The free state army mutiny 1924

Shutuplaura

What was it exactly? I assume it was a reaction of an officer corps which was loyal to a recently deceased Mick Collins to the realization that the new free state army wasn't going to be used to help unify the country. Another side of it I've heard that it was a reaction to the downsizing of the army by soldiers worried about loosing their jobs in an uncertain time. How widespread was the mutiny, what form did it take and was there ever a danger it would lead to a military coup? Did it have any lasting effect on the governments attitude to the army?

purple'n'gold

Shutuplaura wrote: »

What was it exactly? I assume it was a reaction of an officer corps which was loyal to a recently deceased Mick Collins to the realization that the new free state army wasn't going to be used to help unify the country. Another side of it I've heard that it was a reaction to the downsizing of the army by soldiers worried about loosing their jobs in an uncertain time. How widespread was the mutiny, what form did it take and was there ever a danger it would lead to a military coup? Did it have any lasting effect on the governments attitude to the army?

it's all here
http://www.military.ie/dfhq/history/history.htm

McArmalite

Shutuplaura wrote: »

What was it exactly? I assume it was a reaction of an officer corps which was loyal to a recently deceased Mick Collins to the realization that the new free state army wasn't going to be used to help unify the country. Another side of it I've heard that it was a reaction to the downsizing of the army by soldiers worried about loosing their jobs in an uncertain time. How widespread was the mutiny, what form did it take and was there ever a danger it would lead to a military coup? Did it have any lasting effect on the governments attitude to the army?

I actually had a grand uncle who was one of those who got promotion sideways by the 'Free' State govt. This so called 'mutiny' was a mix of both from what I know. There was disquiet among many of the officers who had fought in the IRA before 1921 that nothing was been done to reunify the country. The Machevilain founding fathers of our state, or british puppets may be a more accurate description, wee Willie Cosgrave, Kevin O'Higgins* etc where getting rid of the old guard and replacing them with younger, more obedient officers, which was naturally resented by the older officers.


*( O'Higgins had spoke out strongly against the 1916 rising as he was a memeber of Redmond's IPP, but swithched around 1918 seeing Sinn Fein as the coming force )

bartholomewbinn

McArmalite wrote: »

I actually had a grand uncle who was one of those who got promotion sideways by the 'Free' State govt. This so called 'mutiny' was a mix of both from what I know. There was disquiet among many of the officers who had fought in the IRA before 1921 that nothing was been done to reunify the country. The Machevilain founding fathers of our state, or british puppets may be a more accurate description, wee Willie Cosgrave, Kevin O'Higgins* etc where getting rid of the old guard and replacing them with younger, more obedient officers, which was naturally resented by the older officers.


*( O'Higgins had spoke out strongly against the 1916 rising as he was a memeber of Redmond's IPP, but swithched around 1918 seeing Sinn Fein as the coming force )

Ah yes, another public house “republican” with his own slant on history. If you don’t like how it happened, sure just make up your own version.

Shutuplaura

So what happened then? I'm not playing devils advocate by the way. It just seems to me like it was a fairly important event in the early years of the state, when the Irish Government openly adopted a policy on unification that basically paid lip service to the position of Collins pro treaty stepping stone argument.

However, I read somewhere that it was not the case and dissatisfaction was based on industrial relation reasons not idealogical ones. I was just curious. I'm also curious to see if you have anything to add other than an insult.

McArmalite

bartholomewbinn wrote: »

Ah yes, another public house “republican” with his own slant on history. If you don’t like how it happened, sure just make up your own version.

Hi pal, watch yourself there. I'm far from being a public house “republican”. I'm not going to claim I've ever been in the Provos as I've been well aware that I wouldn't be up to it, but I've done my fair share of leafleting, marching, meetings, petitions etc starting from my late teens with the Hunger Strikes, then campaigns such as anti extradition, Dublin bombings, Birmingham six/Guildford four, opening border roads, Time to Go campaign, as well as picketing the Zionist embassy, pro divorce, anti Iraq war etc, etc. I have no doubts who is the one who sits on his ar$e in a public house spouting sh!te. And anyway, I just basically concured with Shutuplaura's OP " This so called 'mutiny' was a mix of both from what I know. " So Einstein, just stay off the thread if you can't " have anything to add other than an insult" .

bartholomewbinn

McArmalite wrote: »

