Christianity and Vegetarianism

raah!

This is somethign which I have been interested in for quite some time. As far as I know there are a few passages in the bible which say we must take care of animals, in genesis and the like.

Proverbs 12:10 tells us, "A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." This is the best I could find in a short time.

Anyway, nowadays it's completely unnessecary for us to eat animals, there are plenty of alternatives. Now it says animals are there for us to use. But surely killing a cat for fun wouldn't be a proper interpretation of this. And since we dont need animal meat to survive, we are really only eating meat for fun, and therefore killing animals for fun.

So perhaps, as christians, people should abstain from eating meat unless we have to.

If any of ye have another take on it I would like to hear it. Elsewise I might just become a vegetarian (although it is was not a biblically motivated decision, I just thought I'd come on here and push my beliefs on ye , nah I'm jokin' about)

ozt9vdujny3srf

I hate you.

raah!

ridildy raah!

Nice edit, the bold helps. I'm really hurting now.

why

kelly1

raah! wrote: »

This is somethign which I have been interested in for quite some time. As far as I know there are a few passages in the bible which say we must take care of animals, in genesis and the like.

Proverbs 12:10 tells us, "A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." This is the best I could find in a short time.

Anyway, nowadays it's completely unnessecary for us to eat animals, there are plenty of alternatives. Now it says animals are there for us to use. But surely killing a cat for fun wouldn't be a proper interpretation of this. And since we dont need animal meat to survive, we are really only eating meat for fun, and therefore killing animals for fun.

So perhaps, as christians, people should abstain from eating meat unless we have to.

If any of ye have another take on it I would like to hear it. Elsewise I might just become a vegetarian (although it is was not a biblically motivated decission, I just thought I'd come on here and push my beliefs on ye , nah I'm jokin' about)

Hello raah, welcome to our forum.

I used to be vegetarian and in fact I was into macrobiotics for a good while. Anyway I eventually realized that it was only a distraction from God. There is nothing in the bible to say that eating meat is wrong. See what Timothy has to say on the subject:

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, 3 Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected that is received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Jesus also had this to say:

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment?

i.e. don't worry too much about what you eat. Obviously God doens't want us to be gluttons or eat things which damage our health. And don't let an obsession with what you eat hinder your relationship with Christ.

God bless,
Noel.

MrPudding

And don't forget to live forever you have to eat the body and drink the blood of christ. That is kind of hard if you are a veggie.

MrP

kelly1

MrPudding wrote: »

And don't forget to live forever you have to eat the body and drink the blood of christ. That is kind of hard if you are a veggie.

MrP

Aren't you the witty one.

AtomicHorror

kelly1 wrote: »

Aren't you the witty one.

If they're literally flesh and blood, he's completely right. That has implications. Accusations of carnivorism is the least of your worries...

Vegetarianism is a noble concept, but it's not practical for many. The effort required by vegetarians just to remain healthy means that theirs tends to become a diet-centered lifestyle. Perhaps in time we can find ways to make it compatible with a wider variety of lifestyles, but for now it's too much trouble for most.

MrPudding

kelly1 wrote: »

Aren't you the witty one.

I was not trying to be witty. But I will take this as a compliment. Thank you.

MrP

Mark Hamill

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Vegetarianism is a noble concept, but it's not practical for many. The effort required by vegetarians just to remain healthy means that theirs tends to become a diet-centered lifestyle. Perhaps in time we can find ways to make it compatible with a wider variety of lifestyles, but for now it's too much trouble for most.

This isn't true, I've been a vegetarian for about 15 years now (no meat/chicken/fish, but I will drink milk/eat cheese) and I've never taken any vitamin or mineral supliments or needed to. In fact for the past five years I've trained in submission wrestling and mma (ie. very strenuous sports) very regularly, and my diet has never ever caused me problems (and this is a diet where for past few years I have rarely even eaten vegetables, I mostly eat breads of different types). Almost all of my effort is in checking wether or not all the food I eat is actually vegetarian (you'd be surprised what kinds of meat ends up in what kinds of food). I think most people don't turn vegetarian simply because they like meat too much not because they're bodies cant handle it (although I admit that it might be hard for older people whose bodies are used to, and probably dependant on, the nutrients from a meat based diet, to change to vegetarianism, younger people would no proplems, health wise).

seamus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The effort required by vegetarians just to remain healthy means that theirs tends to become a diet-centered lifestyle.

