Bus smart cards

ilovemarmite

Hi

They have just introduced these machines for smartcards in last week or so on routes near me 46a and 75, where do you buy the smart cards from though, and what way do they work

thanks

liz

KC61

At the moment the following tickets contain a chip that can be read by the smart card reader:

Annual staff pass
Annual adult bus only
Annual bus and rail (if issued by Dublin Bus)
Annual bus and luas (if issued by Dublin Bus)
Monthly adult bus only
Monthly bus and rail (if issued by Dublin Bus)


You don't even have to take the ticket out of its wallet any more - just hold it up to the reader and it should emit a long beep to signify that it's ok. If it beeps three times, take the ticket out of the wallet and hold it up to the reader.

There are no smartcards as such yet - it's just the existing prepaid tickets. The rest of the prepaid ticket range are going to be rolled out with smartchips in the coming months.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

At the moment the following tickets contain a chip that can be read by the smart card reader:

Annual staff pass
Annual adult bus only
Annual bus and rail (if issued by Dublin Bus)
Monthly adult bus only
Monthly bus and rail (if issued by Dublin Bus)

You don't even have to take the ticket out of its wallet any more - just hold it up to the reader and it should emit a long beep to signify that it's ok. If it beeps three times, take the ticket out of the wallet and hold it up to the reader.

You may not even have to take your wallet out of your pocket :eek:

armada104

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You may not even have to take your wallet out of your pocket :eek:

RTDH, my apologies for being a smartarse in the other thread. I didn't explain myself properly. I appreciate your concern about the use of RFID in general, but its use in prepaid tickets by Dublin Bus is not something that strikes me as sinister or underhand. Monitoring the travel patterns of people anonymously could provide useful data for DB in routes and timetabling.

I realise we have to be careful about letting this technology creep into our daily lives but posts such as the above do your argument no favours. They just come across as scaremongering. And please stop using that effing smiley!

Run_to_da_hills

armada104 wrote: »

RTDH, my apologies for being a smartarse in the other thread. I didn't explain myself properly. I appreciate your concern about the use of RFID in general, but its use in prepaid tickets by Dublin Bus is not something that strikes me as sinister or underhand. Monitoring the travel patterns of people anonymously could provide useful data for DB in routes and timetabling.

I realise we have to be careful about letting this technology creep into our daily lives but posts such as the above do your argument no favours. They just come across as scaremongering. And please stop using that effing smiley!

Just spending the last weekend in London dose not help me .

KC61

Run to the hills, I realise you have your concerns, but I'd have to ask can you not keep them to one thread?

The OP just asked how it worked, i.e. the transport implications, not whatever "big brother" implications that you might think there will be?

SteM

KC61 wrote: »

At the moment the following tickets contain a chip that can be read by the smart card reader:

Annual staff pass
Annual adult bus only
Annual bus and rail (if issued by Dublin Bus)
Monthly adult bus only
Monthly bus and rail (if issued by Dublin Bus)

You don't even have to take the ticket out of its wallet any more - just hold it up to the reader and it should emit a long beep to signify that it's ok. If it beeps three times, take the ticket out of the wallet and hold it up to the reader.

There are no smartcards as such yet - it's just the existing prepaid tickets. The rest of the prepaid ticket range are going to be rolled out with smartchips in the coming months.

My Annual bus and luas ticket does too.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

Run to the hills, I realise you have your concerns, but I'd have to ask can you not keep them to one thread?

The OP just asked how it worked, i.e. the transport implications, not whatever "big brother" implications that you might think there will be?

Ok Ill explain to the OP EXACTLY how smart cards work with a simple breakdown of my Itinerary of last weekend in London.

Using my Oyster card,
...............................................................................................
Last year
12/11 09:49 Add Prepay Liverpool St 10.00
27/01 22:26 Add Prepay London Bridge 10.00
30/01 09.07Liverpool St Tott Ct Rd 1.50
30/1 10.34 Tott Ct Rd - Victoria 1.50
..................................................................................