Hi pal, watch yourself there. I'm far from being a public house “republican”. I'm not going to claim I've ever been in the Provos as I've been well aware that I wouldn't be up to it, but I've done my fair share of leafleting, marching, meetings, petitions etc starting from my late teens with the Hunger Strikes, then campaigns such as anti extradition, Dublin bombings, Birmingham six/Guildford four, opening border roads, Time to Go campaign, as well as picketing the Zionist embassy, pro divorce, anti Iraq war etc, etc. I have no doubts who is the one who sits on his ar$e in a public house spouting sh!te. And anyway, I just basically concured with Shutuplaura's OP " This so called 'mutiny' was a mix of both from what I know. " So Einstein, just stay off the thread if you can't " have anything to add other than an insult" .

You remind me of the character in “Citizen Smith” Freedom for tooting!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Smith

McArmalite

bartholomewbinn wrote: »

You remind me of the character in “Citizen Smith” Freedom for tooting!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Smith

Just keep sitting on your ar$e in a public house spouting sh!te - if you can get anyone to listen to you :rolleyes:.

ejmaztec

Group hug anyone?:)

eroo

The Army Mutiny:

1.Many officers who sided with Collins felt the Free State Govt. wasn't doing enough to make advances towards re-unification.Before Collins was murdered he was supplying IRA units in the North,both pro- and anti-Treaty,with weapons.Once Collins was dead,this stopped and focus was taken off N.I.FS officers didn't like this.

2.The FS Army had 55,000 personnel towards the end of the Civil War.The Govt. downsized it to a peacetime force of roughly 25,000.Not many Army men were happy about this.

3.Many officers wanted the Army Council of the Free State Army disbanded.Richard Mulcahy,COS and MforD,was a member if I'm not mistaken.As a result he was forced to resign.

The Army Mutiny was an important event because it signalled the Govt taking control of the Army,which could've posed a threat to the Stability of the country.Also,many of Collins supporters were ousted,which made things easier for DeValera when he came to power in 1932.He could now put his supporters into the Army without much resistance.Hence,the 'Fianna Failisation' of the Army(Cathal Brugha barracks,Austin Stack barracks ...)

McArmalite

eroo wrote: »

The Army Mutiny:

1.Many officers who sided with Collins felt the Free State Govt. wasn't doing enough to make advances towards re-unification.Before Collins was murdered he was supplying IRA units in the North,both pro- and anti-Treaty,with weapons.Once Collins was dead,this stopped and focus was taken off N.I.FS officers didn't like this.

2.The FS Army had 55,000 personnel towards the end of the Civil War.The Govt. downsized it to a peacetime force of roughly 25,000.Not many Army men were happy about this.

3.Many officers wanted the Army Council of the Free State Army disbanded.Richard Mulcahy,COS and MforD,was a member if I'm not mistaken.As a result he was forced to resign.

The Army Mutiny was an important event because it signalled the Govt taking control of the Army,which could've posed a threat to the Stability of the country.Also,many of Collins supporters were ousted,which made things easier for DeValera when he came to power in 1932.He could now put his supporters into the Army without much resistance.Hence,the 'Fianna Failisation' of the Army(Cathal Brugha barracks,Austin Stack barracks ...)

Good stuff there eroo, concurs with the OP regarding some of the politicking and skullduggery going on in the background. Sadly, things never change.

As for 'Fianna Failisation':), that's a term I'll have to remember, the 'cute hoors' and all that.

The_Banker

Apologies for resurrecting a 2 year old thread but does anyone know if there was ever a book written about the Army Mutiny of 1924?

who the fug

What was the IRB role in this?

The_Banker

The_Banker wrote: »

Apologies for resurrecting a 2 year old thread but does anyone know if there was ever a book written about the Army Mutiny of 1924?

"Almost a Rebellion: the Irish Army Mutiny of 1924"

author: Valiulis, Maryann G

who the fug

who the fug wrote: »

What was the IRB role in this?

I think there was a general resentment among IRB members, who largely supported the treaty, because of Collins, and resented the placement of ex-British army officers within the Irish Army, this was the case with my grandfather anyway.

who the fug

Deleted User wrote: »

I think there was a general resentment among IRB members, who largely supported the treaty, because of Collins, and resented the placement of ex-British army officers within the Irish Army, this was the case with my grandfather anyway.

Dursey

Thanks for the book, have put it on order

heartofarebel

I have only been using boards now for a short while and have just come across the thread. My great uncle was Vinny Byrne who was the last surviving member of the Squad. He took part in the Mutiny of '24.