You're probably thinking of veganism. Vegetarianism doesn't require all that much effort or concentration.

crotalus667

Here are my thoughts on the subject “Shalt not kill” Jesus offered himself up and god accepted so consuming the blood and flesh of Christ is condoned by god , as for other meats I think it’s pretty clear don’t do it means don’t do it , which if you where to live strictly by it would mean veganisim not vegaterianisim,

For info google the vegan society

BrianCalgary

MrPudding wrote: »

And don't forget to live forever you have to eat the body and drink the blood of christ. That is kind of hard if you are a veggie.

MrP

Another brilliant post placed by Mr P which really brings the discussion to a new level

BrianCalgary

crotalus667 wrote: »

Here are my thoughts on the subject “Shalt not kill” Jesus offered himself up and god accepted so consuming the blood and flesh of Christ is condoned by god , as for other meats I think it’s pretty clear don’t do it means don’t do it , which if you where to live strictly by it would mean veganisim not vegaterianisim,

For info google the vegan society

So how do you reconcile this view with the quote from I Timothy offered us by kelly1?

kelly1

crotalus667 wrote: »

Here are my thoughts on the subject “Shalt not kill” Jesus offered himself up and god accepted so consuming the blood and flesh of Christ is condoned by god , as for other meats I think it’s pretty clear don’t do it means don’t do it , which if you where to live strictly by it would mean veganisim not vegaterianisim,

For info google the vegan society

Surely "Thou shalt not kill" only applies to killing humans? Where do you draw the line? Mice, insects, bacteria or viruses?

Malari

kelly1 wrote: »

Surely "Thou shalt not kill" only applies to killing humans? Where do you draw the line? Mice, insects, bacteria or viruses?

I think "thou shalt not kill" actually drew the line at Jews. Anyone outside that in-group was pretty much free game at the time. Same goes for "love thy neighbour". The meaning has obviously been adjusted as it became unacceptable to kill anyone.

nozzferrahhtoo

Have you considered converting to Jainism? They beleive all animals have a soul so they cant eat anything or wear anything coming from meat. The really serious ones can be seen wearing face masks to cover for the fear they might accidently have a fly fly in there and get swallowed.

crotalus667

BrianCalgary wrote: »

So how do you reconcile this view with the quote from I Timothy offered us by kelly1?

let's face it the bible is full of contradictions

Surely "Thou shalt not kill" only applies to killing humans? Where do you draw the line? Mice, insects, bacteria or viruses?

where you draw the line depend's on how commited you are there are some hindu monks that sweep the floor as they walk to avoid killing an insects

MrPudding

Why thank you Brian. I do try.

MrP

Tar.Aldarion

Feel free to visit the vegetarian forum raah! :-p

AtomicHorror wrote: »

If they're literally flesh and blood, he's completely right. That has implications. Accusations of carnivorism is the least of your worries...

Vegetarianism is a noble concept, but it's not practical for many. The effort required by vegetarians just to remain healthy means that theirs tends to become a diet-centered lifestyle. Perhaps in time we can find ways to make it compatible with a wider variety of lifestyles, but for now it's too much trouble for most.

People are probably too lazy, as a vegetarian with a vegan girlfriend, it is realllly easy. I mean come on, there are even a lot of fake meats that taste great. Admittedly it is harder for a vegan and some thought would have to be put in, but vegetarianism is easy. This is coming from me, who used to only eat meat. :-)
I imagine a lot of it comes down to people just not caring.

I would have no faith in a religion that maintains that something that can feel pain and so on is here for our use and amusement, I would have much more respect for one that was of the opinion that animals should be treated kindly.

AtomicHorror

Mark Hamill wrote: »

This isn't true, I've been a vegetarian for about 15 years now (no meat/chicken/fish, but I will drink milk/eat cheese) and I've never taken any vitamin or mineral supliments or needed to. In fact for the past five years I've trained in submission wrestling and mma (ie. very strenuous sports) very regularly, and my diet has never ever caused me problems (and this is a diet where for past few years I have rarely even eaten vegetables, I mostly eat breads of different types). Almost all of my effort is in checking wether or not all the food I eat is actually vegetarian (you'd be surprised what kinds of meat ends up in what kinds of food). I think most people don't turn vegetarian simply because they like meat too much not because they're bodies cant handle it (although I admit that it might be hard for older people whose bodies are used to, and probably dependant on, the nutrients from a meat based diet, to change to vegetarianism, younger people would no proplems, health wise).