Last weekend
14/06 20:19 Marylebone Tott Ct Rd 1.50
14/06 20:21 Add Prepay Tott Ct Rd 10.00
14/06 22:11 Oxford Circus - London Bridge 1.50
15/06 05:20 Bus boarding route N343 .90
15/06 07:22 Tott Ct Road - Liverpool St 1.50
15/06 07.51 Pre Pay Entry- Liverpool St 4.00
15/06 09.09 Unstarted - Harlesden 4.00
15/06 10.14 Rejected Entry (Code36)

Current pre pay balance 0.90

Looking at my account from a print out I requested after "an error" where I was overcharged the full rate of a jurney because of a faulty touch pad at turnstyle at Liverpool st that incidently let me through. Had I not pointed this out to a ticket warden I would have been deducted this money out of my account unknowingly.

With the press of a button the "system" knows exactly Where you are as soon as you touch in or touch out.
If the System wants to know who it is it is very simple, just take footage from any of the multitudes of CCTV that are beaming down on turn styles, touch pads and through out the stations.

You cannot get smart cards explained more clearly than this.

L1011

And all this information would be possible with magnetic stripe prepay tickets, RTDH. Absolutely all of it.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

And all this information would be possible with magnetic stripe prepay tickets, RTDH. Absolutely all of it.

Mag strips are a lead up to RFID cards. Most mag strip based tickets were cardboard based and designed for short term or disposable use. Intigration and computerisation has only really been implicated with the introduction of RFID and smart cards. The whole idea of using a plastic based smart card is thats its durable, stays with the person indefinitally and can also have a multitude of uses. I.E. It can be used as a cash card which is the bit I don't like at all because it is leading us straight into the cashless society. http://www.barclaycard-onepulse.co.uk/cardDetail.html

SickCert

SteM wrote: »

My Annual bus and luas ticket does too.

If the ticket has a round bulls-eye logo on the right side similar to that on the reader it should work.

An earlier poster said you may not have to take your wallet from your pocket? True one of my passengers (84x) just held his suit breast pocket at the machine.

Run_to_da_hills

SickCert wrote: »

If the ticket has a round bulls-eye logo on the right side similar to that on the reader it should work.

An earlier poster said you may not have to take your wallet from your pocket? True one of my passengers (84x) just held his suit breast pocket at the machine.

I did not take my wallet out of my pocket last weekend when using my oyster card, hands in pocket walked close to the tuch pad and it activated. I believe future ticket inspectors will point a RFID wand at a passengers wallet ot jacket to see if they have valid tickets without even seeing the ticket.

markpb

SickCert wrote: »

An earlier poster said you may not have to take your wallet from your pocket? True one of my passengers (84x) just held his suit breast pocket at the machine.

What height was your passenger to be able to do that!?

dereko1969

have them on the 15b's now too, makes it less of a worry about the reader chewing up your annual card!

Run_to_da_hills

markpb wrote: »

What height was your passenger to be able to do that!?

Simple. hands in jacket pocket holding your wallet, wave it over scanner. works every time, advantage, no one physically sees your wallet, I.e. deters thieves and pick pockets.

astrofool

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Simple. hands in jacket pocket holding your wallet, wave it over scanner. works every time, advantage, no one physically sees your wallet, I.e. deters thieves and pick pockets.

So, are you for or against smart cards?

Run_to_da_hills

astrofool wrote: »

So, are you for or against smart cards?

To a point. I have been using Oyster cards for over three years now, mainly because it is cheaper, ie 1.50 for a 1 zone trip in the underground rather than 4.00 and they also cap themselves once you reach a figure during the day. They also have the advantage that you don't need to Q up for tickets.

No doubt they are a convenience and a money saver but the infringement potential that they have against your civil liberties has no limits.

bk

Does anyone know if DB plan on introducing a wallet style system like LUAS for infrequent passengers, to pay for one off tickets?

