Heads up regarding security/storage arrangements

G17

Here's a story about someone who had a recent visit from a crime prevention officer. Moved house, simply wanted a change of address approval on FACs. This bloke spent a bit of time and money on security:

I.P. cameras, monitored alarm, GSM dialler, secondary ESB independent audible alarm, steel window bars, a welded in combination safe and a welded in long arm safe - all within an 800lb custom safe with 4 mortise locks, a one inch bar roller padlock, no components to make up a working firearm (bolts, mags etc. not stored together), separate ammo storage, house occupied all day every day, any cutting/power tools in another safe, keys stored separately (i.e. several bunches needed to get at firearms). BS standard (dunno which one, the PVC bloke put it in) door. Lives in the country but neighbours well in earshot.

Was told if he was applying for a pistol licence afresh, would NOT be approved as the door opened inwards and therefore could be kicked in, in theory.

This is not posted to complain about strict guidelines, just this; before you spend any time or money on storage (say building a new house) contact your local Crime Prevention Officer FIRST and get in writing what is required/advised.

He's getting the door done.

Save yourself some hassle.

Manic Moran

Jesus... They don't half muck around with you mob, do they?

(Looks at the four firearms sitting in padlocked cases on the shelf behind him)

NTM

Grizzly 45

I think he should go and get a second opinion of his CPO's competance to judge security storage issues! :rolleyes:That is total overkill.What door is he on about?It isnt really clear from your post.Front door,door to gun vault...?

meathstevie

Jeezes, nearly sure the launching codes for the NATO nuclear arsenal as less well secured... OK, you need your stuff secured, there's no arguing about that but this really sounds like serious overkill.

cavan shooter

This strikes me as a case of "however but......" quite simply the CPO doesn't like to say that this is ok, because when someone in authority says something is ok, then he has personally approved it.

So, what happens here be it a member of the guards, a Health and Safety Inspector, or whatever, when he sees something over and above what he normally sees and requires and he cant really add constructively to get you to take action, he adds in the " Yes ok, however but....." comments.

You see it can never be said that your friend was 100 % compliant.

In my honest opinion, It would be quite difficult to kick in a door which is properly bolted, alarmed etc. Would there not be as great a likliehood for the thief to pry the door open. Lets also mention the fact and disadvantage of a door which opens outwards, being opened to a caller who can now pull the door open and get his foot behind it and prevent you from closing it.

Definetly a case of "yes, however......"

An old saying springs to mind, if you have nothing good to say say nothing

G17

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

What door is he on about?It isnt really clear from your post.Front door,door to gun vault...?

Front door. You'd have to get through, count them, 4 doors, 2 PVC (common or garden on every house in the country doors) and two of 4mm steel to get a functioning firearm, assuming you had ammo with you.

Bear in mind a year or two ago, this is the same CPO that needed to come out to inspect previous storage arrangements for a second pistol application, just 5 months after the first inspection and nothing, whatsoever had been changed from the initial setup. I'm assuming this is coming down from on high.

I wanted to warn everyone, no matter how secure you think your setup is, check first or it can cost you later.

G17

meathstevie wrote: »

this really sounds like serious overkill.

That's why there was such disappointment at the CPO's reaction.
Anyone know someone who can lay a minefield as a nixer?:D:D:D

Sparks

On the "check it first" level, you might consider just implementing the base level of the NCPU's recommendations and then getting the CPO in to check and to tell you what they want extra, if anything; same way you'd do an NCT test for your car.

cavan shooter

If that is the case we are again playing guess the security requirements game again

As far as I know this is the only publically available document which mentions security arrangements in the state

http://www.nargc.ie/Upload/Docs/NARGC-FIREARMS-SAFETY-MANUAL.pdf

and in the uk, this is the document you must refernence.

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/operational-policing/firearms-handbook.pdf?view=Binary

These detail minimum security requirements.

I thought we were passed all this

Sparks

No, the NCPU's recommendations were posted here in the FCP conference thread as well:

"Measures must be consummerate with risk"
The liklihood of an event and the seriousness of the event must be considered.
The NCPU have issued guidelines to supers as advice, not rules.
These are:
The firearm has to be stored in a structurally sound building.
Gun cabinets must be used.
Firearms should never be left unattended.
Three categories for secure storage:
Category A (rifles to .22, shotguns)
- Gun Cabinet (not insisting on BS standard, just that it be fit for purpose), secured to a solid wall or floor and concealed if possible.
- The dwelling should be reasonably secure (good doors and windows).
Category B (fullbore rifles)
- Gun Cabinet as in category A
- Seperate storage area in the cabinet for ammunition
- Audible (not necessarily monitored) alarm on the dwelling
Category C (pistols and revolvers)
- Gun Cabinet as in category B
- External doors must be in good condition with 5 lever mortice locks or for patio doors, anti-lift devices.
- Alarm to EM5031 standard, monitored by a recognised monitoring centre
Also, if you have four or more firearms in a category, you must meet the standards of the next higher category (so 4 cat A firearms = you must meet the cat B conditions).

cavan shooter

My mistake, I thought those requirements where set out in the NARGC document (whoops)

bigred

G17 wrote: »

Front door.

