Cost for sessioning?

mcdunley

Hi

I have recently been asked to stay on in a small unsigned band as a session bassist. The band leader/artist is reasonably well-off and can afford to pay me but I'm wondering what a reasonable price is for:
a) recording (I believe it's better to charge per song than per hour for this)?
b) gigs?
c) rehearsals (or should this be done for free and money just be made from the first two)?

Bear in mind that I couldn't expect the artist to pay me big bucks as it would be my first gig as a session musician. Having said that, I'm pretty proficient at my instrument and have played in many bands over the last 8 or 9 years.

Any help/guidance would be much appreciated.

Thanks!!!!

Einstein

congrats on the gig!
just bear in mind that if the band get a song released etc, you won't be entitled to any royalties etc, unless you have signed up with http://www.raap.ie/

In regards for the amount to charge, I really dont know, I've done some session work and and we also used a session bassist, gave him €100 for the days work, he was only startin out too.

Good luck with it!

judas101

if you want to do it, do it for the experience/laugh.

if you dont really, dont go charging the lad.

if youre a good session bassist you dont need to take a rich kids money.

mcdunley

judas101 wrote: »

if you want to do it, do it for the experience/laugh.

if you dont really, dont go charging the lad.

if youre a good session bassist you dont need to take a rich kids money.

So I've got my first potentially paying gig as a session musician and i should throw it away just for the experience? I'm not sure I get the logic. Session musicianing is a job; it's not like jamming with a band for fun. I want to do it as I want to find a way in and get paid for my services (ie playing). I have other avenues to go down for simply the "love of the music" and I don't want to get in to a discussion about views on "selling-out, maaaan!" etc. just because I want to get paid for playing for someone. I may not have much experience doing it but you never get paid particularly well in your first job in any field. If musicians around the world took that attitude, they would be worse off than simply "starving musicians".

cfitz

For gigs, I think you should be able to command 100 EUR to start with. I don't know what level you're at. If you're not good, you'll probably struggle to find work. If you're brilliant it'll probably be easy to earn a lot more than that.

telecaster

I don't think charging for rehearsals is on really. Eur100 per gig or day's recording seems decent enough for someone getting started. That doesn't have to be your price when the next job comes around so use this as something to put on your musicians cv and to pay a few bills.

Good luck with it, and enjoy it.

Judas.....you make it sound like some style of exploitation that the OP is embarking on. He's entitled to charge for his time if he doesn't want to be a full time band member.

mcdunley

telecaster wrote: »

I don't think charging for rehearsals is on really.

Why is that? Say for example if I'm required to do several 3-4 hour rehearsals before a gig should I not be entitled to some payment for my time? I wouldn't expect to be paid for the personal pratice on my own time required to maintain memory of parts etc. (which still constitutes a form of work for the group don't forget). However, if I put in, say for instance, three four-hour rehearsals before a gig of one hours length then I'm only getting paid €100 for 13 hours work (not counting sound-checking/waiting around on the night of the gig). That is a little unreasonable, no?

Thanks for your help so far guys.

telecaster

mcdunley wrote: »

Hi

I have recently been asked to stay on in a small unsigned band

Above is the reason why I wouldn't charge for rehearsals. It's not Paul McCartney you're working with. There's plenty of people who would do the thing for free if they were in to the music

mcdunley

telecaster wrote: »

Above is the reason why I wouldn't charge for rehearsals. It's not Paul McCartney you're working with. There's plenty of people who would do the thing for free if they were in to the music

Hmm...it may not be Paul McCartney but, going by the scenario I've hypothesised, I would be putting in an awful lot of time for very little return (e.g. the 13 hours work for 100e). That hardly seems fair if this is to be a business arrangement (being less than minimum wage) and it has nothing to do with whether or not others would do it for free (that's the band leader/artist's perogative if they want to get them on instead). Also, would rehearsals with a view to recording also be done for free in such a way (i.e. a session where arranging of parts is worked out)? Does that not negate the whole idea of being paid for your service?

Savman

Charging for rehearsals is pushing the boat out too far IMHO.

mcdunley

Savman wrote: »

Charging for rehearsals is pushing the boat out too far IMHO.

So where do you draw the line with the amount of time that you give if it's supposed to be a business arrangement (i.e. being paid for service)?

Savman

mcdunley wrote: »

So where do you draw the line with the amount of time that you give if it's supposed to be a business arrangement (i.e. being paid for service)?

A service you've already said you have no experience in. You don't get anywhere by charging over the odds too early in your career, you make friends by "looking after" the right people. It's a small town and word spreads fast.

mcdunley

Savman wrote: »

A service you've already said you have no experience in. You don't get anywhere by charging over the odds too early in your career, you make friends by "looking after" the right people. It's a small town and word spreads fast.

I didn't say I have had no experience in playing as a free hand for people-this is my first paying gig. Agreed "You don't get anywhere by charging over the odds too early in your career" but I'm talking about what constitutes a reasonable amount for time devoted to practicing/gigging with a band (and like I said, this excludes any additional personal practice). I think below minimum wage is a bit ridiculous for anyone to be paid in any realm no matter the level of satisfaction derived from the job. Also, if rehearsals were all for free, a band leader/artist could easily refuse to pay you for several rehearsals (hours of your time) if a gig is cancelled. Basically what I'm asking is should there be an agreed number of free rehearsal hours/ sessions per gig that constitutes a reasonable amount of time? If you mean to tell me that you normally go about your day job on a for-free basis in order to "look after" the right people, you must be minted or a nutcase!!!!

gracehopper

judas101 wrote: »

if you want to do it, do it for the experience/laugh.

if you dont really, dont go charging the lad.

if youre a good session bassist you dont need to take a rich kids money.

I disagree with all of this.

Charge 100 per gig
Charge 100 per days recording
If rehearsing is more frequent than twice a week then charge hourly for that too.
write up a contract with commencing and finishing dates for the service provided and get him to sign it.

Dont ever undercut yourself! If you are good enough and believe in your ability then you'll have no problems doing this and will be grand. If you are sessioning there wont be any royalties but ask him anyway. All he'll say is no.

You've spent years perfecting your talent and getting to what I assume is a decent standard so take your opportunity.

Best of luck!

mcdunley

gracehopper wrote: »

I disagree with all of this.

Charge 100 per gig
Charge 100 per days recording
If rehearsing is more frequent than twice a week then charge hourly for that too.
write up a contract with commencing and finishing dates for the service provided and get him to sign it.

Dont ever undercut yourself! If you are good enough and believe in your ability then you'll have no problems doing this and will be grand. If you are sessioning there wont be any royalties but ask him anyway. All he'll say is no.

You've spent years perfecting your talent and getting to what I assume is a decent standard so take your opportunity.

Best of luck!

Thanks!

Savman

gracehopper wrote: »

Charge 100 per gig
Charge 100 per days recording
If rehearsing is more frequent than twice a week then charge hourly for that too.
write up a contract with commencing and finishing dates for the service provided and get him to sign it.

Ridiculous. Unless the guy has more money than sense or is signed to a major label, there's no way that kind of arrangement is sustainable.

mcdunley wrote:

If you mean to tell me that you normally go about your day job on a for-free basis in order to "look after" the right people, you must be minted or a nutcase!!!!

Closer to the latter than the former actually. But yes, I do "favours" for people, always have and always will. Because in the long run, a favour is worth more to me than money, especially for the sake of a couple of hundred euro. If it was me you were working with I'd tell you where to go with your rates but at the end of the day it's your own prerogative.

I assume you're all registered with the taxman to be charging for your services?

gracehopper

Savman wrote: »

Ridiculous. Unless the guy has more money than sense or is signed to a major label, there's no way that kind of arrangement is sustainable.

Closer to the latter than the former actually. But yes, I do "favours" for people, always have and always will. Because in the long run, a favour is worth more to me than money, especially for the sake of a couple of hundred euro. If it was me you were working with I'd tell you where to go with your rates but at the end of the day it's your own prerogative.

I assume you're all registered with the taxman to be charging for your services?

Maybe he has more money than sense?

joking aside. The op is going to have to be on call for this guy. If he decides to write, record and gig/tour an album. That is potentially a substantial amount of time.

100 a day in some circumstances might be too much but in my miserable IT job i wouldnt work for anything less than that. i suppose my point is that the op should agree a price on days in studio, days recording and days rehearsing. Dont have the "wait and see what he gives me" attitude.

mcdunley

Savman wrote: »

If it was me you were working with I'd tell you where to go with your rates but at the end of the day it's your own prerogative.

What I've been asking relates to costing for sessioning and I began this thread by looking for info on what a reasonable price for my time starting out as a session musician would be. If you like doing favours for people, that's fine...but I assume you bring home your bread and butter by some other means in that case (and I assume your boss in that realm pays more than minimum wage)! I'm asking about sessioning as a paid gig not as a favour for someone. If you don't get money from your "favours", it's inappropriate for you to respond to my questions regarding costing by saying that I should be doing favours like you.

Savman

mcdunley wrote: »

What I've been asking relates to costing for sessioning and I began this thread by looking for info on what a reasonable price for my time starting out as a session musician would be. If you like doing favours for people, that's fine...but I assume you bring home your bread and butter by some other means in that case (and I assume your boss in that realm pays more than minimum wage)! I'm asking about sessioning as a paid gig not as a favour for someone. If you don't get money from your "favours", it's inappropriate for you to respond to my questions regarding costing by saying that I should be doing favours like you.

You seemed to have avoided the tax question, it's not "inappropriate" to ask if you are registered for income tax and/or VAT purposes? If you are, great, the guy can pay you by cheque and account for his expenses. If not, you have some neck to be expected to be paid like a pro if you are not willing to conduct your affairs like one.

mcdunley

Savman wrote: »

You seemed to have avoided the tax question, it's not "inappropriate" to ask if you are registered for income tax and/or VAT purposes? If you are, great, the guy can pay you by cheque and account for his expenses. If not, you have some neck to be expected to be paid like a pro if you are not willing to conduct your affairs like one.

The original point of this thread relates to what a reasonable amount for starting off sessioning is. I have not arranged for tax registration yet but neither has a formal contract been drawn up. I think that you are side-stepping the point here

Savman

mcdunley wrote: »

The original point of this thread relates to what a reasonable amount for starting off sessioning is. I have not arranged for tax registration yet but neither has a formal contract been drawn up. I think that you are side-stepping the point here

What is the point? That you want to know what a fair price is for your first Session gig? Who knows. It's an unregulated market ffs, there are no official rates in place.

mcdunley

Savman wrote: »

What is the point? That you want to know what a fair price is for your first Session gig? Who knows. It's an unregulated market ffs, there are no official rates in place.

I was hoping that someone with a bit of experience and real "savvy" regarding sessioning could give me some advice. I believe that there is a musicians' union with official rates anyway, no?

AndyTheDude

Let me check if I got it right...

1. you're just starting out,

2. you don't even have a clue how much you should charge for your services,

3. and you expect to get paid for rehearsals...


That's a good one, dude.

---

I assume you're all registered with the taxman to be charging for your services?

+1

mcdunley

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Let me check if I got it right...

1. you're just starting out,

2. you don't even have a clue how much you should charge for your services,

3. and you expect to get paid for rehearsals...


That's a good one, dude.

---

+1

I'm glad you find it so amusing. I haven't exactly started off as a complete newbie to this but I was hoping to find some consensus on what is reasonable to charge....and I don't want to enter into this particular musical arrangement unless I'm paid for my time. I didn't start this thread in order to try and repeatedly defend why I want money for this gig anyway. If there is no "official rate" as Savman has said, how else am I to find out what a reasonable rate for my time is other than by asking people?

telecaster

mcdunley you may have exhausted the helpful replies on the thread, take what you can from it and move on.

Don't get bogged down in tax hassle. You declare your earnings to the revenue at the end of the tax year. You can just use ros.ie to make an additional declaration to your main income. VAT is irrelevant for you starting off, you are not obliged to register for VAT until you are earning over a certain threshold which hopefully you'll be lucky enough to reach some day.