If yes, how will that work, tag on and tag off again like Luas?
Or you say the fare to the driver and then wave your card over the drivers reader?

markpb

bk wrote: »

If yes, how will that work, tag on and tag off again like Luas?

This would be a disaster in Dublin. If we had (and used) more than one door per bus, it would be bad but do-able as long as many people weren't doing it.

Or you say the fare to the driver and then wave your card over the drivers reader?

This is what they do in Belfast.

bk

markpb wrote: »

This is what they do in Belfast.

So is this what DB are going to do?

Of course the best solution is the London Bus, a single cheap fare for integrated tickets no matter how far you are going, just tag on, no need to tag off. Of course that would be far to radical for DB.

markpb

bk wrote: »

Of course the best solution is the London Bus, a single cheap fare for integrated tickets no matter how far you are going, just tag on, no need to tag off. Of course that would be far to radical for DB.

Fare changes have to be approved by DoT. DB apparently wanted to change their fare structure years ago but DoT blocked it.

Run_to_da_hills

DB could well use a tag out system and still hold on to their "stages". Unlike London Bus, DB use only one door for entrance / exit. The fare could be easily calculated from GPS coordinates marking out the stages and registered them on a central computer.

markpb

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

DB could well use a tag out system and still hold on to their "stages". Unlike London Bus, DB use only one door for entrance / exit.

Eh...? Only using one door is the best reason _not_ to use a tag on/off system. That is assuming you like your buses moving from stop to stop and not sitting at each stop for even longer. It would be a disaster.

Run_to_da_hills

markpb wrote: »

Eh...? Only using one door is the best reason _not_ to use a tag on/off system. That is assuming you like your buses moving from stop to stop and not sitting at each stop for even longer. It would be a disaster.

Have the entrance touch pad at the drivers cab and the exit touch pad on the left or even have several of them and have them compatible. It only takes seconds to tag out. The other option is a more powerful portal scanner at the door that will read them as you get on / get off.

Ste.phen

bk wrote: »

So is this what DB are going to do?

Of course the best solution is the London Bus, a single cheap fare for integrated tickets no matter how far you are going, just tag on, no need to tag off. Of course that would be far to radical for DB.

Didn't DB try to introduce flat fares when the euro changeover happened?
I'm sure one of our more DB-savvy posters will have the details.

paulm17781

They should introdice a smart card where each journey is a travel 90. Tagging on with in 90 minutes incurs no extra cost. I'd like to see this but I doubt it will happen.

AlekSmart

FWIW,my understanding of the current situation is that the initial bedding-in period will feature Periodic Passes only.

I believe this to be a totally unnecessary,but typically Irish,stopgap measure whilst we wait for somebody in authority (Hello Julie ) to take a decision.

I also understand a suggestion already exists from within Dublin Bus on a "compromise" situation vis a vis the incorporation of the fare-stage system into the Smart-Card matrix.

Essentially a smart-card passenger boarding would swipe their card and have it immediately debited by the max fare amount (As yet undecided but probably €1.70 or €2).
However those SC enabled passengers seeking a lower fare amount would be required to present their card to the Drivers Ticket Machine in order to have the lower fare value manually entered and debited to their card.

Yes,I know....tempes fugit and all of that...yet another example of our native unwillingness to accept progress in any way,shape or form as this cobblers would effectively short-circuit any real benefits which potentially accrue from the SC technology.

Given that Dublin Bus has specified a fleet of vehicles spectacularly unsuited to ANY form of Platform Delay it is of paramount importance that SC technology is utilized to relentlessly target and reduce this Delay time to an absolute minimum.

If we are to believe Minister Dempsey`s exhortations regarding sustainability of public transport then we have NO alternative but to IMMEDIATELY introduce a City Wide FLAT-FARE.

The alternatives are for the Minister to publicly repudiate the Cabinets decisions on sustainability and the general decision to favour Public Transport as a sustainable alternative to increased Car useage.

