Future Proofing Heating System

fitzie79

After much too-ing and fro-ing I've decided against installing a "renewable" energy heating system due to the initial capital cost involved and also the fact that i'm not convinced that any of the options are the way forward. Instead I'm going to put as much insulation into the house as possible to reduce the heating requirement and also to get an air-tightness assessment to eliminate any drafts.

What I do want to do is to make sure that my heating system will be future proof, ie that when i have to convert from oil in x number of years that i will only have to replace the boiler and not the under floor/rads. My intention had been to go with a condenser oil boiler with UFH in the main living areas and rads in the bedrooms. What are the likely consequnces of this option going forward? I know that geothermal is more suited to under floor but rads would be more suited to solutions like wood pellet??

muffler

This will be more at home in the Renewable Energies forum. Moved

MickLimk

fitzie79 wrote: »

After much too-ing and fro-ing I've decided against installing a "renewable" energy heating system due to the initial capital cost involved and also the fact that i'm not convinced that any of the options are the way forward. Instead I'm going to put as much insulation into the house as possible to reduce the heating requirement and also to get an air-tightness assessment to eliminate any drafts.

I'm assuming it's a new build so first up, I'm not sure that you have that option!

According to the new Building Regs, you must install some source of renewable energy in a new build. Not 100% sure off the top of my head (am sure someone else on here will be able to quote exact details) but I think it's a minimum of 10kWh/year/m2 contribution to water/space heating/cooling or 3-4(?)kWh/year/m2 contribution to electricity consumption or a combination of both from a renewable energy source.

I think you're absolutely right to spend your money on insulation and airtightness but given that I think you have no choice in the renewable energy matter, adding solar is not that expensive in a new build in the grand scheme of things.

I said in a previous thread that I wasn't going to attempt this but here goes anyway:

Taking the capital costs:
Cylinder: You are going to need one anyway and this can amount to nearly 50% of the material cost in a solar system. If you're planning on trying to future proof your system, you are going to need to put in a large cylinder so the only extra cost would be the addition of a coil for solar. Stab in the dark figure, this could add <€100 to the cost of a cylinder you're already buying.

Solar Collectors: A recent price I was given for a 2 panel Manuf.A system was €2020 ex. vat (supply only, no cylinder, no installation). This includes most of the equipment needed (possibly more pipework & fittings required), controller, expansion vessel, etc. to complete an install for a system up to 200 litres. For a 300 litre cylinder, you'd want a 3 panel one of these systems, I'd guess a price of about €2600-2700 ex vat., again supply only.

A recent price I was given for a Manuf.B system (looks well, very like a roof window!) comparable to 3 panel one above came in at €2872 ex vat, including a 280 litre stainless steel cylinder.

If you were considering a premium evacuated tube product (my preference, better performing IMO), a 54-tube system, 300 litre cylinder, controller etc. could cost you €3832 ex vat from Manuf.C.

Obviously vat and especially labour will add considerably to the total cost here but if the guy plumbing your house is SEI registered, you would get back a considerable grant. There's no guarantee that these grants will be available forever either...

Manuf.A 2 panel: SEI Grant of €1070
Manuf.A 3 panel: €1605
Manuf.B 2x U12: €1100
Manuf.C 54 tubes: €1539.

Remember that the Manuf.B & Manuf.C prices both include a 280/300 litre stainless cylinder (which you're probably going to need anyway) which could cost you between €1100 - €1400 + vat to buy separately.

Total capital cost to you (taking out the cost of the cylinder cause you have to have one anyway and also the SEI grant available, not including any labour costs, extra materials) is:
Manuf.B: €1044 incl. 21% vat (used cheaper cylinder price)
Manuf.C: €1431 incl. 21% vat (used their cylinder price)

Manuf.B claims an output power of 3222kWh/year for that system, allow 10% for losses, giving an equivalent ESB saving of €435.76/year or equivalent oil (kerosene) saving of €292.88/year.

Manuf.C claim an annual output power of 3174kWh - 10% loss gives €429.40 ESB saving or €288.51 oil saving per year.

Personally, I think those figures claimed by the manufacturers are optimistic but even to take another 20% off them, still leaves a significant saving on an annual water heating bill. I've deliberately left out the labour costs but energy prices are only going one way...

sinnerboy

MickLimk wrote: »

I'm assuming it's a new build so first up, I'm not sure that you have that option!

