UK abortion figures

MrPudding

I see the old abortion export industry is thriving.

In 2007 66% of foreign national abortions in the UK were Irish women. That was 4686 abortions, for those that gave the correct country of course. The next highest with 18.9% (1343 abortions) was Northern Ireland.

Sure we can just pretend it doesn't happen.

Source: http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsStatistics/DH_085508

MrP

Rev Hellfire

It seems a perfectly amicable situation in my view.
Those who want an abortion can obtain them easily enough, travelling to the UK or the north is hardly an expensive prospect these days. While those who oppose it (the majority at present) get to have their democratic rights respected.
All in all win win.

Nevyn

I don't think the abortion figures are down I think that the numbers going to the uk has dropped they would now be going to Holland, Belgium and Denemark where records are not kept in the same way.

The average has been around 6,000 for the last decade or so.

Also abortions are not available up north so you do have to leave the island of ireland to get one and that is not possible for some women due to their visa or other status and
it incurs more expense which rules it out for others, so it's easy enough for anyone who
chooses to have an abortion. I don't think anyone ever wants to have one.

Illegal abortions do happen in this country ad have been on the increase with when they go wrong
those women end up in A&E in maternity hospitals.

Concern on illegal Irish abortions

[Posted: Thu 28/07/2005]

By Niall Hunter-Editor

The Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA) has said the small drop in the number of Irish women going to Britain for abortions is most likely due to the high costs of having the procedure there.

And the IFPA has stressed that the latest abortion figures do not take account of the number of women who have had illegal abortions in Ireland.

An IFPA spokeswoman told irishhealth.com that recent anecdotal reports of 'backstreet' abortions in Ireland are an extremely worrying development, but not at all surprising, given that in any country where women's access to safe, legal abortion is denied, some women will seek to terminate their pregnancy by other means.

A total of 6,217 Irish women traveled to the UK for abortions in 2004, a drop of 103 on the figures for the previous year.

Women aged between 20 and 30 years represented the majority of those who travelled to Britain for abortions last year.

Rosie Toner, director of the IFPA's counseling services, said an increasing number of women attending the Association's post-abortion medical and counselling service had had their terminations in other European countries, including the Netherlands and Spain.

She said lower airfares and access to the internet has enabled Irish women to investigate other options outside of Britain.

The cost of a termination in the UK at present varies from £650 to £750 while the cost of an early abortion in Holland can be 250 or 300 euros less.

Even when travel and accommodation are taken into account it can still work out much cheaper to travel to other EU countries, according to the IFPA.

It says there is a real need for Irish statistics on abortion which indicate the number of women who access termination services within the EU, America and Russia; which are all locations that Irish women have been reported to travel to for abortions.

Ms Toner said unless we can develop a real picture of the numbers of women traveling for abortion services we will not be in a position to develop strategies and services that deal with the needs of women.

The IFPA said the fact that over 6,000 Irish women were traveling to Britain for abortions was further evidence of the need for domestic-based abortion services.

The Association suspects that some illegal abortions have taken place recently in Ireland but says it has it has no hard evidence of this.

It points out that in the past year the Gardai have found evidence of a return to illegal abortion, which has not been reported in Ireland since the 1950s. These terminations are believed to have taken place among the immigrant population, some of whom might face greater restrictions on travel and often lack funds, according to the Association

RayM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Those who want an abortion can obtain them easily enough, travelling to the UK or the north is hardly an expensive prospect these days.

Firstly, the North is every bit as backward as we are on this issue. Secondly, I somehow doubt that there's anything easy about having an abortion. Having to make a potentially very lonely and expensive (yes, for those who don't have a great deal of disposable income, traveling to the UK is expensive, and sometimes prohibitively so) journey to a different country doesn't sound 'easy enough' to me.