Everyone with a pps is 'registered with the taxman'

Savman

mcdunley wrote: »

I believe that there is a musicians' union with official rates anyway, no?

yes, "official rates" that nobody listens to nor enforces!

telecaster wrote:

Everyone with a pps is 'registered with the taxman'

Not the same thing and you know it. If you earn cash on the side, then you have to declare it. "Oh i was gonna put it in at the end of the year" is not a valid excuse, I'd like to see you try that on for size, let's know how you get on
Or an even better one is "but your honour, some guy on a web board told me not to get bogged down in 'tax hassle'..." :rolleyes:

btw - For the record you are not obliged to register for VAT until you earn over a certain amount (€35k IIRC) but you can elect to register.

telecaster

If you want to discuss tax in a different thread I'm happy to do so Sav, feel free to get one started and I'll contribute my experiences on this always murky area. I'll just make this point here to answer yours.

Indeed if you earn cash on the side you have to declare it, and the time to declare it as at the end of the year when tax returns are made for the previous year. You can of course pay a preliminary tax for the year ahead on estimated earnings. But the fact remains that mcdunley and anyone else can earn money 'on the side' now and legally declare it in October when the self assessment deadline comes along.

Electing to register for VAT can be very beneficial for a musician, but its a separate issue.

Apologies for thread diversion mcdunley.

Mick Shrimpton

Holy Jesus, I'd think twice about asking any advice on this forum, Christ!!!

OP, in my experience, it all depends on the gig. I have been paid more often than not for rehearsals any time I've been hired as a session player. And never hourly, just a flat rate for the rehearsal, which has never exceeded 5 hours.

And I was paid on my first session, and it was unsigned too. It was 3 rehearsals and 2 days recording. And the rehearsals were where all the work was done in my mind, the drums were recorded in 3 hours done and dusted. It was just some bloke who wanted a recording which eventually came to nothing...

So, the best idea is to go and see what this guy is willing to pay and what will be entailed in the project, and make the decision yourself about what seems fair and what you can compromise on. Because if you feel 2 or 3 weeks into the project very unhappy about fees that should have been talked about, everyone loses.

I wouldn't worry about tax just yet:rolleyes:

mcdunley

Colinthedrummer wrote: »

Holy Jesus, I'd think twice about asking any advice on this forum, Christ!!!

OP, in my experience, it all depends on the gig. I have been paid more often than not for rehearsals any time I've been hired as a session player. And never hourly, just a flat rate for the rehearsal, which has never exceeded 5 hours.

And I was paid on my first session, and it was unsigned too. It was 3 rehearsals and 2 days recording. And the rehearsals were where all the work was done in my mind, the drums were recorded in 3 hours done and dusted. It was just some bloke who wanted a recording which eventually came to nothing...

So, the best idea is to go and see what this guy is willing to pay and what will be entailed in the project, and make the decision yourself about what seems fair and what you can compromise on. Because if you feel 2 or 3 weeks into the project very unhappy about fees that should have been talked about, everyone loses.

I wouldn't worry about tax just yet:rolleyes:

Thanks! This is the sort of info I was looking for, by someone who has actual experience with this sort of thing and doesn't want to argue about tax and how I should work for free!

Savman

Sorry I didn't realise it was a case of being told what you want to hear. So I'll not waste any more of your time.:)

unclebill98

Most of the people here have been through what you doing.

You charge what you think you worth. As mentioned there is no set rate, only what the person can afford to pay.

I for one, would not charge for rehearsals, but would expect my costs to be covered. As for recording, there would be a set fee and not by the hour. As for doing live gigs/tours, again a per gig basis plus costs covered.

Charge what you think you could get away with.

As for the whole Vat registered thing, down the line you'll find that not being vat reg'd will go against you. Even if its not needed on your part and you can invoice without it vat, most companies will insist on it.

As for the tax thing, yes you declare it in Oct, thats fine. But you need to keep an eye on it through out the year via properly maintained accounts.

You can not plead ignorance with it.

I've read this tread and no one has answered your question, simple cause there is no real answer.