What is to be done with Zimbabwe

ircoha

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7463687.stm

I was reading today about the anti-apartheid strike in Dunnes in 1984 which was driven by a need to stand up and be counted over SA and its regime.

Is there anything similar that can be done re the current situation or should they be left to their own devices.

wes

Zimbabwes economy is already in tatters, I doubt a boycott would have much effect, as Mugabe has already destroyed his countries economy.

Fratton Fred

anyone from outside who tries to get involved is only going ot be written off as a colonialist, so it won't make any difference. Pressure from Europe just adds to Mugabe's case it seems.

it's high profile at the moment, so probably not the best time for outside intervention, I expect the world will act after the election if Mugabe clearly loses it.

mike65

The "goodish" news is that there finally seems to be some disagreement within Zanu PF. I reckon that point has been reached when the level of power just below the leadership realises that the old fella has in fact gone nutz and will be dead soon anyway, and are starting to look to what happens after he is "retired".

Mike.

CtrlSource

Even for child murderers i'm against the death penalty and generally don't think that anyone (private citizen or state body) should be involved in killing a person. But when i was watching yet another news story about Zimbabwe the other day, and saw Mugabe's pugnacious face on screen, i wished that someone over there would just rub him out.

i know that there were more to the Nazis than just Hitler and that Mugabe still has considerable support, but are decent Zimbabweans going to have to wait for this guy to pop his clogs naturally or be forced into exile, before they're free of his tyrannical regime?

It'll be interesting to see the 'result' of the run off anyway. Tsvangirai seems like the real deal

purple'n'gold

“It'll be interesting to see the 'result' of the run off anyway. Tsvangirai seems like the real deal”

I do hope he doesn’t have an unfortunate “accident” before the vote. He’s an extraordinarily brave man. Probably the only hope for Zimbabwe.

ejmaztec

Is there a deputy to Mugabe, standing in the wings just in case he quits or dies?

Mugabe has given his cronies all of the critical jobs and I can't see those people stepping down without more bloodshed, even if Mugabe "went".

It's ironic that Mugabe's old white colonial enemy, Ian Smith, also refused to quit, until it was forced upon him. The only difference was that Smith didn't bankrupt the country during his tenure.

Belfast

ircoha wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7463687.stm

I was reading today about the anti-apartheid strike in Dunnes in 1984 which was driven by a need to stand up and be counted over SA and its regime.

Is there anything similar that can be done re the current situation or should they be left to their own devices.

They should be left to their own devices.

Firetrap

I think you're right, even though I wish someone would pop a bullet in Mugabe's brain and get rid of the despot. God knows who/what will come after he's gone though Outside intervention seems to just throw petrol on the flames. There are an awful lot of conflicts which were worsened when foreign troops got involved. Hopefully with time, change will come from within.

ejmaztec

Mugabe's apparently said that ge'll only give up power after the land reforms are complete - and then he will only hand over the reins to one of his allies. Doesn't sound too promising.


http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pages/mugabe9.18361.html

Opposition website, I assume.

turgon

CtrlSource wrote: »

Tsvangirai seems like the real deal

Seems being the key word. TBH, I dont think anything can be done. Its a depressing situation seeing fellow human beings acting like they were still living in the jungle.

What a world.

Mugabe seems to be in good shape for an 84 year old, unfortuantely.

Dave!

What happens if they have another election and Mugabe wins? I doubt anybody would believe that he won it legitimately, so what do ordinary Zimbabweans do?

Anybody have any insight into the 'on the ground' sentiments? Outrage? There doesn't seem to be mass protests going on, but just some opposition rallies. Is this because of fear?

What I'm getting at is, is there any chance that Zimbabweans would try to overthrow this fella? Or would they just be crushed by the army easily?

I would suggest a bit of international 'help', but that often has pretty bad consequences!

is_that_so

Tsvangirai has pulled out. A wise move considering the violence. As posted outside interference can be construed as anything. Unfortunately I don't believe that there is any answer beyond looking at things post-Mugabe.

turgon

Very sad turn of events.

Tsvangirai probably right - he wouldn't have won it anyway. He obviously just wants to save lives. He must be so frustrated.

Mugabe has lost all credibility. Execution is now the only solution. Either that or torture for the rest of his days.

South African president needs to be executed too, the fùcker could have done something. Instead he seemed to kinda appease him. And we all what appeasement can lead too.

A sad day for Africa.

silverharp

the way I understand it Mugabe reports to the military council, so he is more a puppet at the moment?

turgon

Military Council??

Executions would be in order here as well.

Executions for the army, most of the police force, the army veterans, and the vote counting personnel.

mike65

Pity about this but understandable. Better he is still alive when Mugabe is gone.

Mike.

Duzzie

Mugabe is being propped up by his cronies. Cronies who have lined their pockets at the expense of the people of Zimbabwe. This is why Mugabe couldn't step down or lose any election. Mugabe is an old man and in the event of him losing, there would be little appitite to investigate or prosecute, after all he is a war hero. His cronies on the other hand would be more open to scrutiny. It is them that have much more to lose. If Zanu lose power, they will be investigated and their lavish lifesyles will be at risk. They gained their wealth and power by supporting Mugabe and now they have to prop him up to maintain their freedom and status.