Having done this,the Minister can rest easy with Dublin Bus maintaining the Status Quo with queues of Smart Card waving non-conformists demanding their €1.05 fare for their journey (Which is currently unchallengeable due to the absence of ANY stage markings on the companys roadside infrastructure)

It cannot be underlined enough that the decision (A VERY simple one) rests with Minister Dempsey and his erstwhile Secretary General,with Dublin Bus itself merely whistling past the graveyard as it awaits some form of smoke from Kildare St.

The key to everything here is SIMPLICITY and EASE-OF-USAGE,two ingredients which the Department of Transport have proven remarkably loath to sanction as was proven by their incredible (and never fully explained) actions in the immediate aftermath of the Dublin Bus Euro Changeover programme.

As the honourable member for Kerry once said we have a bit of an oul Lacunae going on at the moment but somebody will be along shortly to clean up !!!!

bk

You know it seems amazing to me that almost everyone is in 100% agreement about a city wide flat rate, yet there seems to be little or no movement towards it from the DoT.

It is a clear, logical, relatively easy to implement and likely very popular change, yet for some bizarre reason the DoT just isn't brave enough or motivated enough to implement it, madness.

I vote for a €1.50 card flat fee and €3 cash flat fee.

AlekSmart

As the roll-out of Dublin Bus`s Smart Card Readers (SCR) progresses we are beginning to see some indication of how the company are slowly moving towards incorporating their useage into day-to-day operations.

Some alterations which may be of interest are as follows:

The current 5-Day Rambler Handypack and 5-Day Rambler are being amalgameted into a single 5-Day Smartcard.
The 5 Days will no longer have to be consecutive which will allow a substantial and welcome increase in flexibility

The non-consecutive principle is also being applied to the 30 Day Rambler.

I expect that in both cases there will be a cap of perhaps 180 days within which the validity must be used,but I have no definitive info on this as yet..

The current 10 seperate Travel-90 Value pack becomes a single 10 journey Travel-90 smartcard which I feel will eventually become the Standard Fare denomination on Dublin Buses.

Currently there is no indication of what attitude is going to be applied to what will soon become a very noticeable choke-point hampering the realization of Smart-Card benefits....The Cash Fare.

With Dublin Bus enjoying a degree of autonomy in relation to it`s pre-paid tickets,one can see a section of the company is actually making an attempt to streamline the process.
However,simultaneously one can see how the Cash-Fare problem,which remains TOTALLY within the Department of Transport`s remit is progressing at that august bodies standard speed...Full-Astern

Instead of getting this entire area sorted well in advance of a High-Profile start-up date,the DoT will now be presiding over a dual mandate arrangement which sees "Old" tech,increasingly unreliable,Magnetic Card Validators coupled with vexatious cash based transactions attempting to negate the benefits for those passengers who DO take the plunge to move away from Cash.

On another note it is perhaps worth noting that if one has a Luas Smart Card alongside a Dublin Bus smartcard in the same wallet then the chances of an error message are very high.
This could indicate that some fine tuning of the system will be required if its to meet the long awaited "leave it in your wallet" style of useage

Run_to_da_hills

AlekSmart wrote: »

On another note it is perhaps worth noting that if one has a Luas Smart Card alongside a Dublin Bus smartcard in the same wallet then the chances of an error message are very high.
This could indicate that some fine tuning of the system will be required if its to meet the long awaited "leave it in your wallet" style of useage

Unlike magnetic strip cards, two RFID cards cannot contaminate one another.

However is advisable to have a special RFID blocking wallet containing the two cards and only remove the card that you are using. By keeping second smart card that you are not using in the closed wallet it will prevent it from transmitting any signal that could confuse the system leaving you untagged. http://www.difrwear.com/
http://www.emvelope.com/

AlekSmart

A very succinct explanation from RTDH which is well worth noting,particularly by Luas SC users as their card IS used on on a differential scale basis.

However neither operator has as yet publicised RTDH`s good advice preferring to keep alive the notion of simply waving your wallet/purse at the reader.......looks like it`s Caveat Emptor time again !! :rolleyes: