RDF - a wasted assit?

King Ludvig

From my short 12 months in the RDF so far, id have to say IMO the RDF is an (expensive) assit the Government fails to exploit.

Im sure millions is spent annually training and equiping RDF personal for what? Other that the odd security duty or extras for a film :rolleyes:

Could reserve troops (who obviously must meet a highly trained and physical standard) not be used for example for watching the coast to combat drug smuggling as was suggested in the dáil about 6 months ago. There are countless other ways in which the RDF could be used to assist both the PDF and the Gardai.

After putting all that money into training 10,000 reserves, it seems to me a bit of a waste... ??

Dub13

On same level I think we need a much better cost guard but I don't think letting the RDF lads do it would benefit anyone.

I am not sure what more the RDF can do some people believe the PDF are way way underused.

Manic Moran

Remember that when reserves are called up, you are not only spending more money having to pay them, but you are also reducing the productivity in the civilian market which they are no longer contributing to. As a result, reserves should be used judiciously.

NTM

Dub13

Manic Moran wrote: »

Remember that when reserves are called up, you are not only spending more money having to pay them, but you are also reducing the productivity in the civilian market which they are no longer contributing to. As a result, reserves should be used judiciously.

NTM

Is there strong legislation is the US for National Guard service...?The US seems to be the most pro active in using there reserves.

eroo

PDF and RDF should man coastal OP's to monitor coastline.Drugs and weapons smuggling are the biggest threats to this country,as are subversive/criminal groups.We aren't going to be attacked on a large scale so there is no need to have PDF personnel sitting around in Barracks.

Get RDF Infantry,MP,CIS,Cav,AD and Artillery units out at OP's.Mix them with PDF counterparts and pay them likewise.Make it a voluntary duty at first;then,if not many come forward..call them up!

Everybody knows the Reserve serves no real purpose other than the official DF line.It's time the BS was stopped.RDF won't and should not be going overseas because there are PLENTY of PDF personnel to take up that role(bar Medics).If you want to go overseas,join the full time Forces!Utilise the RDF to carry out a role that makes a difference to our country.Have them manning overt OP's dotted along the coastline.This was done during WW2,but for a different purpose.

Put RDF personnel manning security at private airports.Government should make it a law that these airports should have State security at all times(RDF).Who knows how many light aircraft have landed in these places carrying millions of euro worth of drugs and/or weapons?

Give them these tasks as paid duties,with a PDF Cpl. or Sgt. as OC of RDF personnel.Yes,these duties probably wouldn't be much fun,but what duties are?I've never done any,but I've heard that after the first few guard duties,the novelty soon wares off!

When I finally get my clearance back,I would rather contribute to combating something that threatens my country,rather than train to combat threats to my country.

Manic Moran

Dub13 wrote: »

Is there strong legislation is the US for National Guard service...?The US seems to be the most pro active in using there reserves.

Yes, by way of job protection for the employees. But this does not mean that there isn't still quite a hit in the civilian sector where the jobs that they were doing suddenly aren't being done. Particularly for self-employed troops, where a backfill simply can't be brought in. This is particularly a problem with the Israeli forces, once they mobilise all their reservists, the economy can last about two weeks before collapsing.

Put RDF personnel manning security at private airports.Government should make it a law that these airports should have State security at all times(RDF).Who knows how many light aircraft have landed in these places carrying millions of euro worth of drugs and/or weapons?

I think there are probably more airfields in Ireland than you give credit for.

Besides, there are plenty of private utility aircraft that don't need an airfield to land.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WPb5k4-HnY. Are you going to put a guard on every field capable of taking this fixed-wing with a 5m take-off and 10m landing roll?

NTM

eroo

Manic Moran wrote: »

I think there are probably more airfields in Ireland than you give credit for.

Besides, there are plenty of private utility aircraft that don't need an airfield to land.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WPb5k4-HnY. Are you going to put a guard on every field capable of taking this fixed-wing with a 5m take-off and 10m landing roll?

NTM

As regards the video,be realistic.Yes it could land anywhere,but just like policing in general .. you can't be everywhere.However you could put security at designated airfields.