Fratton Fred

RayM wrote: »

Firstly, the North is every bit as backward as we are on this issue. Secondly, I somehow doubt that there's anything easy about having an abortion. Having to make a potentially very lonely and expensive (yes, for those who don't have a great deal of disposable income, traveling to the UK is expensive, and sometimes prohibitively so) journey to a different country doesn't sound 'easy enough' to me.

but you miss the really important point. It's something Ireland can brush under mat and pretend doesn't happen. :mad:

I apprecaite support for girls having abortions has improved significantly, but it must be a very traumatic experience and to have to board a plane or ferry to come home, quite often in secret must make it even harder still.

philologos

MrPudding wrote: »

In 2007 66% of foreign national abortions in the UK were Irish women. That was 4686 abortions, for those that gave the correct country of course. The next highest with 18.9% (1343 abortions) was Northern Ireland.

Hm with the population growth expected to be at around 1.1% per year, that would mean that this accounts for about 10% of pregnancies each year.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

if nobody died...

nacho libre

There is no elephant in the room.

Rev Hellfire

RayM wrote: »

Firstly, the North is every bit as backward as we are on this issue. Secondly, I somehow doubt that there's anything easy about having an abortion. Having to make a potentially very lonely and expensive (yes, for those who don't have a great deal of disposable income, traveling to the UK is expensive, and sometimes prohibitively so) journey to a different country doesn't sound 'easy enough' to me.

Its immaterial how easy or hard someone finds it, the simple fact is for those who want one its readily available. If they want it hard enough they'll get it, if they're not prepared to travel to the UK to avail of a professional service, well then on their own heads be it.
The general population seems happy enough with the current situation, the fact is the elephant might be in the room, its not that no-one sees it, its that no-one cares.

gogglebok

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its immaterial how easy or hard someone finds it, the simple fact is for those who want one its readily available. If they want it hard enough they'll get it, if they're not prepared to travel to the UK to avail of a professional service, well then on their own heads be it.

A lot of people don't have easy access to over a thousand euro. Would you noot say the current system favours the better-off?

Rev Hellfire

Without a shadow of a doubt those with money have access to be better treatments, which is exactly as it should be.

RayM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Without a shadow of a doubt those with money have access to be better treatments, which is exactly as it should be.

Care to expand on that? Why, in your view, is that 'exactly as it should be'?

Agent Smith

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't think the abortion figures are down I think that the numbers going to the uk has dropped they would now be going to Holland, Belgium and Denemark where records are not kept in the same way.

The average has been around 6,000 for the last decade or so.

Also abortions are not available up north so you do have to leave the island of ireland to get one and that is not possible for some women due to their visa or other status and
it incurs more expense which rules it out for others, so it's easy enough for anyone who
chooses to have an abortion. I don't think anyone ever wants to have one.

Illegal abortions do happen in this country ad have been on the increase with when they go wrong
those women end up in A&E in maternity hospitals.

is there not free travel threwout the eu. ie. bus to belfast and Boat to scotland (no check)

herya

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

While those who oppose it (the majority at present) get to have their democratic rights respected.
All in all win win.

Nobody forces the majority to do it - their rights are fully respected either way.

Rev Hellfire

herya wrote: »

Nobody forces the majority to do it - their rights are fully respected either way.

That statement makes no sense.
The majority oppose abortion, hence it remains illegal except in cases of medical necessity. Those who want to have an abortion can take the ferry or a cheap flight to the mainland. Everyone wins.
To be honest I can't see the problem, if you want one badly enough and you're prepared to put your hand in your pocket its there for you.

herya

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

That statement makes no sense.

I'll rephrase it then - democracy is not about enforcing what the majority believes only ("tyranny of the majority" concept), it's also about respecting the rights of minorities. With abortion possible, the rights of majority would be respected - nobody forces them to do it & they are fully capable of avoiding it and campaigning against it - but the rights of minority would also be respected - the are allowed to do it & campaign for it.