They took over a building in Parnell Square, which was later used as the meeting house for the 1916-21 club, which he was also the chairman of. His main reason and many of the others who took part was because of the then government, especially Kevin O'Higgins trying to forge closer links to England even going as close as changing the Tricolour as our flag to the blue and gold harped flag of St. Patrick.

If anybody had relatives that were involved in the times and wants to know if they took part in the Mutiny, I have a clipping from a newspaper at the time that gives a full list of the men who resigned their commision form the army after the Mutiny.

It's great to see so many people interested in our history. History in this country has often been swept under the carpet to keep other people happy. I don't think that history is thought as much in schools now as it should be. History has made the world what it is today, good or bad.

Denerick

1924 was an interesting year. Its a pity that it also led to the demise of one of the founding fathers of Irish Democracy (Richard Mulcahy)

Many of the Free State officers rightfully felt let down that the promises made about moving towards unification of Ireland were going nowhere. They felt that having fought a terrible war to secure the integrity of the new State, they were being brushed aside and Irelands national aspirations were overlooked by the political classes.

From a moral and democratic perspective, the government were more than correct in squashing the mutiny, as the last 5 years had demonstrated the dangers of men with guns having the right to hold the democratic verdict of the people to ransom through sheer violence. But the individuals involved were moved by a higher purpose, but were ultimately flawed. This is the great human tragedy involved in both the Civil War and the Army Mutiny. I think the mutiny was a hangover of the civil war, an afterglow of bitterness from a group of men alienated after having to fight a civil war against former comrades.

PatsytheNazi

Denerick wrote: »

1924 was an interesting year. Its a pity that it also led to the demise of one of the founding fathers of Irish Democracy (Richard Mulcahy)

Many of the Free State officers rightfully felt let down that the promises made about moving towards unification of Ireland were going nowhere. They felt that having fought a terrible war to secure the integrity of the new State, they were being brushed aside and Irelands national aspirations were overlooked by the political classes.

From a moral and democratic perspective, the government were more than correct in squashing the mutiny, as the last 5 years had demonstrated the dangers of men with guns having the right to hold the democratic verdict of the people to ransom through sheer violence. But the individuals involved were moved by a higher purpose, but were ultimately flawed. This is the great human tragedy involved in both the Civil War and the Army Mutiny. I think the mutiny was a hangover of the civil war, an afterglow of bitterness from a group of men alienated after having to fight a civil war against former comrades.

Was not the democratic right of the people of Ireland denied by sheer violence and the threat of more of it ?

Denerick

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Was not the democratic right of the people of Ireland denied by sheer violence and the threat of more of it ?

What are you alluding to? The Treaty was ratified by a national vote, most were content with it bar a 'virtuous' minority. Those people asserted their elitist claims in arms, against the expressed wishes of the people.

This is why patriots like Kevin O'Higgins and Richard Mulcahy are the founding fathers of Irish Democracy. They had to do unpalatable things, but these were unpalatable times.

heartofarebel

I completely agree with you that they must have felt totally let down by the political establishment of the time. They had fought a nasty war and an equally vicious civil war. The Mutiny had no chance of success and they knew that but I think that it was only meant as a token gesture.

How many times in the course of world history has the people who fought the wars been let down by their political masters who went on to become the exact replica of what they had fought against.

1916 happened against the wishes of the people. The prisoners were abused by the public after the rising. If the rising didn't happen, would we still be under British Rule? Where would our democratic rights be now? I don't condone violence but in some cases no matter how horrible and tastless it is, violence is the only answer.

Denerick

heartofarebel wrote: »

I completely agree with you that they must have felt totally let down by the political establishment of the time. They had fought a nasty war and an equally vicious civil war. The Mutiny had no chance of success and they knew that but I think that it was only meant as a token gesture.

How many times in the course of world history has the people who fought the wars been let down by their political masters who went on to become the exact replica of what they had fought against.

1916 happened against the wishes of the people. The prisoners were abused by the public after the rising. If the rising didn't happen, would we still be under British Rule? Where would our democratic rights be now? I don't condone violence but in some cases no matter how horrible and tastless it is, violence is the only answer.

I'm not prepared to go into 1916, I've sparred with many forumers about it before.

What I will say is that at times violence is legitimate, but most of the time its not. Some of the proponents of revolutionary violence would have been better off getting a girlfriend and chilling out. Thats what it amounts to most of the time.