These are truely dark day for the people of Zimbabwe. I really fear for the future of the country and can see us having another Rwanda on our hands before long.

The international comunity, particularly African countries and most of all South Africa should be ashamed that things have been allowed to degenerate to the current levels. Mbeki has been done worse than nothing. The blood of murdered and raped Zimbabweans in on his hands as much as on Mugabes.

Shame

is_that_so

It is indeed a shame but in the face of an absolute despot who doesn't care what we think what else can be done that hasn't been, short of invasion? Everything that can be done diplomatically is being done.
We've already had two invasion adventures in the last few years and neither has been a huge success although Afghanistan seems to be heading the right way.

Duzzie

is_that_so wrote: »

It is indeed a shame but in the face of an absolute despot who doesn't care what we think what else can be done that hasn't been, short of invasion? Everything that can be done diplomatically is being done.
We've already had two invasion adventures in the last few years and neither has been a huge success although Afghanistan seems to be heading the right way.

I have no idea. As you say, he doesn't care what anyone thinks and that makes it very hard to deal with him. There is no way a political solution can be found when someone has an attitude like that. As it has been said before, The UK and the US could never invade without the support of a neighbouring country, as they had for both Iraq and Afganistan. None of Zimbabwes neighbours would entertain such an idea. I have no idea of where things go from here other than a bloody civil war.

Denis Irwin

Military action(UN Backed) at this stage whether people like or not would be IMO the best course of Action on Humanitarian grounds but as has been stated any sort of action would need the backing of at least one of Zimbabawe's neighbours but this would be unlikely as they have continued their ''Hear no Evil See No Evil'' approach to Mugabe. :rolleyes:

jonny72

If foreign intervention happens, then Mugabe and ZanuPF will grow stronger, and feel justified..

It has to come from Africa, esp. from S Africa.. but I think Mbeki is a useless spineless idiot.. so its unlikely..

Fratton Fred

Who is going to act though, britain is overstretched, the us won't want another war on their hands and no other western country has either the ability or the balls.
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dfx-

I don't think it matters anymore who says what. Next after Mugabe is his henchmen, a military coup or civil war with Mugabe having the state machinery behind him. There is only one winner. If there was "regime change" by any means, it would still take Zimbabwe probably 50 years to recover as well.

Evenso, that the despot-to-be Zuma found it within himself to come out before Mbeki says it all about Mbeki.

Denis Irwin

Tsvangirai seeks refuge in Dutch embassy

Zimbabwe's opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai has taken refuge in the Dutch embassy in the capital, Harare.
A Dutch foreign ministry spokesman said Mr Tsvangirai had spent the night at the embassy as he feared for his safety but had not requested asylum.
On Sunday, he announced he was withdrawing from a presidential election run-off in the face of violence from ruling party militias.
Zimbabwean officials have said the second round will still go ahead. But Botswana's Foreign Minister Pando Skelemani said leaders of the Southern African Development Community (Sadc) would have to decide whether Zimbabwe could have a legitimate president in the current political climate.

If in fact the atmosphere for an election is not free and fair you then can't have someone having won," he told the BBC.

"It would be the same as if you had been through the election and they are declared not free and fair, then you are back at square one."
Ahead of a UN Security Council discussion about Zimbabwe, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said President Robert Mugabe's regime "cannot be considered legitimate in the absence of a run-off".
Mr Tsvangirai says pressure from the UN and Sadc could force Mr Mugabe to give up power. "My assessment is that if there is a collective position by all Sadc leaders, that would be sufficient pressure - that voice is essential," he told US National Public Radio.

The conditions of the Security Council on Zimbabwe has one outcome that we will expect... to appoint a mission to investigate the level of abuses that have taken place - rape, torture, murder - and the various human rights abuse that has taken place."

Former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan told the BBC that he believed the elections should be postponed:
"Honestly, given what has happened, I doubt that anyone would accept the results, so they should put off the elections. But I think it is important that we all realise that Zimbabwe needs our help."
Zimbabwe's Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa said Mr Tsvangirai's announcement of his withdrawal was a ruse as he had not sent a formal notice yet.

Arrests

The BBC's Peter Biles in Johannesburg says Mr Tsvangirai is now considering his next move, but he remains in the Dutch compound

Dutch Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen said that if Mr Tsvangirai was looking for safety at the diplomatic mission, he was welcome.
"We've seen the last weeks a new low in the tortured history of Zimbabwe and I think that Mr Mugabe no longer has any moral legitimacy in the eyes of the people of Zimbabwe," she told the BBC.
Mr Tsvangirai blames supporters of President Mugabe and the ruling Zanu-PF party for the death of 86 of his supporters in the run-up to the second-round, due to be held on Friday.
On Monday, more than 60 supporters of Mr Tsvangirai's Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) party were arrested at its Harare headquarters.
MDC spokesman Nelson Chamisa said those arrested were women and children who had fled political violence.
Zimbabwean police told AFP news agency they had only moved 39 people from the building for "hygiene reasons".
President Mugabe and Zanu-PF blame the opposition for political violence across the country.
The MDC won the parliamentary vote in March, and claims to have won the first round of the presidential contest outright. In the official results, Mr Tsvangirai led but failed to gain enough votes to avoid a run-off.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7469705.stm