Article on Gaming Law - Resources?

I am currently in the process of writing an article on the current gaming laws in Ireland and the legal ramifications of the White Paper currently working it's way through the Oireachtas.

I wasn't going to bother asking here but I suppose there is no harm. If anyone knows of any good resources for this or if any of the poker organisers (JP, Carfax, even the established room managers) would have any perspective on issues within the industry right now that would benefit this work then I would appreciate them.

Mods, hope this is ok here. Will probably re-produce this in the Legal and Gambling forums.

PM's are ideal but posting here equally good. All reasoned opinions welcome as any good perspective may help me in forming a tighter thesis. I am in the middle of researching all the relevant case law so have not begun the actual drafting, hence asking for this assistance now.

Thanks in advance.

Lao Lao

I'm afraid that I wouldn't be help to asisst in any contributions needed for this but I would very much like to read the final draft when finished if that's possible?

Cheers

dK1NG

Deleted User wrote: »

I am currently in the process of writing an article on the current gaming laws in Ireland

This was something I pondered soing a while back, along with the tax implications of poker earnings, but didnt have the time cos of my phd.

Best of lcuk with it; if u need any help send me a PM.

carfax

PM sent. If I can help at all with the content no prob.

hotspur

Well you're not going to find many resources beyond the case law and acts themselves, you should read the 2000 interdepartmental review of the gaming and lotteries acts 1956-86 ( http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf/Files/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf ) I know a lot about the area and gambling regulation internationally, and I think we are introducing elements that I strongly recommended during the recent study. If you have any specific questions then fell free to PM me.

Mr. Flibble

Did you get anything written Kayroo?

Honestly, not a word written yet. Some personal issues have kept me quite busy but I should be cracking into this as soon as it's all sorted. I want to get it over and done with before the end of September though so I will get onto it.

Mr. Flibble

Will you be going into the areas of private members clubs running casinos? Or anything about online gambling companies based in Ireland?

I know you were looking for answers, but I've only questions...
If you come across the answer to any of them in your research (of if you know hotspur) it'd be great if you could let me know what you find.

Is the sole way a group can run poker games for profit in Ireland by running as a private member's club?

Have any of these clubs been shut down due to legal reasons? I heard of a club or two getting raided but never found out what was the reason behind it.

Would it be any less legal for a private member club to accept bets over the internet? Some clubs run a remote gaming system for roulette games. Do you know do they just do this under the cloak of the private member club, or do they use an offshore license for the remote gaming?

What is the white paper you speak of trying to do? Is it available on the net for reading?

dK1NG

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

What is the white paper you speak of trying to do? Is it available on the net for reading?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055333295

@Kayroo, is it a journal article you're writing, or a thesis? What angle you approaching it from?

Mr. Flibble

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Will you be going into the areas of private members clubs running casinos?

This really is going to be at the heart of my work. Mostly the essay will be on the legislation the Government should introduce. Actually the recent report released by the Casino Committee in the Dept. of Justice (here) covers much of what I will be looking at.

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Or anything about online gambling companies based in Ireland?

As many players have said to me, and as numerous experts in this field have commented, Ireland has an opportunity to position itself as the leading centre for basing international online gaming operations. With a common law jurisdiction, an English speaking population and a very IT literate workforce Ireland has the opportunity to put in place strict regulatory regimes which would offer legitimisation to the online poker and gaming community which it will need if it is to diversify and survive the recent scandals which have plagued the industry.

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Is the sole way a group can run poker games for profit in Ireland by running as a private member's club?

Casino games are totally illegal and it is only through legal loopholes and official headturning that casinos have been allowed to exist in Ireland. Poker is, under the terms of the Act, technically considered "gaming". Under any new proposals by the Government this would seriously affect independent companies and smaller casinos as it is almost certain that the regulatory regime would be such that it would exclude a large number of the current poker operators from the market. It is doubtful that the Government will get any Act passed that does not at least consider the prevalence of "pub games" and any loophole left there gives leeway to medium sized operators. However "bricks and mortar" casinos can expect a very large upheaval.

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Have any of these clubs been shut down due to legal reasons? I heard of a club or two getting raided but never found out what was the reason behind it.

As far as I am aware, and this is without any really in depth research as I have not really kicked into this yet, if the Gardai felt like it they could close the Fitz, Jackpot and Sporting Emporium right now if they felt like it. They are all clearly in breach of the Act and the "private members club" loophole which casinos borrowed from the Irish Film Centre could quite easily be got around by a determined prosecution these days. From a pragmatic point of view this is just not going to happen. Local casinos will always be at the mercy of local feelings towards it as the local Gardai are perfectly within their rights to look into gaming activities. This area is so grey as to be open to infinite interpretations, which is partly the reason a new legal regime is probable and necessary.