We live in a world where people are too lazy (or too busy) to check the fat and sugar content of their foods, let alone make the effort to eat vegetarian. If you're healthy enough to do that and do strenuous training then you have my respect, but I doubt you'd be the norm.

seamus wrote: »

You're probably thinking of veganism. Vegetarianism doesn't require all that much effort or concentration.

I'm aware of the difference.

Mark Hamill

crotalus667 wrote: »

Here are my thoughts on the subject “Shalt not kill” Jesus offered himself up and god accepted so consuming the blood and flesh of Christ is condoned by god , as for other meats I think it’s pretty clear don’t do it means don’t do it , which if you where to live strictly by it would mean veganisim not vegaterianisim,

For info google the vegan society

Why do you think it wouldn't mean vegetarianism? (just out of curiosity). Vegetarians don't eat meat.

AtomicHorror wrote:

We live in a world where people are too lazy (or too busy) to check the fat and sugar content of their foods, let alone make the effort to eat vegetarian.

True, but its not really hard at all to be vegetarian, nearly every restaurant has vegetarian options on the menu (its harder for me than most vegetarians because I'm such a fussy b*st*rd when it comes to food) and if people became vegetarian they wouldn't be able to eat a lot of the fast food that is the source of the fat and sugar that makes them unhealthy

AtomicHorror wrote:

If you're healthy enough to do that and do strenuous training then you have my respect, but I doubt you'd be the norm.

Probably not the norm at all

raah!

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello raah, welcome to our forum.

I used to be vegetarian and in fact I was into macrobiotics for a good while. Anyway I eventually realized that it was only a distraction from God. There is nothing in the bible to say that eating meat is wrong. See what Timothy has to say on the subject:



Jesus also had this to say:



i.e. don't worry too much about what you eat. Obviously God doens't want us to be gluttons or eat things which damage our health. And don't let an obsession with what you eat hinder your relationship with Christ.

God bless,
Noel.

Well that's certainly alot of biblical evidence against it . Still though, I think those things were said at a time when it wasn't really possible to be a vegetarian without becoming malnourished and all that. Similarily to how the bible has instructions on how to keep your slaves. It was normal to have slaves back then, as it was also to eat meat. But nowadays we have no reason to have slaves, and no reason to eat meat.

The bible doesn't seem to go into animal rights or any of that in much detail though

P.S no I have never considered converting to jainism, although it sounds like a nice religion

PDN

Whereas there are plenty of Bible verses that speak about eating meat, there are, AFAIK, no verses that prohibit meat eating.

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:1-6)

Sangre

PDN wrote: »

Whereas there are plenty of Bible verses that speak about eating meat, there are, AFAIK, no verses that prohibit meat eating.

To play devil advocates, couldn't the exact same thing be said about slavery? Doesn't mean its a good thing.

(correct me if im wrong).

PDN

Sangre wrote: »

To play devil advocates, couldn't the exact same thing be said about slavery? Doesn't mean its a good thing.

(correct me if im wrong).

There are no New Testament verses that exhort people to practice slavery, or indeed that state slavery to be OK. However, there are such verses as regards eating meat:

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (Acts 10:9-15)

He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:6)

For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (Mark 7:19)

So, for slavery to be a parallel to meat eating, we would have to find passages in the New Testament that say the following:

"Go on, Peter, buy yourself a slave or two!"

"He who keeps slaves does so unto the Lord"

"In saying this Jesus declared the keeping of slaves to be OK"

You won't find them.

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:6)

Funny how you quote this and bold the part you did, while ignoring the second half of the sentence which says "he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God". This means you can abstain (from eating meat) and still give thanks to the Lord. That one sentence, I think, shows you can be vegetarian (or not) and use it as a way to be closer to God, so maybe people should forget about the religious aspect of being vegetarian and make their decision based on health?

neuro-praxis

If you think the bible is trustworthy, then it will be quite clear that the bible advocates eating meat, right from Genesis to Revelation. Meat is an important part of many Judeo-Christian celebrations.