As for the Civil War generation, they didn't even have the luxury of ambiguity when the anti treaty side launched their rebellion. It was a bad time for all concerned though, so its probably better not to castigate them too much, for fear of losing perspective.

brianthebard

This is way off topic. Mod.

heartofarebel

Some do jump on the bandwagon of violence just for the sake of it. History always has many sides to it. Everybody has their own view depending on which side they fall on.

In the end who's to say who's right or wrong.

siniman

heartofarebel wrote: »

If anybody had relatives that were involved in the times and wants to know if they took part in the Mutiny, I have a clipping from a newspaper at the time that gives a full list of the men who resigned their commision form the army after the Mutiny.

.

Hi there - i know it has been quite a while since your post but i was hoping you could let me know whether my grandfather resigned his commission because of the mutiny - he was a lt col we think at the time of the mutiny and appears to have left the army around that time.... would appreciate if you could get in touch re this.

heartofarebel

siniman wrote: »

Hi there - i know it has been quite a while since your post but i was hoping you could let me know whether my grandfather resigned his commission because of the mutiny - he was a lt col we think at the time of the mutiny and appears to have left the army around that time.... would appreciate if you could get in touch re this.

Hi Siniman, can you give me your grandfathers name. I don't have the clipping any more but I can contact the chap who has it. It might take a little while to comeback to you but I will.

siniman

thanks so much - have sent on a private message (hopefully) with the details. am new enough to this posting lark so may not have done it correctly.

Morlar

siniman wrote: »

thanks so much - have sent on a private message (hopefully) with the details. am new enough to this posting lark so may not have done it correctly.

Hi Sinman - I am the new owner of that collection of documents, photos and scrapbook :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/

Coming hopefully January 2011; a document, photograph & postcard collection including a large independence era scrapbook which belonged to the youngest 'Apostle' of Michael Collins' legendary Squad - Comdt. Vincent Byrne II Bn, Dublin Brigade, Old IRA. This collection contains documents, letters, cards and notes including an 'Irish War News', flyers, leaflets and believed to be unpublished photographs of the Rising Rebels at Stafford Gaol before transport to Frongoch. Irish War of independence and Civil war era letters right up to some colour photographs of commemorations of the 1970's and 1980's.

as you can see I have not managed to put it online yet though I am working on it. *If you pm me your Grandfathers name I will check for that particular cutting and try to get back to you with an answer in the next couple of days.

Cheers,

* actually now that I think of it I will post that full clipping here for anyone who is interested in it - this evening hopefully.

Notorious97

Morlar wrote: »

Hi Sinman - I am the new owner of that collection of documents, photos and scrapbook :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/



as you can see I have not managed to put it online yet though I am working on it. *If you pm me your Grandfathers name I will check for that particular cutting and try to get back to you with an answer in the next couple of days.

Cheers,

* actually now that I think of it I will post that full clipping here for anyone who is interested in it - this evening hopefully.

Thanks if you do post it, id be really interested to see anything on Vinny Byrne also, hes the grandfather of a friend i was in school with, always been an interesting figure.

siniman

Morlar wrote: »

Hi Sinman - I am the new owner of that collection of documents, photos and scrapbook :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/



as you can see I have not managed to put it online yet though I am working on it. *If you pm me your Grandfathers name I will check for that particular cutting and try to get back to you with an answer in the next couple of days.

Cheers,

* actually now that I think of it I will post that full clipping here for anyone who is interested in it - this evening hopefully.

thats great - thanks! will pm the name just in case. appreciate your assistance.

Morlar

Here is the one in question for anyone who is interested in it ;

siniman

Thank you so much for that! No sign of him! Will keep going with my research and i will send on that other document when i get it. thanks again.

Liam O Meara

heartofarebel wrote: »

I have only been using boards now for a short while and have just come across the thread. My great uncle was Vinny Byrne who was the last surviving member of the Squad. He took part in the Mutiny of '24.

They took over a building in Parnell Square, which was later used as the meeting house for the 1916-21 club, which he was also the chairman of. His main reason and many of the others who took part was because of the then government, especially Kevin O'Higgins trying to forge closer links to England even going as close as changing the Tricolour as our flag to the blue and gold harped flag of St. Patrick.

If anybody had relatives that were involved in the times and wants to know if they took part in the Mutiny, I have a clipping from a newspaper at the time that gives a full list of the men who resigned their commision form the army after the Mutiny.

