Wine Off Licences

Blisterman

What is the story with shops, such as Spar, who have off licences which only sell wine?
Is this a particular licence? If so, why do they only sell wine, and not beer? Beer generally has a lower ABV than wine. Is it some outdated assumption that wine is somehow more sophisticated than beer, and wine drinkers are less likely to cause trouble?
You only need to compare the typical Buckfast drinker to the typical Chimay drinker, to see how ridiculous that broad assumption is.

Or is there some other reason for it?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

oblivious

Blisterman wrote: »

What is the story with shops, such as Spar, who have off licences which only sell wine?
Is this a particular licence? If so, why do they only sell wine, and not beer? Beer generally has a lower ABV than wine. Is it some outdated assumption that wine is somehow more sophisticated than beer, and wine drinkers are less likely to cause trouble?
You only need to compare the typical Buckfast drinker to the typical Chimay drinker, to see how ridiculous that broad assumption is.

Or is there some other reason for it?

I thought the was a difference license for wine or at least cheaper, but wine is also seen as are sophisticated drink for some reason.

noby

The wine being sold in spar won't break the publican's cartel.

BeerNut

I think basic snobbery is at the root of this one: for most of the last century wine was something rich people drank with food and was therefore not dangerous and in need of strict control. Beer and spirits, however, were consumed by poor people who couldn't be trusted to use them responsibly, so only a limited number of outlets were licensed to sell them.

People still think wine and food are natural and innocent companions, while only a lout would want beer with his meal. It's why, for instance, you have restaurants with extensive and exclusive wine lists, plus two factory-made industrial lagers in the fridge for the riff-raff.

That the two-tier licensing system has endured, as far as I can see, is largely down to the political power of publicans in this country. Wine isn't part of their mainstream stock-in-trade so they're not bothered who sells it. But beer is where they make their money. Anyone else selling beer is a threat; hence to sell beer in any retail outlet requires purchase of a full pub licence from an existing licence-holder.

The inflated market price of a pub licence is a lot of publicans' pensions. They can sell them to Spar or Centra and retire on it (which is why I find their whining about rural pub closures particularly galling). Any policy that might conceivably devalue the resale value of a pub licence is quietly killed off behind the scenes, as Michael McDowell discovered a couple of years ago.

The publicans watched what happened to the taxi drivers in a very similar set of circumstances. They have no intention of letting that happen to them.

the beer revolu

Blisterman wrote: »

What is the story with shops, such as Spar, who have off licences which only sell wine?
Is this a particular licence? If so, why do they only sell wine, and not beer? Beer generally has a lower ABV than wine. Is it some outdated assumption that wine is somehow more sophisticated than beer, and wine drinkers are less likely to cause trouble?
You only need to compare the typical Buckfast drinker to the typical Chimay drinker, to see how ridiculous that broad assumption is.

Or is there some other reason for it?

Oh don't start me on that!
I might never stop:)

azzeretti

Anyknow if this license covers selling your own, homebrewed wine

BeerNut

Selling it, yes. However you need a separate licence to make it, if the intention is to sell it.

i71jskz5xu42pb

The Scientist wrote: »

Surprisingly enough a wine licence is quiet easy to get, you just pay €250 quid for it & away you go....

No longer the case it seems

Wine off-licences will in future require a District Court certificate (they may be obtained at present directly from the Revenue Commissioners without a certificate);

rubadub

This is also why many restaurants do not sell beer too. Many do and the gardai just turn a blind eye as long as the owner makes a reasonable donation to the garda benelovent fund, or throws a few meals their way.

My mates old man used to run a restaurant in a place with several others around it and told me that.

It is the snobbery thing too, not many would go to a restaurant with the intention of getting pissed on beer, while the gardai would not turn a blind eye to the local spar selling crates to teenagers, but there is no harm in the restaurant, except the loss in revenue for the state.

Does anybody know what cider is classed as? I would have thought it should be wine but never see it in spar, so I think it might be out on its own altogether, if this is the case is apple wine cider, or what is the legal definition? a certain level of carbonation? I know the duty went up on cider and not beer a few years back, so it seems there are 4-5 distinctions, beer, wine, cider, spirits, alcopops.

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

if this is the case is apple wine cider, or what is the legal definition? a certain level of carbonation? I know the duty went up on cider and not beer a few years back, so it seems there are 4-5 distinctions, beer, wine, cider, spirits, alcopops.

The Finance Act 2003 defines these, and separates them into "Spirits", "Beer", "Wine", "Cider & Perry" (a beverage exceeding 1.2% vol but not exceeding 15% vol, obtained from the fermentation of apple or pear juice and without the addition of— (a) any other alcoholic beverage, or (b) any other beverage or substance which imparts colour or flavour and which, by such addition in the opinion of the Commissioners significantly alters the character of the product) "other fermented beverages" and "intermediate beverages".

I think alcopops are "other fermented beverages".

AFAIK, only wine has a special sort of licence. You need a full licence if you want to sell anything else: beer, spirits, cider and other intoxicating vices of the ghastly lower orders.

Blisterman

What about Kopperberg Mixed fruit cider?
Not pear or apple.
What's that classed under? Is it a wine?