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Would it be any less legal for a private member club to accept bets over the internet? Some clubs run a remote gaming system for roulette games. Do you know do they just do this under the cloak of the private member club, or do they use an offshore license for the remote gaming?

I have no idea yet. Will look into it. Haven't read the White Paper myself yet, have to know the existing law before we can comment on the new law. Like I said I am doing mostly background stuff now when I have the time. The White Paper comes closer to the end of the research period. To be honest I haven't even been able to find a copy on the net but I am sure the GPO will be good as always.

dK1NG

dK1NG wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055333295

@Kayroo, is it a journal article you're writing, or a thesis? What angle you approaching it from?

Will be writing it with a mind to be printed in a journal and I may expand it into a thesis if I feel it warrants it.

My approach is fairly mechanical so far, what is the law, what problems the law causes and what should be done to fix them. There is really not much written on this area. There is a good essay on "Hidden Casinos" by Catherine Allen but it was written before the poker boom and really focuses on the casino element and does not take into account the dichotomy in Government policy on "gaming" and other forms of gambling which are state subsidised such as horse and dog racing.

hotspur

Deleted User wrote: »

As many players have said to me, and as numerous experts in this field have commented, Ireland has an opportunity to position itself as the leading centre for basing international online gaming operations. With a common law jurisdiction, an English speaking population and a very IT literate workforce Ireland has the opportunity to put in place strict regulatory regimes which would offer legitimisation to the online poker and gaming community which it will need if it is to diversify and survive the recent scandals which have plagued the industry.

I disagree with this. The chief motivator is tax, this is why the remote gambling firms are licensed in the places they are. There is nothing in Ireland that Britain doesn't have and yet they have totally failed to produce an attractive package to get operators to relocate there due to the level of tax that Gordon Brown introduced for remote gambling firms. Remote gambling firms operating in Europe do not need legitimisation, the only reason any firm would leave, say, the Isle of Man or Alderney would be lower tax, and that's not realistically going to happen. Both of those jurisdictions are on Britain's white list for advertising for example and it would take unfair discrimination against firms operating from there to produce any change.

As for the firms operating with Kahnawake or Costa Rica licences they enjoy the lack of strict regulatory control and if it came to them feeling they had to be operating in some jurisdiction like Britian's white listed ones then they would choose the one with the lowest tax. I think it is very unlikely that many online gambling firms would relocate their license to Ireland without it being financially advantageous due to tax reasons. Remember the IT and customer service side are a different issue and there is no problem operating these aspects in areas different to where the firm is based for licensing and tax purposes. We already have numerous online gambling firms operating here for the former but I would be surprised if we produced an attractive enough tax to undercut the tax haven islands to incentivise much relocation for the latter.

hotspur

hotspur wrote: »

I disagree with this. The chief motivator is tax, this is why the remote gambling firms are licensed in the places they are. There is nothing in Ireland that Britain doesn't have and yet they have totally failed to produce an attractive package to get operators to relocate there due to the level of tax that Gordon Brown introduced for remote gambling firms. Remote gambling firms operating in Europe do not need legitimisation, the only reason any firm would leave, say, the Isle of Man or Alderney would be lower tax, and that's not realistically going to happen. Both of those jurisdictions are on Britain's white list for advertising for example and it would take unfair discrimination against firms operating from there to produce any change.

As for the firms operating with Kahnawake or Costa Rica licences they enjoy the lack of strict regulatory control and if it came to them feeling they had to be operating in some jurisdiction like Britian's white listed ones then they would choose the one with the lowest tax. I think it is very unlikely that many online gambling firms would relocate their license to Ireland without it being financially advantageous due to tax reasons. Remember the IT and customer service side are a different issue and there is no problem operating these aspects in areas different to where the firm is based for licensing and tax purposes. We already have numerous online gambling firms operating here for the former but I would be surprised if we produced an attractive enough tax to undercut the tax haven islands to incentivise much relocation for the latter.

Very very good point. I am totally ripping that off

However I still think there are other considerations and that in future you will see a sea change in how these companies do business. Internet gaming has been in it's initial boom period but once it reaches saturation and consolidation it will be forced to re-think it's priorities about licensing.

However in the short to medium term I agree that your point about taxation is absolutely correct.