Rev Hellfire

herya wrote: »

I'll rephrase it then - democracy is not about enforcing what the majority believes only ("tyranny of the majority" concept), it's also about respecting the rights of minorities. With abortion possible, the rights of majority would be respected - nobody forces them to do it & they are fully capable of avoiding it and campaigning against it - but the rights of minority would also be respected - the are allowed to do it & campaign for it.

I see where you're going and to a degree agree with it as a concept.

But a democracy is a "tyranny of the majority”. Whatever “rights” a minority get which run contrary to the wishes of majority are there only at the sufferance of that same majority.

Quite frankly what would the point of votes be if you automatically got what you wanted every time by playing the victimised minority card?

As long as you have the right to travel (which has been established for this particular topic). Then your destiny is in your own hands in my view, which brings us back to my particular view point earlier.

gogglebok

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

To be honest I can't see the problem, if you want one badly enough and you're prepared to put your hand in your pocket its there for you.

It's just that it's not equally available to rich and poor. You can be prepared all you like to put your hand in your pocket, but that's not much good if the pocket is empty. Many people simply don't have a thousand euro to hand, however grave the need.

We could argue about whether abortion should be equally available to rich and poor, of course. But I think it's a matter of plain fact that it isn't, and that therefore the current nod-wink-and-ferry system is out of whack with the social equality that the rest of our health service aims at. (Or should aim at, or claims to aim at.)

Nevyn

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Those who want to have an abortion can take the ferry or a cheap flight to the mainland.

:eek:

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Everyone wins.

So inflicting more upset, stress and trauma on people who are already in the situation of a crises pregnancy is a win ?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

To be honest I can't see the problem, if you want one badly enough and you're prepared to put your hand in your pocket its there for you.

Again having to travel and the cost of travel makes it even more prohibiting for people.


http://www.safeandlegalinireland.ie/sl_aboutcam.html

The Discriminatory Nature of Ireland's Abortion Ban

On a daily basis IFPA counsellors witness how a woman's age, her mental capacity, and her other life circumstances affect her decision whether to carry a pregnancy to term and her ability to do so. Yet, the laws restricting abortion disregard all such factors.

Refugee, Asylum Seeking and migrant women

Women who are refugees, asylum seekers or unregistered migrants face particularly difficult challenges in travelling for an abortion resulting in increased delay, expense, unnecessary hardship and stigma. Refugees or asylum seekers who wish to travel to England for abortion services must apply to the Department of Justice for a visa to re-enter the country. This process is time-consuming and burdensome.

Women often need assistance to negotiate through the bureaucratic visa process with State authorities; for example, needing help to expedite requests, find translation services, and fax documents from a private fax. Apart from the severe burden that the uncertainty of this process imposes upon women, the fees and cost of travel to Dublin add an additional financial burden on refugee or asylum seeker women who are often surviving on state grants of only 19.50 per week.

For migrant women who do not have a work permit or refugee or asylum seeker status, this process of applying for permission to travel can be impossible and can jeopardise their right to be in Ireland. Women may resort to illegal abortion providers or attempt to travel without legal documentation. In the past year the Garda Siochana have found evidence of a return to illegal, unsafe abortion not seen since the early 1950's.

Women on Low Income

Women on low income are particularly adversely impacted by the ban on abortion. Women living in poverty who are holders of valid medical cards issued by the Health Services Executive are entitled to free health care service for all medical services other than abortion. The IFPA sees a great many women who seek counselling assistance not because they are uncertain about their options but because they are in need of financial assistance. Many women experiencing poverty turn to moneylenders who charge extortionate rates for short-term loans to cover the cost of abortion and required travel.

Young Women

For young women the experience of travel itself can be very difficult or intimidating. They have increased difficulties raising funds and often remain isolated because they fear telling anyone about their situation. Sometimes young women are accompanied to counselling by a parent or other relative or a friend. However, many young women travel without first seeking counselling or informing anyone that they are leaving the country. Young women in particular often do not feel comfortable consulting their family doctor or general practitioner ("GP") for fear they will be judged for being pregnant or considering abortion or that their confidentiality will be breached.