Yes it would require manpower to put security at these airfields and coastal OP's,but that is what the RDF have.Manpower that isn't,and probably won't ever be utilised.Hell,the PDF aren't being utilised at all times either.However,they are a full-time Force and are serving their purposes overseas and and as ATCP,as well as providing State security.The RDF only train,and do duties when the main PDF unit are overseas/training.Put them into use I say!That way the RDF would be providing a service to the State,thus gaining more respect from the general public.

Steyr

eroo wrote: »

Put RDF personnel manning security at private airports.Government should make it a law that these airports should have State security at all times(RDF).Who knows how many light aircraft have landed in these places carrying millions of euro worth of drugs and/or weapons?

Give them these tasks as paid duties,with a PDF Cpl. or Sgt. as OC of RDF personnel.Yes,these duties probably wouldn't be much fun,but what duties are?
When I finally get my clearance back,I would rather contribute to combating something that threatens my country,rather than train to combat threats to my country.

Well said, they should be everywhere and trained to PDF/Customs standard, how about having them at Embassies and County/City council buildings in No1's too.:)

King Ludvig

Manic Moran wrote: »

This is particularly a problem with the Israeli forces, once they mobilise all their reservists, the economy can last about two weeks before collapsing.

Putting reserve troops (or PDF for that matter) is not going to take anyone elses job, or weaken the economy, as there is nobody currently doing it.

Ireland is one of the easiest in Europe to smuggle drugs in to.

Maybe with better patroling of the coast we could reduce Irelands drug problem and prevent criminals using GERNADES in gang wars in housing estates.

concussion

Why not put people who are on the dole in these op's? They're already getting money for doing nothing so now they can do thatn from the top of a cliff.

Dinter

What did the RDF think they were going to do when they joined up? It's not like they've had these roles taken away from them.

I think we have a lot of PDF that could fulfil anything mentioned before we'd have to go looking to the RDF.

They are meant to be held in reserve in case something extraordinary happens I would have thought.

Most RDF members would have jobs and bosses who would probably not take too kindly to having an employee standing in a field sky watching when he should be earning his boss money.

Poccington

Steyr wrote: »

Well said, they should be everywhere and trained to PDF/Customs standard, how about having them at Embassies and County/City council buildings in No1's too.:)

I'm praying you're being sarcastic when you say that?

Although I'm sure you'd love a chance to stand around looking nice in your No. 1's for all the civvi's walking about..... But it would be 1 of the biggest wastes of DOD money and a waste of time that could be spent training the Reserve.

Poccington

eroo wrote: »

Everybody knows the Reserve serves no real purpose other than the official DF line.It's time the BS was stopped.RDF won't and should not be going overseas because there are PLENTY of PDF personnel to take up that role(bar Medics).If you want to go overseas,join the full time Forces!Utilise the RDF to carry out a role that makes a difference to our country.Have them manning overt OP's dotted along the coastline.This was done during WW2,but for a different purpose.

Put RDF personnel manning security at private airports.Government should make it a law that these airports should have State security at all times(RDF).Who knows how many light aircraft have landed in these places carrying millions of euro worth of drugs and/or weapons?

If there's plenty of PDF personnel to take up an Oversea mission..... Then why wouldn't there be enough for a few OP's around the coast? Anway why would you want to setup overt OP's? The smugglers would simply find another spot to land, away from the OP's.

Same for the Private Airport, it's just a waste of resources and Reserve mandays that could just as easily be spent improving standards

If you really want to do some ATCP duties, join the Regs. You'll soon see that the novelty can wear off quite quickly for some.

Steyr

Poccington wrote: »

I'm praying you're being sarcastic when you say that?

Although I'm sure you'd love a chance to stand around looking nice in your No. 1's for all the civvi's walking about..... But it would be 1 of the biggest wastes of DOD money and a waste of time that could be spent training the Reserve.

Nope i put it out there like everybody else putting out anything, it may or may not be reserves in other Nations but it happens.

eroo

Poccington wrote: »

If there's plenty of PDF personnel to take up an Oversea mission..... Then why wouldn't there be enough for a few OP's around the coast? Anway why would you want to setup overt OP's? The smugglers would simply find another spot to land, away from the OP's.It would seriously reduce the amount of spots they can land at,with the Air Corps CASA's patrolling the gaps in between.

