses and share option values. Oil company directors aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by travelling along this path, anytime soon. The scarcer and more important oil becomes, the more powerful the oil interests become.

Governments have had to traditionally fund these areas of research, until such time as the concept and technology gets into the proven category. It is a very different task to developing new battery technology or a new more productive windmill design. The existing players in the market will do that themselves, to compete.

.probe

bonkey

probe wrote: »

While I agree with you on the last sentence of your posting, the experimental work involving EGS is risky research which involves a large amount of capital. There are no large players in the EGS market. The oil companies won't diversity into it because it would, if it works to plan, devalue their trillion dollar investment in oil extraction resources, and make their proven oil reserves less valuable than they otherwise might be.

This would mean a big hit to their P&L (revaluation of reserves and fixed assets), which would screw up bonuses and share option values. Oil company directors aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by travelling along this path, anytime soon. The scarcer and more important oil becomes, the more powerful the oil interests become.

Governments have had to traditionally fund these areas of research, until such time as the concept and technology gets into the proven category. It is a very different task to developing new battery technology or a new more productive windmill design. The existing players in the market will do that themselves, to compete.

You seem to be ignoring that McCain is proposing paying the first successful researcher. That means for anyone getting into the game, the risks and potential big hits to P&L bottom line are all still there.

If they find a solution, they're rich whether or not McCain gifts them. If they don't find a solution, McCain's offer gives them nothing.

If McCain was serious, he'd announce billions in funding for the research - successful or not. Offering to pay the first-past-the-post winner is worthless.

Kama

Big Oil is not your friend, and is making record profits off the scarcity of oil.
Why ruin a perfectly good scam? They are well-positioned due to technical expertise to introduce geothermal energy after milking their current cashcow, why not hold the tech back a while? Doesn't require any malevolent conspiracy, dripfeeding the market is sound business sense.

Otoh, shallow geothermal is proven, implementable, and has much lower capital costs.

probe

bonkey wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring that McCain is proposing paying the first successful researcher. That means for anyone getting into the game, the risks and potential big hits to P&L bottom line are all still there.

If they find a solution, they're rich whether or not McCain gifts them. If they don't find a solution, McCain's offer gives them nothing.

If McCain was serious, he'd announce billions in funding for the research - successful or not. Offering to pay the first-past-the-post winner is worthless.

Indulge me while I dwell on the big picture a bit more….. McCain’s platform involves the continuation of the Bush/Cheney etc “war on Iraq” – ie a failed oil grab which costs them around $2 billion a week*. They won’t succeed in the oil grab.

The West Coast of the US (from Alaska to Mexico and beyond) is bubbling with easy to tap on-shore geothermal energy – just as accessible as it is in Iceland. No increase in food prices arising from the exploitation of same. No energy hungry fertilizers (mostly made from hydrocarbons) and other processing energy costs. The US simplistically thinks it wants to reduce its dependency on “foreign oil”, when they really need to modernise their planning, energy and transportation infrastructure. As does every other country in Europe. In this respect, Switzerland has been far ahead of the pack, but even the Helvetii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetii) have more to do!

.probe

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War.