It's great to see so many people interested in our history. History in this country has often been swept under the carpet to keep other people happy. I don't think that history is thought as much in schools now as it should be. History has made the world what it is today, good or bad.

Hi two questions. Have you heard of William Fitzgerald of free state army? Have you or anyone on here any photo of funeral cortage comdt Tom Keogh

Morlar

Liam O Meara wrote: »

Have you or anyone on here any photo of funeral cortage comdt Tom Keogh

I have these 2 not great funeral cortege pictures from the Vinny Byrne scrapbook. They were very good friends and there is more Tom Keogh information including documents about the Wexford Expeditionary force and so on. Though I am not ready to put them all online yet. Here are the 2 not great Funeral cortege shots :

Liam O Meara

Yes I have that one from the Freemans Journal- there must be an original somewhere. My copy slightly better

James Delaney

To Gran Nephew of Vinny Byrne.

Hi my name is James Delaney.
Michael McDonnell (I'm sure u know the name) is a non blood 'relation' (best description that comes to mind) to me. My Gran Aunt Joan was married to Michael's Brother Dan.

I have read website on Vinny Byrne and found it contained great detail.

Would like to meet u to discuss more and exchange whatever little knowledge I have.

I understand M McDonnell had an input into putting down the mutiny and I would like to find out more details from youselff and any readers who have contributed to this thread.


MOD EDIT- Dont put personal details on public forum. People can send you a private message if necessary.

James Delaney

Hi.
Thank you for photo's.
please see my earlier post today on this thread.

I omitted to mention - although u all probably know - Tom Keogh was Step Brother to Michael McDonnell.
regards
MOD EDIT- Dont put personal details on public forum. People can send you a private message if necessary.

walrusgumble

Shutuplaura wrote: »

What was it exactly? I assume it was a reaction of an officer corps which was loyal to a recently deceased Mick Collins to the realization that the new free state army wasn't going to be used to help unify the country. Another side of it I've heard that it was a reaction to the downsizing of the army by soldiers worried about loosing their jobs in an uncertain time. How widespread was the mutiny, what form did it take and was there ever a danger it would lead to a military coup? Did it have any lasting effect on the governments attitude to the army?

The Treaty dictated that the Army was to be downsized. People got nose out of joint, especially those soldiers who had being there since 1916 and / or The Tan War and Civil War, only to see former British Soliders or cowards who stayed away when they were needed, keeping their spots

Some were also annoyed about the lack of progress on the North.

walrusgumble

McArmalite wrote: »

Hi pal, watch yourself there.

Or what?

McArmalite wrote: »

I'm far from being a public house “republican”.

Funny you don't quote "public house". So you are far from a "Republican", but you are definitely a "public house" ........spoofer?

McArmalite wrote: »

I'm not going to claim I've ever been in the Provos as I've been well aware that I wouldn't be up to it,

That and, you would be admitting to a crime.

McArmalite wrote: »

but I've done my fair share of leafleting, marching, meetings, petitions etc

What? For the Provo's, that actually is a crime too.

Leafleting, marching, stamp licking.... is there any ends to your talent?

McArmalite wrote: »

starting from my late teens with the Hunger Strikes, then campaigns such as anti extradition, Dublin bombings, Birmingham six/Guildford four, opening border roads, Time to Go campaign, as well as picketing the Zionist embassy, pro divorce, anti Iraq war etc, etc.

But the suits never asked for your views on policy issues , right? Just a sheep?

McArmalite wrote: »

I have no doubts who is the one who sits on his ar$e in a public house spouting sh!te.

Many of them actually also march, leaftlet , sell An Phoblacht (and dodgy smokes), attend protests.....

whisky_galore

walrusgumble wrote: »

Or what?

I wouldn't bother, that poster would have got the road a long time ago the way he was carrying himself on, unless he's back under an assumed name. :pac:

kabakuyu

walrusgumble wrote: »

Or what?



Funny you don't quote "public house". So you are far from a "Republican", but you are definitely a "public house" ........spoofer?



That and, you would be admitting to a crime.



What? For the Provo's, that actually is a crime too.

Leafleting, marching, stamp licking.... is there any ends to your talent?



But the suits never asked for your views on policy issues , right? Just a sheep?



Many of them actually also march, leaftlet , sell An Phoblacht (and dodgy smokes), attend protests.....

Do you do know his posts are six years old and he has been banned.