Same for the Private Airport, it's just a waste of resources and Reserve mandays that could just as easily be spent improving standardsThat's hilarious.Improve standards for what??The RDF IS a waste of resources at the moment.We're never going overseas unless we all join Medical Coy's.Give the RDF a reason to exist!!

...

eroo

Dinter wrote: »

They are meant to be held in reserve in case something extraordinary happens I would have thought.

Most RDF members would have jobs and bosses who would probably not take too kindly to having an employee standing in a field sky watching when he should be earning his boss money.

If something extraordinary were to happen,God forbid,then there would be 10000+ PDF personnel, 14000+ Gardai and thousands of Civil Defence at hand ... not to mention Volunteer fire and ambulance services.Only if there was a major conflict in Ireland would RDF be called up.I don't think we have many enemies internationally?:rolleyes:

Why not use the RDF to combat something that threatens the everyday world we live in?EVERYBODY is threatened by it.I refer to drug smuggling,weapons smuggling,organised crime and subversives.These threaten everyone;drugs are awash in this country and destroy so many lives;gangs/terrorists are heavily armed;criminals are a plague to society and subversives threaten the security of this State ... All of this,we know!!!So why not use the RDF in ATCP??Utilise the RDF to do something for the State.

You could also say their bosses wouldn't be too happy with them in barracks doing weapons drill or on camp in the Glen when they should be earning money,for their bosses!

Bam Bam

What you are suggesting is that the RDF take over from the Gardai.

It sounds corny but the RDF is an army its designed and trained to close with and destroy the enemy period.

What you are suggesting is that the RDF get re-tasked to carry out a police action and form some kind of part-time armed police force.

The army should never have to be used in a police action in its own country as public opinion of it would rapidly dwindle.

The RDF'd role is to augment and support the PDF in its roles should it be required. That is the role of any reserve anywhere in the world.

Armys are not designed to give value for money and very rarely do you see any kind of return on the investment.

Thats just the nature of it, one day you'll understand.

Dinter

eroo wrote: »

If something extraordinary were to happen,God forbid,then there would be 10000+ PDF personnel, 14000+ Gardai and thousands of Civil Defence at hand ... not to mention Volunteer fire and ambulance services.Only if there was a major conflict in Ireland would RDF be called up.I don't think we have many enemies internationally?:rolleyes:

Well that's my point really. You're saying that unless we were to be invaded the RDF is basically a waste of time unless we start using them as some sort of paramilitary police? Why try and change the role of the RDF when recruits knew what they were when they signed on?

eroo wrote: »

Why not use the RDF to combat something that threatens the everyday world we live in?EVERYBODY is threatened by it.I refer to drug smuggling,weapons smuggling,organised crime and subversives.These threaten everyone;drugs are awash in this country and destroy so many lives;gangs/terrorists are heavily armed;criminals are a plague to society and subversives threaten the security of this State ... All of this,we know!!!So why not use the RDF in ATCP??Utilise the RDF to do something for the State.

Well because we've 10000+ PDF personnel, 14000+ Gardai at hand ...

I would see the RDF having to be used as an admission of defeat by both the Gardai and the PDF in their role as aids to the civilian power.

eroo wrote: »

You could also say their bosses wouldn't be too happy with them in barracks doing weapons drill or on camp in the Glen when they should be earning money,for their bosses!

A lot of bosses probably aren't.

OS119

Bam Bam wrote: »

The RDF'd role is to augment and support the PDF in its roles should it be required. That is the role of any reserve anywhere in the world.

this can take two paths, the first being the RDF doing the training/adminstering for the PDF (allow an RDF Officer be posted to G5 Paperclips job allowing a PDF officer to go overseas) meaning a greater proportion of the better trained, fitter PDF would be available for operations - effectively reducing the size of the PDF 'tail' compared to its 'teeth' - or by upgrading the RDF fighting units to be able to operate on traditional PDF territory.

the first would be cheaper, the second perhaps a longer term bet, but all require employment protection.

eroo

Bam Bam wrote: »

What you are suggesting is that the RDF take over from the Gardai.

It sounds corny but the RDF is an army its designed and trained to close with and destroy the enemy period.

What you are suggesting is that the RDF get re-tasked to carry out a police action and form some kind of part-time armed police force.

The army should never have to be used in a police action in its own country as public opinion of it would rapidly dwindle.