According to the new Building Regs, you must install some source of renewable energy in a new build. Not 100% sure off the top of my head (am sure someone else on here will be able to quote exact details) but I think it's a minimum of 10kWh/year/m2 contribution to water/space heating/cooling or 3-4(?)kWh/year/m2 contribution to electricity consumption or a combination of both from a renewable energy source.

transitional arrangement is
planning applied on or after 30 June 08 and substantially completed ( i.e. up to wallplates ) by 01 July 08 - you can comply the current regs i.e. no requirement for renewables

HOWEVER

I would not try "dodge" the new regs - not in anyones short/long/medium term best interest

fitzie79

sorry should have clarified - it is a new build. It's the heating system that i am unsure about - i've been convinced of the merits of solar already

i will be aiming to exceed the new regs in terms of insualtion - energy costs only going one way......

AckwelFoley

Assuming insulation values comparable to that of B1 levels, and installed correctly, the payback on one particular Air to wateer unit im familiar with has been tested and calculated for a payback of between 3 and a half to 4 years.. so right from the start.. your arguentmt doesnt make sence..

In addition.. none of the tec been used is new... Solar is decades old ,and the tec used in the air to water system that i refer to is refridgertion tec which has been on the market since elvis was a boy.

Installing oil into a new build makes no sence to me at all.

The most important part of all this is already been taken care of by you.. and thats the insulation..

fitzie79

snyper wrote: »

Assuming insulation values comparable to that of B1 levels, and installed correctly, the payback on one particular Air to wateer unit im familiar with has been tested and calculated for a payback of between 3 and a half to 4 years..

i presume that the air to water system works best with underfloor heating? it's the decision on rads/underfloor heating that i want to make now before it's too late.

can you send me on details of the air to water unit (by pm if necessary).

No6

There is a futureproof heating system its called a passive house!! A lot more expensive in terms of insulation but cheaps in terms of heating systems. SEI have a CD on passive house guidelines available for free.

One way to ensure you're futureproof is to build a boiler house/room big (2m sq' or thereabouts) enough for any type of boiler you could ever imagine. Also have the plumbing installed in such a way that is is easy to connect another system in.

Who knows what type of boiler will be available in 20 years or so, Who could have predicted wood pellet boilers 20 years ago?

AckwelFoley

No6 wrote: »

There is a futureproof heating system its called a passive house!! A lot more expensive in terms of insulation but cheaps in terms of heating systems. SEI have a CD on passive house guidelines available for free.

Agreed..

..but Passive is becomming to sexy a word for my likeing.. for the simple reason that A1 passive rating is very difficult to acheive and not always possible, there are factors in house design and the site itself that due to some factors are not always possible to acheive.

I wouldnt sell an Air to water or geothermal system to a customer unless they A. get an energy assesment to show the energy rating of their house, or B. Have given an undertaking to acheive at very minimum a B3 insulation rating equivelent.

The new regs are in on July 1st and will require all homes to be in the B1 insulation standards.. this makes me mucho happy.. makes my job alot easier.. When meetng a customer i spend 50% of my time giving them contact information on where to get a BER done and advice on insulation..

Bu yes bottom line.. insulation is Key.

Fitzie79

I can send you a Simulaion report on the Air to water unit that was carries out in the dublin area. If you want to heat the house with it, yes ideally we would require underfloor, but at very least.. Aluminium rads or fan assisted rads..

Heatpumps operate on lower temps for heating a room ie. 25 - 40 degrees.. as does underfloor. Because Alu rads have larger surface area than steel rads and because the paint used on some of the steel rads (which requires 65 degree heat) reduces the output of the rads by 10%..

The use of rads instead of underfloor does not effect the sizing of the unit.. the energy consumption for the house will still be the same.. but rads are a poor way to distribute heat in a house



With under-floor heating the heat is where you want it - around you!
The warmest part of an under-floor heated room is the floor and the area immediately above it.The temperature gradually decreases towards the ceiling.

Conventional radiators create warm air that rises to the ceiling only to drop downwards again as a cool draught around your feet – convection heat. Under-floor heating systems provide a much more appropriate pleasant warmth and only produces a very gentle air circulation which varies only slightly from floor to ceiling – radiant heat


Brian