Those women who have Irish citizenship but who lack a passport or driver's license face additional difficulties travelling. To seek a passport on an expedited basis requires a woman to disclose that she is travelling to seek an abortion, a disclosure that often remains in her file at her local passport office.

Women in Care or in the Control of the State

Those in care or in the control of the state face additional barriers in accessing services abroad.

Rev Hellfire

Thaedydal wrote: »

So inflicting more upset, stress and trauma on people who are already in the situation of a crises pregnancy is a win ?

Quite frankly yes, compared to what the situation was previously at least the option of travel is not proscribed. Simply put everyone get their way.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Again having to travel and the cost of travel makes it even more prohibiting for people.

The cost of travel is immaterial in my view, fights and ferries to the UK are cheap these days. Yes the cost a hotel will need to be factored into it but that's true if the person was coming from the country to a centre anyway usless its a revolving door situation we're dealing with.

With perhaps the exception of rape and severely disabled children I see no compelling reason for the state to change the current status quo.

If people get themselves into a mess they can cover the cost for getting themselves out of it in my view. It’s for that reason I have no sympathy what so ever for people who cite cost in this particular situation.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree though since its unlikely either of us will be swayed by the views of the other.

mickoneill30

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If people get themselves into a mess they can cover the cost for getting themselves out of it in my view. It’s for that reason I have no sympathy what so ever for people who cite cost in this particular situation.

So you've no problem with abortion as long as it's not done in Ireland? Madness. Either you think abortion should be allowed or you think it should be banned. Punishing people who want abortions by sending them abroad is just stupid and hypocritcal.

Fair enough they probably got themselves into a mess themselves. So lets make it as awkward and as stupid as possible to get out of it. We should apply that logic to every mess that people get into themselves.

Zulu

No, I think it's more of a "why should I have to pay for it" - which is a sentiment I agree with.
I'd rather see the money invested in education.
Besides the ferry is quite comfortable nowadays.

gogglebok

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The cost of travel is immaterial in my view, fights and ferries to the UK are cheap these days.

But Rev, you're talking talk as if "cheap" is an absolute value. It isn't. What is cheap to a millionaire may be unaffordable to someone else.

We probably disagree on the general abortion issue. I'm much closer to Mick and Thaedydal there. (As you suggest, that one nearly always ends up in the agree-to-disagree file.) But I would be concerned that if you're basing your position to any degree on affordability, then this ideal of an absolute value for "cheapness" does weaken your case.

mickoneill30

Zulu wrote: »

No, I think it's more of a "why should I have to pay for it" - which is a sentiment I agree with.
I'd rather see the money invested in education.
Besides the ferry is quite comfortable nowadays.

Who's saying we should have to pay for it? Make it available but charge for it.
I'm sure the ferry isn't quite comfortable for somebody after an abortion.

Zulu

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Who's saying we should have to pay for it? Make it available but charge for it.

I don't think having an abortion as an option reserved for private healthcare/those who can pay, would be a suitable solution. Do you? - I think thats the point being made by those who disagree that it's "cheap".
...so if it was available via the public healthcare we'd foot the bill.

I'm sure the ferry isn't quite comfortable for somebody after an abortion.

They're very comfortable these days.

Nevyn

if that was the case the abortion pill is cheaper and so is offering free contraception to all under 25.

Zulu

I 100% agree with free contraception. That is something I'd happily offer my tax €'s for.

Not abortions though.

MrPudding

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

With perhaps the exception of rape and severely disabled children I see no compelling reason for the state to change the current status quo.

I just don't get this. Why are some abortion ok and some not?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If people get themselves into a mess they can cover the cost for getting themselves out of it in my view. It’s for that reason I have no sympathy what so ever for people who cite cost in this particular situation.

It is nice to have black and white views and absolute certainly about the cause of things. I would not be as comfortable as you obviously are in laying the blame 100% at the feet of the woman who finds herself pregnant when it was not planned or wanted.. But then, I am funny like that.

Zulu wrote: »

No, I think it's more of a "why should I have to pay for it" - which is a sentiment I agree with.

Oh. I thought from previous discussion on this debate you had other less shallow reasons for being against abortion. But you simply object to paying for them, fair enough I suppose. I think it is safe to say that everyone pays for things they don’t particularly agree with. That is all part of being a member of society.

Zulu wrote: »

Besides the ferry is quite comfortable nowadays.

I think the comfort of the mode of transport is of little odds. But then you know that…

MrP

Zulu

MrPudding wrote: »

Oh. I thought from previous discussion on this debate you had other less shallow reasons for being against abortion. But you simply object to paying for them, fair enough I suppose. I think it is safe to say that everyone pays for things they don’t particularly agree with. That is all part of being a member of society.

I think perhaps in your haste you misinterpreted. That, or I wasn't clear. Let me clarify: I do not agree with footing the bill. That isn't to say I'd agree if it was free.

I think the comfort of the mode of transport is of little odds. But then you know that…

Naturally. Let's face it, the issue isn't that the poor unfortunates have to travel - they'll have to do that anyway, it's just that they need to leave the country.

Zulu

...and being a member of a democratic society, means you have a say on the things you need to pay for. Thankfully.

mickoneill30

Zulu wrote: »

I don't think having an abortion as an option reserved for private healthcare/those who can pay, would be a suitable solution. Do you? - I think thats the point being made by those who disagree that it's "cheap".

Isn't that what we have now? People who can afford it go abroad. People who can't, or don't know what to do, have the baby. That must work out cheap for society in the long term. Are these people who are travelling to England getting it for free. Maybe they are. I don't know. If not, why not let them have them in Ireland for the same expense?

So your logic is we're not giving you an abortion because it'll cost too much. However we'll give you childrens allowance for the next 18 (is that right?) years, maybe subsidised housing if you're a single mother and unable to work because you've got a kid and whatever else children get from the state these days.
Edit: That sounds crass. I'm not arguing for abortions from the money angle. I'm trying to show how daft it is to say Ireland shouldn't have abortions because they're expensive.

You wouldn't want abortions for free but you'd allow free contraceptives. If you're only coming at it from the money angle which works out cheaper? Free contraceptives for everyone for life or 5000 abortions a year. When do you start giving out those free contraceptives? At the legal age or at the age that teenagers are having sex? There's a minefield for ya. Could it not be means tested? What would happen if one of those free contraceptives failed (as they can do, and it's one reason why people get abortions now). Would the state be liable?

For the record I'm not in favour of abortions. They should absolutely be the last resort and too many people use them as birth control but I think that exporting the problem to England and saying everythings grand is just total stupidity. We did enough of that in our history. We should be educated enough now not to do that anymore.

Rev Hellfire

MrPudding wrote: »

I just don't get this. Why are some abortion ok and some not?

I'm not saying that at all. The reason I differentiate them is that in the case of rape and disability these are not typically the result of an action taken by the parents. And as such I’ve no problem with the state (ie. My bucks) helping them.

MrPudding wrote: »

It is nice to have black and white views and absolute certainly about the cause of things. I would not be as comfortable as you obviously are in laying the blame 100% at the feet of the woman who finds herself pregnant when it was not planned or wanted.. But then, I am funny like that.

Both parties male and female are to blame, its not like anyone forced them to have sex. Therefore if it all goes pear-shaped I don't see why I should pick up the bill.

mickoneill30

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Both parties male and female are to blame, its not like anyone forced them to have sex. Therefore if it all goes pear-shaped I don't see why I should pick up the bill.

Your bucks end up supporting the kid when it's born. Unless the parents have private health care and send the kid to private school and don't claim childrens allowance.

Zulu

It's always dangerous to assume someone elses logic!

mickoneill30 wrote: »

So your logic is we're not giving you an abortion because it'll cost too much. However we'll give you childrens allowance ...

Nope, I'm saying that I don't want to foot the bill for a procedure I don't agree with. I have no problem helping families raise their children - whatever the cost.

Edit: That sounds crass. I'm not arguing for abortions from the money angle. I'm trying to show how daft it is to say Ireland shouldn't have abortions because they're expensive.

It's not daft at all. Why is it daft for someone to object to paying for something they morally disagree with? What is daft is suggesting otherwise.

When do you start giving out those free contraceptives?

12? 11? 10?

At the legal age or at the age that teenagers are having sex?

When they are having sex obviously.

There's a minefield for ya.

How is that a minefield?

What would happen if one of those free contraceptives failed (as they can do, and it's one reason why people get abortions now).

The same as waht happens now.

Would the state be liable?

No.

mickoneill30

Zulu wrote: »

It's always dangerous to assume someone elses logic!
Nope, I'm saying that I don't want to foot the bill for a procedure I don't agree with. I have no problem helping families raise their children - whatever the cost.
It's not daft at all. Why is it daft for someone to object to paying for something they morally disagree with? What is daft is suggesting otherwise.

Sorry. I was going by what you typed. I can't read your mind.

Zulu wrote: »

No, I think it's more of a "why should I have to pay for it" - which is a sentiment I agree with.
I'd rather see the money invested in education.
Besides the ferry is quite comfortable nowadays.

I missed the bit where you said you morally disagreed with it. I just saw the bit where you said "why should I have to pay for it". If you morally disagree with it that's enough. That's fine. You don't have to bring money into it at all.

Zulu

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Sorry. I was going by what you typed. I can't read your mind.

No need to get snippy. You took what I typed and were happy enough to draw your own conclusions from that. You assumed that was my argument. That's not my fault - that's yours.

I missed the bit where you said you morally disagreed with it.

That's because I hadn't said it.

I just saw the bit where you said "why should I have to pay for it". If you morally disagree with it that's enough. That's fine. You don't have to bring money into it at all.

I didn't bring money into it. I merely said I agreed with another poster. Please read my posts before jumping to conclusion, particularly if you are going to react adversely. Life is too short.

mickoneill30

Zulu wrote: »

No need to get snippy. You took what I typed and were happy enough to draw your own conclusions from that. You assumed that was my argument. That's not my fault - that's yours.

Mate. If you can't make your argument clearly that IS your fault.

Zulu wrote: »

That's because I hadn't said it.

Exactly. So how was I supposed to figure out that's what you meant. See the sentence above.

Zulu wrote: »

I didn't bring money into it. I merely said I agreed with another poster. Please read my posts before jumping to conclusion, particularly if you are going to react adversely. Life is too short.

I quoted you above from the post I read. Saying "why should I have to pay for it" implies money. I didn't think you were going to pay for it in peanuts. Is that too snippy?

Sorry if I'm jumping to conclusions there. We can only go by what you type on the forum. If you have other arguments in your head we can't agree or disagree with them until you type them here.

Rev Hellfire

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Your bucks end up supporting the kid when it's born. Unless the parents have private health care and send the kid to private school and don't claim childrens allowance.

The state pays into a person’s education as an investment into future earnings from child. State sponsored education is something I've no problem with. And if the parents can provide an enhanced education/healthcover via private funding all the better.

Anyhow this is aside issue, my opinion is that travel to the UK for abortion service do not represent a prohibitive cost; Yes some people may find it more difficult than others to finance but that's not my problem its theirs.

The usurpation of the welfare system is a totally different matter.

Zulu

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Mate. ... ...

Well you really told me. :rolleyes:

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Anyhow this is aside issue, my opinion is that travel to the UK for abortion service do not represent a prohibitive cost; Yes some people may find it more difficult than others to finance but that's not my problem its theirs.

+1

Sam Vimes

Thaedydal wrote: »

:eek:



So inflicting more upset, stress and trauma on people who are already in the situation of a crises pregnancy is a win ?



Again having to travel and the cost of travel makes it even more prohibiting for people.


http://www.safeandlegalinireland.ie/sl_aboutcam.html

let's change this around a bit

The Discriminatory Nature of Ireland's Cannabis Ban

On a daily basis IFPA counsellors witness how a woman's age, her mental capacity, and her other life circumstances affect her decision whether to smoke cannabis and her ability to do so. Yet, the laws restricting cannabis disregard all such factors.

Refugee, Asylum Seeking and migrant women

Women who are refugees, asylum seekers or unregistered migrants face particularly difficult challenges in travelling for cannabis resulting in increased delay, expense, unnecessary hardship and stigma. Refugees or asylum seekers who wish to travel to Amsterdam for cannabis must apply to the Department of Justice for a visa to re-enter the country. This process is time-consuming and burdensome.

Women often need assistance to negotiate through the bureaucratic visa process with State authorities; for example, needing help to expedite requests, find translation services, and fax documents from a private fax. Apart from the severe burden that the uncertainty of this process imposes upon women, the fees and cost of travel to Dublin add an additional financial burden on refugee or asylum seeker women who are often surviving on state grants of only 19.50 per week.

For migrant women who do not have a work permit or refugee or asylum seeker status, this process of applying for permission to travel can be impossible and can jeopardise their right to be in Ireland. Women may resort to illegal cannabis providers or attempt to travel without legal documentation. In the past year the Garda Siochana have found evidence of a return to illegal, unsafe cannabis not seen since the early 1950's.

Women on Low Income

Women on low income are particularly adversely impacted by the ban on cannabis. Women living in poverty who are holders of valid medical cards issued by the Health Services Executive are entitled to free health care service for all medical services other than cannabis. The IFPA sees a great many women who seek counselling assistance not because they are uncertain about their options but because they are in need of financial assistance. Many women experiencing poverty turn to moneylenders who charge extortionate rates for short-term loans to cover the cost of cannabis and required travel.

etc etc etc

i think you see my point here. all those points are only valid if you think there's nothing wrong with abortion. why should the irish government assist people in travelling to a different country to avail of something that's illegal here, whether it be cannabis, abortion or child prostitution (thailand)?

there may be many valid reasons for legalising abortion but "people have to travel somewhere else where it is legal" is not one of them

also, in ireland something is only called discrimination if it's on a specific list. the list includes sex, age, race, sexual orientation etc. financial status isn't one of them


edit: and someone mentioned a figure of €1000. where did you get that figure? a flight to england can be got for about €50

gogglebok

Sam Vimes wrote: »

edit: and someone mentioned a figure of €1000. where did you get that figure? a flight to england can be got for about €50

Thaedydal quoted a piece that said "the cost of a termination in the UK at present varies from £650 to £750". I took that uncritically at its word, because it was in a font I liked, and applied my keen scientific exchange-rate instinct of "shure that must be around a grand".

Seriously, I don't know what the figures are, and it doesn't much matter to my very limited argument. I'm just saying that our current system of letting the UK perform Irish abortions means that they are not equally available to the rich and the poor. So if we consider the Irish abortion solution as an unacknowledged element of our health service, it's not very equitable.

This begs many questions, I know.

gogglebok

This is the best-tempered disagreement about abortion I've ever seen. Next time I have a barbecue and bouncy castle you're all invited.

Sam Vimes

but the cost of an abortion in england has nothing to do with ireland. If they were legal in ireland the price would most likely be even higher since everything is in ireland.

In fact it's entirely probable that people might still go to england if abortion was legal here because it'd be much cheaper, the same way people go to hungary for dentistry

btw, i'll bring the baby back ribs