The RDF'd role is to augment and support the PDF in its roles should it be required. That is the role of any reserve anywhere in the world.

Armys are not designed to give value for money and very rarely do you see any kind of return on the investment.

Thats just the nature of it, one day you'll understand.

Where did I once state RDF would become a paramilitary police force?When did I say they would be deployed on the streets policing??I highlighted problems that affect all of us,and how the RDF could be used to combat these through coastal OP's and airport security.

They could assist the Gardai.The Gardai are already under staffed,with 14,000 Gardai for a population of 4 million plus.They can't afford to patrol the coast line,nor can Customs who have 1 or 2 Cutters for the entire sea territory of Ireland.The Navy is almost completely useless because they aren't being given a proper fleet or resources.So the RDF could carry out an ATCP role alongside PDF by manning coastal OP's and security at registered airports/airfields,to help combat these problems.How do you think the RIRA and CIRA get in all of their weapons from Eastern Europe?How do you think criminals get weapons and drugs into this country?Mainly by landing at small piers at the dead of night,in places like Cork and Kerry.The RDF can actually be used to do something for this State.It would take time to set up,but it could be and should be done.

Btw,I'm not a fool.I knew what I was signing up for when I applied to join RDF,as did my da when he joined the FCA in the '70s.Only difference is,I would rather do something to protect my country AND do military training ... rather than do just military training.

Also,for those of you who would like to see RDF overseas,could you imagine what these suggested roles would do for the organisation?Personnel would have gained first hand experience of manning overt OP's,something that is nearly always used overseas.It would weed out those only in the RDF 'for the craic'.PDF would see the RDF can carry out tasks assigned to them other than guard duties etc.It would give the RDF a higher profile among the Defence Forces and Government,as they would be providing State security.

You say that Reserves all over the world are there to augment full-time Forces.Yes,obviously they are.But they can do other things as well..

Bam Bam

eroo wrote: »

Where did I once state RDF would become a paramilitary police force?

Well....

eroo wrote: »

Why not use the RDF to combat something that threatens the everyday world we live in?EVERYBODY is threatened by it.I refer to drug smuggling,weapons smuggling,organised crime and subversives

Sounds to me like you want a parmilitary police force.

And what pray are the RDF to do when they've spotted a drug boat. Call it in for the Gardai to try to get there in time or are they to lock and load .

I think you should join the Garda Reserve, it seems to fit the overall role you want, rather then the training you will recieve in the RDF.

Bam Bam

OS119 wrote: »

this can take two paths, the first being the RDF doing the training/adminstering for the PDF (allow an RDF Officer be posted to G5 Paperclips job allowing a PDF officer to go overseas) meaning a greater proportion of the better trained, fitter PDF would be available for operations - effectively reducing the size of the PDF 'tail' compared to its 'teeth' - or by upgrading the RDF fighting units to be able to operate on traditional PDF territory.

the first would be cheaper, the second perhaps a longer term bet, but all require employment protection.

So john Doe reservist is to hand in his weapon and throw out all his training and hold high his mightly office stamp?

eroo

Bam Bam wrote: »

Well....



Sounds to me like you want a parmilitary police force.

And what pray are the RDF to do when they've spotted a drug boat. Call it in for the Gardai to try to get there in time or are they to lock and load .

I think you should join the Garda Reserve, it seems to fit the overall role you want, rather then the training you will recieve in the RDF.

How is that wanting a paramilitary police force?Use military reserves to monitor the coastline to tackle drug smuggling.Nobody said anything about them having extra powers such as arrest etc.RDF wouldn't be carrying out armed stops or rushing vehicles or boats.

Well yes,they would obviously report said boat to Gardai and relevant DF sections such as MP's.Then RDF personnel could provide armed back up to Gardai while Gardai arrest suspect(s) at landing site?Yes that would mean RDF entering big boy world,but that is what is needed.The RDF are supposed to be an almost mirror force of PDF,so why not allow them to do serious roles that PDF would do? i.e.ATCP .. we've all seen checkpoints with unarmed Gardai being backed up by PDF,so why not give RDF same responsibility regarding ATCP in the case of coastal OP's?Or is it a case of ''train them,but don't let let them do anything that would mean using what they have learned''?Maybe people are afraid to trust the RDF with any meaningful,serious role!?