BeerNut

That would be an "Other fermented beverage". I'm told that all Koppaberg drinks are classed as this since even the apple and pear ones don't derive their alcohol from fermenting the fruit juice. They're not really cider at all.

the beer revolu

BeerNut wrote: »

That would be an "Other fermented beverage". I'm told that all Koppaberg drinks are classed as this since even the apple and pear ones don't derive their alcohol from fermenting the fruit juice. They're not really cider at all.

Which is why they went up in price a couple of years ago - before that they were being flogged as cider until Revenue copped on. The strong ones especially shot up in price. No harm!

rediguana

BeerNut wrote: »

That would be an "Other fermented beverage". I'm told that all Koppaberg drinks are classed as this since even the apple and pear ones don't derive their alcohol from fermenting the fruit juice. They're not really cider at all.

Really? I never knew that. Where does the alcohol come from? And how can it legally be called "Cider" on the label if it isn't cider?

"Kopparberg... made with the finest fruits which are allowed to slowly ferment to the desired strength" -> From Kopparberg website.

oblivious

rediguana wrote: »

Really? I never knew that. Where does the alcohol come from? And how can it legally be called "Cider" on the label if it isn't cider?

"Kopparberg... made with the finest fruits which are allowed to slowly ferment to the desired strength" -> From Kopparberg website.

Supposably similar wines that are use for vermouth can to be use in the production of alcopops

that would not violate that statement as they never defined what fruits are use to produce he alcohol

rubadub

rediguana wrote: »

Really? I never knew that. Where does the alcohol come from?

A lot of alcopops would be made with fermented sugar water. You can get homebrew vodka/liquer kits which just use a blend of yeast and nutrients added to normal table sugar and brewed to around 20%. Some distillers use these since they produce very little "cogeners" or undesirable by products. You end up with a neutral brew, quickly and cleanly fermented to around 16-18% (to get to 20% takes a longer time and most do not bother). The home kits will then have finings, you clear it all off and decant into another container and add activated charcoal to get rid of the off tastes and smells. It will also adsorb (not a typo!) some unwanted chemicals. Other techniques & treatments can be used to get rid of bad tastes & smells.

Sugar brews are quite efficient money & timewise, and the product is chemically quite pure, only bare traces of methanol are produced which would be a big cause of hangovers.

Cheap versions of baileys may have a "whiskey/wine blend" or just "wine". You can bet there is a drop of whiskey in there, and the "wine" is probably sugar water brews. The high % of these "wines" means you can get away with diluting them with other stuff and passing them off as resonably high % brews, like these cheap baileys blends, and high % alcopops like mad-dog 20/20

rediguana wrote: »

And how can it legally be called "Cider" on the label if it isn't cider?

I dunno how strict guidelines are on booze, I am still very surprised that they do not have to disclose the ingredients on the labels, Tesco are one of the very few who do list ingredients. You can see what they add to spirits like glycerine to smoothen them out. Like oblivious said they do not say what "fruits" are, and sugar beet or cane may pass legal definitions.

noby

rubadub wrote: »

This is also why many restaurants do not sell beer too. Many do and the gardai just turn a blind eye as long as the owner makes a reasonable donation to the garda benelovent fund, or throws a few meals their way.

BeerNut wrote: »

AFAIK, only wine has a special sort of licence. You need a full licence if you want to sell anything else: beer, spirits, cider and other intoxicating vices of the ghastly lower orders.

I don't have a link to the relevant legislation to hand, but as far is I'm aware this has changed. A restaurant can have a licence to sell beer (not a full licence) as well as wine. There is a list of criteria they have to conform to (you cannot walk up to a 'bar' and order the drink, you have to be seated at a table, with a full meal etc.) I'll see if I can dig it out (or maybe I just dreamt it)



EDIT: In fact it's mentioned here

Section 26 - Sale of Beer in Restaurant under Wine ‘On’ Licence
Section 26 permits the sale of beer under a wine ‘on’ licence in a restaurant which does not
contain a bar and in respect of which a Restaurant Certificate has been granted under
section 12(1A) of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1927 provided such beer is consumed at the
same time as and with a meal and is paid for at the same time as the meal is paid for.

BeerNut

Quite right. I did not know that. But look at those conditions: You can serve a beer as long as you have no pretensions towards being a pub and cannot possibly be construed as being one.

"Exactly when did you pay for your drink, sir?"

It also means restaurants have zero excuse for not presenting better beer options.

noby

BeerNut wrote: »

It also means restaurants have zero excuse for not presenting better beer options.

Absolutely.

the beer revolu

BeerNut wrote: »

Quite right. I did not know that. But look at those conditions: You can serve a beer as long as you have no pretensions towards being a pub and cannot possibly be construed as being one.

"Exactly when did you pay for your drink, sir?"

It also means restaurants have zero excuse for not presenting better beer options.

I understand when small restaurants don't sell beer at all. Fridge space taken up with wine, milk and water, not enough storage space, don't want tobe like a bar etc. etc.
But it really bugs me when small restaurants sell one industrial lager. If the choice is quality brewed lager or no lager, then the customer will chance a quality beer and probably like it.
Most restaurants don't sell supermarket wine so why do they do it with beer?