Excuse the ignorance, but don't all domestic front doors (everywhere in the world) open inwards? Surely the front door is irrelevant if a shaped charge is the only way to open the vault??

Sparks

Hell, even mine (a security door) opens inwards. And if someone found they couldn't kick it in (and they've tried with both boots and a screwdriver), they just go to them great big glass things that most houses tend to have...

rrpc

To be fair the OP didn't specify which door was the problem. My front door opens inwards and was OK'd by a CPO, so I doubt it's that.

Bananaman

My door opens in aswell but has a 5 point lock into the frame so they'd be kicking for a good while.

B'Man

Grizzly 45

G17 wrote: »

That's why there was such disappointment at the CPO's reaction.
Anyone know someone who can lay a minefield as a nixer?:D:D:D

Nope! But I can build you a bunch of very nasty man traps ala First Blood if the CPO approves.:D:D:D:D:D

Errr, front doors in the western World[bar ancient Athens and Sparta ,Greece] open inwards..:rolleyes:
I reckon this is a case of instead of keeping ones mouth shut and being thought a fool,he/she opened it and removed all doubt.:eek:

G17

rrpc wrote: »

To be fair the OP didn't specify which door was the problem. My front door opens inwards and was OK'd by a CPO, so I doubt it's that.

Front, and indeed, only door.

G17

Sparks wrote: »

they just go to them great big glass things that most houses tend to have...

Yep, he also apparently mentioned he was unhappy with the beading being on the outside, too easy to remove the pane and squeeze through, bypassing the door sensor (even though there's a PIR above door inside too).

A local bloke has put in, quite literally, a gun vault, complete with used door from a bank refurb, the CPO seems to now grade all others against this.

So be careful if your local 'boy done good' decides to wow it up with a walk in firearm wardrobe, your Warmflow gun cabinet might just not be good enough (pants anway, seen one prised open with a shovel, didn't even scratch the paint, only stops honest people).

Hopefully our FCP champions will iron all this out so at least it's fair for everyone..............

G17

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope! But I can build you a bunch of very nasty man traps ala First Blood if the CPO approves.:D:D:D:D:D

Coooool, do you take Visa!?

I can hear it now "Honey, there's two scumballs pinned to the floor with their own shin bones, I can't get to the dryer".....:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

patbundy

G17 wrote: »

Yep, he also apparently mentioned he was unhappy with the beading being on the outside, too easy to remove the pane and squeeze through, bypassing the door sensor (even though there's a PIR above door inside too).


he (the cpo) has a point there as regarding the door i have to agree with grizzly,it makes no difference if the door opens out or in

rrpc

patbundy wrote: »

he (the cpo) has a point there as regarding the door i have to agree with grizzly,it makes no difference if the door opens out or in

Depends on the locking mechanism. If it was a yale type lock, then it's not very secure. Three or five point locking is probably what most of them look for now.

Beading being removed is easier said then done, especially with a trembler on the door. You'd be surprised at how much force is needed when the door's been in situ for a while.

patbundy

do you wanna bet rrpc:D:D

thehair

i bet pat you are from the northside of cork the door will be easy for you
then:eek:to break into as a test ONLY:p

patbundy

ha ha relax hair ,you are too far for me:D

thehair

post number 400 for ME and no BAN:poo did i speak to soon:rolleyes:

patbundy

thehair wrote: »

post number 400 for ME and no BAN:poo did i speak to soon:rolleyes:

your banned:D:D:D..jes that felt good

thehair

who made you a mod:pthat felt better:D PS go back on topic or ELSE
you know what:rolleyes:

patbundy

true hair. i find easier to get through most modern doors.dont worry lads ,i used to make and fit them,now i just fit them

thehair

patbundy wrote: »

true hair. i find easier to get through most modern doors.dont worry lads ,i used to make and fit them,now i just fit them

AND THEN COPY THE KEYS ANS=YES OR NO:eek: DO YOU

patbundy

ha ha ha no hair,i dont,its a position of trust and i must respect that

thehair

patbundy wrote: »

ha ha ha no hair,i dont,its a position of trust and i must respect that

and that is the truth JUDGE:eek: ooo ok pat

cavan shooter

With regards to being worried about the beading being removed and then the glass. Put a couple of extra PIRs in the rooms leading into the house

rrpc

cavan shooter wrote: »

With regards to being worried about the beading being removed and then the glass. Put a couple of extra PIRs in the rooms leading into the house

Most modern doors with double glazed units don't just rely on the beading to hold the glass in, but also have silicone between the unit and the door frame. At least mine do anyway

So you may get the beading off, but you still have to break the silicone seal to remove the glass.

Grizzly 45

At this stage of the game,unless the robber has months of time to do all this glass removing and is a very consientious type of chap.I think a size12 Doc Martin pick or sledge key is more the appropriate tool going to be used.
Cos lets face it .No matter WHAT you put in as a deterrent,it is now the RESPONSE time of the gaurdians of law and order to the alarm.Not much good if two zones have been penetrated,and they insist a key holder is sent out to check the premises for a false alarm.Goodoh ,now you have sent an innocent party over to get involved in somthing potentially dangerous.It should be if there are two zones penetrated in a house ,within a certain time period ,and tthat the Gardai know there are firearms .[Which they do]it is treated as a real/hostile situation,and responded too as such.

Sparks

At this stage of the game,unless the robber has months of time to do all this glass removing and is a very consientious type of chap.I think a sixe12 Doc Martin pick or sledge key is more the appropriate tool going to be used.

Going on my own experience and what the Gardai told me afterwards, the most likely tool is a screwdriver or a sparkplug (for windows, especially car windows, and that's happened to me as well). Most burglaries are defeated by having a good quality door and lock, and actually locking the door. Certainly when I got done, they tried the front door with the screwdriver twice (couldn't have been more than 30 seconds of effort) and then they gave up and attacked the rear door, which unfortunately was a patio door without an anti-lift device (now rectified).

Thing is, they were in the house less than five minutes by the Gardai's estimate and they bypassed a *lot* of expensive stuff looking for stuff that was both expensive and small enough to put in a sock (they stuff the sock down their crotch on leaving the house because a Garda's not likely to search there on a casual suspicion that they've been up to something if they're caught; and it's easier to throw away as well if they have to run). Since I had a few watches by my bed (which the Garda said they don't steal because it's hard to explain why you're wearing six watches if you're caught), they tossed my bedroom looking for stuff like that. They didn't even try to open the safe when they found it was locked and the key was nowhere in sight (I've always carried the key with me).

Now I rang the Garda station the moment I got home to find the place tossed. I spoke to the FO directly (I know the guy reasonably well) and he literally came straight up (probably to make sure the rifles were still there!) - and that took ten minutes. There really isn't any reasonable way that they could have caught the burglars, even with a monitored alarm, there's too much delay in the system.

To be honest, the monitored alarms, and all that fancy stuff - that's for the rare cases where the burglar either isn't very good and hangs about too long; or the hollywood movie case of someone targeting you to steal your firearms and is somehow daft enough to stand there trying to crack the safe in the house after having broken in and set off the alarm. It's probably true that firearms get stolen - but I'd lay pretty high odds that all those that were stolen were not stolen from locked firearms safes/cabinets. For my money, I'd say yes, get the monitored alarm and all that jazz, becuase (a) it brings down your house insurance premium and (b) you have to do what the Super says anyway; but to keep the firearm safe and secure, make sure you have good door and window locks and that you use them; lock the firearm in the safe or cabinet; don't leave anything in plain sight in the car; and generally use the same common sense every one of us has been using for as long as we've been shooting.

Red Renard

I have heard this spefic house is very well protected. Apart from 3 fully grown German Shepherds on guard at all time the longtime friend of the family Chief Super Name not mentioned will have the local Garda put the boot down to make it out on time No worries lads.;)

kerryman12

Guys

I have to say its time for a reality check. Must guys who break in are looking for the stuff that can be flogged quickly. They wont know a firearm is in the house. The best way to defeat these guys is to make your house look a bit better than the one next store, Lights gates etc get the basics right then worry about the expensive solutions.
If they know firearms are there and they are after them -well then all you can hope to do is delay them for long enough for someone to respond. No security system is invunerable, its just a matter of time.

REgards

thehair

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

At this stage of the game,unless the robber has months of time to do all this glass removing and is a very consientious type of chap.I think a size12 Doc Martin pick or sledge key is more the appropriate tool going to be used.
Cos lets face it .No matter WHAT you put in as a deterrent,it is now the RESPONSE time of the gaurdians of law and order to the alarm.Not much good if two zones have been penetrated,and they insist a key holder is sent out to check the premises for a false alarm.Goodoh ,now you have sent an innocent party over to get involved in somthing potentially dangerous.It should be if there are two zones penetrated in a house ,within a certain time period ,and tthat the Gardai know there are firearms .[Which they do]it is treated as a real/hostile situation,and responded too as such.

no no grizzly 45

down in mayo they would used a 1 JCB a man called has one you now
BOB THE BUILDER:p IF THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE JOB THEN:eek:
AAAA YES HITACH MODEL E-X-120 STEVE:D