I joined(I say joined,I'm still waiting:mad:) because I have an interest in Military,but more so I have an interest in Law Enforcement,which is why I plan on applying to train to become a full time Garda.Admittedly,that means issues that concern me may not concern Reservists as much eg organised crime,drug smuggling,so I may be a minority in wanting the RDF to be used to fight these examples of threats to this country,and every country.But I just don't see why the RDF isn't mobilised to tackle things that threaten the very State they gave an oath to..

Steyr

Bam Bam wrote: »

And what pray are the RDF to do when they've spotted a drug boat. Call it in for the Gardai to try to get there in time or are they to lock and load .

MP's?

eroo

Bam Bam wrote: »

And what pray are the RDF to do when they've spotted a drug boat. Call it in for the Gardai to try to get there in time or are they to lock and load .

Btw,it kind of sounds like your saying the RDF couldn't be trusted to carry out such a task?If they receive proper training on how to deal with a situ,I'm sure they would be more than capable.A serious role as already outlined would change the public and military perception of RDF from being a glorified gun club,to that of a useful,capable military organisation.

Dinter

eroo wrote: »

A serious role as already outlined would change the public and military perception of RDF from being a glorified gun club,to that of a useful,capable military organisation.

Actually that is a great point and if it happened I think there might be a shift in public opinion.

It's just that the Reserve are meant to support the PDF who are meant to support the Gardai (in this example).

If we have a situation were we have to call the PDF in it's pretty serious but if we're in a situation where we need the RDF we're fairly backs to the wall if you know what I mean!!

I don't mean that in a bad way (as in despearate measures etc). It's just that's how I think it would be portrayed in the media and possibly rightly as well.

Nuttzz

Sit in a remote OP watching the coast for drug runners?

When do you propose to do it? I work monday-friday, so that means saturday and sunday, sorry hunny but Im off to watch the coast for 4/8/12 hours.
how long before days/weeks of inactivity will demotivate you? How long before the older lot with wives/husbands/partners/children say I've better things to be going with my 48 hours off from work this week

This suggestion is one of the stupidest things I've read about the defence forces

Why does the reserve have to have any other role than backing up the PDF in an emergency? The PDF lads will tell you how boring CIT is or the mint is or gate policeman is or command stand to is. Why do the RDF need to do any of this or why would they want to do any of it? Perhaps they like to pose out side the local bank with a flakker and a rifle. The RDF should be a part of peoples lives, not the be all and end all as it appears to be for some here.

King Ludvig

Bam Bam wrote: »

Sounds to me like you want a parmilitary police force.

Nobodys talking about declareing martial law here, dont know where you got that idea from.

The point of this thread is to question wheather the Army Reserve/Naval Reserve could be better used by the state. Coastal OPs are only one example.
Im pretty sure some RDF personal have gotten riot training, that being another example. How would you operate a recall system for part timers would be the problem here.

Anyway there seems to be a big difference between opinions of people in the PDF and RDF.

Personally I see the ****e hole this country is turning into, with some of the worst crime figures in the EU. Drugs are everywhere, gangland murders are more and more frequent and as a result more innocent people are being killed.
Id like to see the government take a zero tolerance stance on crime, as was promised, and give proper funding to the Gards.

As a member of the Defence Forces (be it RDF) whose purpose is to "contribute to the security of the State and to fulfil all roles assigned by Government", Id like to be doing SOMETHING to combat the problems facing our society today. And whats wrong with that? I dont understand the hostile attitude been shown by SOME people.

And before you suggest it, I too plan on joining An Garda Siochana in a few years time.

eroo

Nuttzz wrote: »

Sit in a remote OP watching the coast for drug runners?

When do you propose to do it? I work monday-friday, so that means saturday and sunday, sorry hunny but Im off to watch the coast for 4/8/12 hours.
how long before days/weeks of inactivity will demotivate you? How long before the older lot with wives/husbands/partners/children say I've better things to be going with my 48 hours off from work this week

This suggestion is one of the stupidest things I've read about the defence forces

Why does the reserve have to have any other role than backing up the PDF in an emergency? The PDF lads will tell you how boring CIT is or the mint is or gate policeman is or command stand to is. Why do the RDF need to do any of this or why would they want to do any of it? Perhaps they like to pose out side the local bank with a flakker and a rifle. The RDF should be a part of peoples lives, not the be all and end all as it appears to be for some here.