If you think that the bible is untrustworthy, however, there is no need to even consider this question. (I suggest reading The New Testament and the People of God by N.T. Wright. It will take you about 6 months but you'll have a historical grasp of scripture by the end.)

However the bible also advocates stewardship of (care for) all creation - meaning humans, animals and the earth. This says to me that Christians ought to try and consume only ethically sourced products.

Also, after even just 10 minutes reading about the effects on the planet of over-farming anyone can see that a responsible rate of meat consumption is probably somewhere at 2-3 times per week - not 2-3 times per day as we carnivores typically do it.

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Funny how you quote this and bold the part you did, while ignoring the second half of the sentence which says "he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God". This means you can abstain (from eating meat) and still give thanks to the Lord. That one sentence, I think, shows you can be vegetarian (or not) and use it as a way to be closer to God, so maybe people should forget about the religious aspect of being vegetarian and make their decision based on health?

It's not funny at all. The reason I highlighted the part I did was because it plainly contradicts the view expressed by another poster that eating meat is wrong. If someone was arguing that vegetarianism was wrong then I would have highlighted the latter part of the sentence in order to contradict that particular error.

I agree with you that people should base their decision about eating meat on health issues (and also issues of lifestyle and taste) rather than trying to distort the Bible to suit their pet hobby horse.

PDN

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Have you considered converting to Jainism? They beleive all animals have a soul so they cant eat anything or wear anything coming from meat. The really serious ones can be seen wearing face masks to cover for the fear they might accidently have a fly fly in there and get swallowed.

I believe that animals have a soul, but it doesn't stop me from eating meat.

raah!

I was not trying to "distort" the bible in any way. As I said I was simply interested in how christianity viewed vegetarianism.

As I said also, I think eating meat is a moral issue not a health issue, that is why I was interested in what the bible had to say on it

raah!

neuro-praxis wrote: »

If you think the bible is trustworthy, then it will be quite clear that the bible advocates eating meat, right from Genesis to Revelation. Meat is an important part of many Judeo-Christian celebrations.

If you think that the bible is untrustworthy, however, there is no need to even consider this question. (I suggest reading The New Testament and the People of God by N.T. Wright. It will take you about 6 months but you'll have a historical grasp of scripture by the end.)

However the bible also advocates stewardship of (care for) all creation - meaning humans, animals and the earth. This says to me that Christians ought to try and consume only ethically sourced products.

Also, after even just 10 minutes reading about the effects on the planet of over-farming anyone can see that a responsible rate of meat consumption is probably somewhere at 2-3 times per week - not 2-3 times per day as we carnivores typically do it.

That "stewardship" was basically why I was saying that maybe there was a biblical reason for vegetarianism.

Now if it's not ethical to kill a cat for fun, or to hunt things for fun, which I think someone here had a quote showing the bible says it isn't (or maybe I saw that on some site). Then using the same logic you can say it's not ethical to eat something purely for taste, as this is the same as killing it for fun.

No need for ye all to get bitchy, I am not attacking the bible, I was simply curious

neuro-praxis

I wasn't in the least bitchy; I made what I thought was a sincere and helpful response.

There is no argument that can be made from the bible to say that meat-eating is wrong. End of.

Plenty of Christians choose to not eat meat for other reasons, not biblical ones.

raah!

I was mainly focusing on christianity and vegetarianism. Since christians derive their morality mainly from the bible, and since there are certain gaps in the bible (slavery for example), christians will have to fill in these gaps to act morally.

Of course I wasn't talking about a fundamentalists interpretation. Now since the bible hints at stewardship for animals, we can assume that killing them for fun wasn't what it had in mind. In the same way the bible speaks of loving your neighbour we were able to assume that having slaves and stuff like that is also immoral

Fanny Cradock

raah! wrote: »

No need for ye all to get bitchy, I am not attacking the bible, I was simply curious

I didn't see any bitchiness in the reply.

raah!

The comment about "distorting the bible to suit your pet hobby horse" was mainly what I was refering to. As far as neuro's post what I found bitchy was the "if you don't think it's trustworthy"

Fanny Cradock

She was presenting both sides of the argument. I didn't intend to dissect the post. I'm sorry I mentioned it now.

Move along folks. Nothing to see here.