I can understand concerns about hours away from home and all but ... people volunteer to join RDF,an organisation that can be called up at ANY GIVEN TIME?What is the point in joining an organisation you can't commit to?You think TA personnel join for the piss up's and ''craic camps''?No,they join knowing they may be called upon at any given time,something very few in the RDF realise.

Btw,I'm not aiming my comments or suggestions at anyone,just throwin' em out there!:)

Nuttzz

eroo wrote: »

I can understand concerns about hours away from home and all but ... people volunteer to join RDF,an organisation that can be called up at ANY GIVEN TIME?What is the point in joining an organisation you can't commit to?You think TA personnel join for the piss up's and ''craic camps''?No,they join knowing they may be called upon at any given time,something very few in the RDF realise.

Btw,I'm not aiming my comments or suggestions at anyone,just throwin' em out there!:)

Yes called up at any given time for an emergency, drug running is a national problem but not a military problem it is a law enforcement problem, last time i looked the defence forces were not in the law enforcement game.

The is a vast difference between the TA knowing they are going to be called up for a stint overseas compared to asking reserve memebers to sit by the coast and watch the skies and seas

eroo

Nuttzz wrote: »

Yes called up at any given time for an emergency, drug running is a national problem but not a military problem it is a law enforcement problem, last time i looked the defence forces were not in the law enforcement game.

The is a vast difference between the TA knowing they are going to be called up for a stint overseas compared to asking reserve memebers to sit by the coast and watch the skies and seas

So a national problem is not a military problem!?

Most of you have the wrong end of the stick here,I'm not suggesting the RDF carry out Law Enforcement.How is manning coastal OP's law enforcement?If anything,it is State Security ... which if I'm not mistaken is the main role of the Defence Forces.

Nuttzz

eroo wrote: »

So a national problem is not a military problem!?

No its not, the A&E crisis is a national problem its not a military one either.

Most of you have the wrong end of the stick here,I'm not suggesting the RDF carry out Law Enforcement.How is manning coastal OP's law enforcement?If anything,it is State Security ... which if I'm not mistaken is the main role of the Defence Forces.

how is sitting in a coastal OP on the off chance that you will see something a useful use of resources? Show me one other western country that uses its forces in such a manner? Believe me the drug boyos will know where the OP's overt or covert are likely to be, something as simple as following a truck/land rover as it leaves a barracks, very quickly.

Much better to have more CASA's to patrol the coast and a larger NS to patrol as well than this nonsensical notion of coast watching.

eroo

Nuttzz wrote: »

No its not, the A&E crisis is a national problem its not a military one either.



how is sitting in a coastal OP on the off chance that you will see something a useful use of resources? Show me one other western country that uses its forces in such a manner? Believe me the drug boyos will know where the OP's overt or covert are likely to be, something as simple as following a truck/land rover as it leaves a barracks, very quickly.

Much better to have more CASA's to patrol the coast and a larger NS to patrol as well than this nonsensical notion of coast watching.

Fair enough on your first point,but these national problems affect State security so the RDF does have a role imo.

Well the RDF is a waste of resources at the moment,with many personnel(all ranks)not showing up on a consistent basis,therefore if RDF was called up ... they couldn't be depended on as they would not have a clue what to do.

As I've already said,an important role for the RDF would make it more professional and weed out the wasters.I know it is a military org,but it could still fulfill that role while also carrying out the ones I've mentioned.Military training could be kept up by organising rosters and rotations of units and personnel to OP's etc,it could be done and should be.I say give the RDF a serious role,and RESPONSIBILITY!

stewiegriffin08

Hi

I know this has nothing to do with what you guys are on about now,
But is there members of the RDF on part time that dont get paid? and If so why. Whats the difference. I am buzy mon-fri, could I join the RDF part time or full time?

Other than serve your country... why would anyone join part time and not get any payment :rolleyes:

Bam Bam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9lsBwy-mRA&feature=related


:D:D

Remmy

Some good points here lads!

Apart from the navy is their any other armed protection of our coasts.DO the gardai operate boats on the coast to stop smuggling?Are they armed when they do this?