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Military Capabilities under Lisbon

  • 12-06-2008 12:06pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22


    “Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities”

    This is a vague-ish statement. Are there any specific targets we have to meet re. military spending, troop numbers, hardware capababilities etc?


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    RayMc wrote: »
    “Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities”

    This is a vague-ish statement. Are there any specific targets we have to meet re. military spending, troop numbers, hardware capababilities etc?
    Nothing in the treaty but once signed it allows detailed proposals to be brought forward though.

    You could also claim it's as vague as the *safegaurds* *cough* given to workers rights.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    No specific requirements, ie spending.
    'undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities' is already the goal of our military.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Nope, we can give our soldiers a pack of fire lighters and we've technically fulfilled our obligations. We are not required to increase spending one bit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Nothing in the treaty but once signed it allows detailed proposals to be brought forward though.

    You could also claim it's as vague as the *safegaurds* *cough* given to workers rights.
    And I think we both know which direction the eu is headed lately.

    The french already have military proposals planned for their presidency in two weeks. The BBC leaked them a few days ago


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    And I think we both know which direction the eu is headed lately.

    The french already have military proposals planned for their presidency in two weeks. The BBC leaked them a few days ago

    We retain a veto over military matters don't forget.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    There are no targets. There's no strict requirement that any money be spent either just that the military capabilities be improved.

    Odds are, that will require spending money. Whether it will require spending any more money than we have so far (the military has got a bunch of new kit recently) remains to be seen.

    I view that clause as preventing a nation from saying "Oh well, we have the common defence bits now* why bother spending anything on a military. If anything goes wrong all of the other member states will hop in for us."

    * Common defence bits don't apply to Ireland anyway, so the nation I'm talking about couldn't be us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    sink wrote: »
    We retain a veto over military matters don't forget.
    Look how hard the farmers had to fight to get a promise and just a promise (A FF one at that) just to use the veto.

    I wouldn't trust Biffo to stand up to France etc.. on this issue in a fit


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Look how hard the farmers had to fight to get a promise and just a promise (A FF one at that) just to use the veto.

    I wouldn't trust Biffo to stand up to France etc.. on this issue in a fit

    That is opinion I'm just stating the facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    Lisbon - "Good for Ireland, Good for Europe" is certainly up for discussion as an opinion too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    sink wrote: »
    That is opinion I'm just stating the facts.

    So is your opinion on what the original text means. Which in FACT is vague. All else is speculation and opinion.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Lisbon - "Good for Ireland, Good for Europe" is certainly up for discussion as an opinion too.

    Of course it is, I'm not arguing that. Imo it is, in your opinion it's not, we both have our reasons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭Clare_Guy


    sink wrote: »
    That is opinion I'm just stating the facts.

    All "Law" is open to interpretation...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    Clare_Guy wrote: »
    All "Law" is open to interpretation...
    I could easily imagine a court ruling that a pack of fire lighters was not enough and not in the *spirit* of the proposal.

    It just says so much about where the EU is headed without the necessary democratic safeguards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭Clare_Guy


    johnnyq wrote: »
    I could easily imagine a court ruling that a pack of fire lighters was not enough and not in the *spirit* of the proposal.

    It just says so much about where the EU is headed without the necessary democratic safeguards.

    +1


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    johnnyq wrote: »
    I could easily imagine a court ruling that a pack of fire lighters was not enough and not in the *spirit* of the proposal.

    It just says so much about where the EU is headed without the necessary democratic safeguards.

    Realistically we are already spending money on improving our military, we will continue to do so, we fulfil this term.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    What democratic safeguards are not in place. I can guarantee you it would be alot harder for 27 democratically elected leaders to agree on using force than one democratically elected leader.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    johnnyq wrote: »
    I could easily imagine a court ruling that a pack of fire lighters was not enough and not in the *spirit* of the proposal.

    It just says so much about where the EU is headed without the necessary democratic safeguards.
    sink wrote: »
    We retain a veto over military matters don't forget.

    Is he not saying it right? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Is he not saying it right? :confused:
    we retain a veto about eu war missions NOT about the proposal to increase capabilities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    we retain a veto about eu war missions NOT about the proposal to increase capabilities.

    We retain all veto's on military matters, the courts are independent anyway we can't influence them. The only military veto we don't keep is to do with the structure of the EDA and battlegroups.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    I could easily imagine a court ruling that a pack of fire lighters was not enough and not in the *spirit* of the proposal.

    It just says so much about where the EU is headed without the necessary democratic safeguards.

    The ECJ cannot rule on matters involving defence. The EU Parliament cannot rule on matters involving defence. On the Council we have a veto.

    The EDA is an advisory and research body only and has no power to issue binding targets.

    People have complained this means that we're signing up to this "with reservations". They're quite right, we are signing up to this "with reservations" - and those reservations (we're a small neutral country with no militaristic tradition) are well known and accepted by our EU partners.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Is it true that Ireland has ever exercised a veto? I heard that somewhere, I think on the news. Probably wrong, I would imagine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    turgon wrote: »
    Is it true that Ireland has ever exercised a veto? I heard that somewhere, I think on the news. Probably wrong, I would imagine.

    That is because we negotiate to find consensus. Things generally don't get put to a vote without consensus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭colly10


    sink wrote: »
    We retain a veto over military matters don't forget.

    When it comes to improving our military I doubt we can really veto when we will agree to it by accepting the treaty today


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭VoidStarNull


    turgon wrote: »
    Is it true that Ireland has ever exercised a veto? I heard that somewhere, I think on the news. Probably wrong, I would imagine.

    If the Lisbon Treaty passes, meetings and votes of the Council of Ministers will be held in public. So everyone will get to see exactly when and what we choose to veto.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    If the Lisbon Treaty passes, meetings and votes of the Council of Ministers will be held in public. So everyone will get to see exactly when and what we choose to veto.

    Yes but they could have done that with one simple ammendment not a big treaty


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Yes but they could have done that with one simple ammendment not a big treaty
    And then there'd be another amendment, and then another, and then another, and then...

    The treaty is designed to outline a plan for restructuring the Union. Doing it piecemeal is the least efficent way possible.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Yes but they could have done that with one simple ammendment not a big treaty

    Currently the treaties can't be amended by any other means than another treaty. The Lisbon treaty allows single amendments to be made at a time. This is the much criticized 'self amending clause' which has unjustly come under fire as the amendments will still require ratification by member states through the usual methods. So what you are asking can't be done without the Lisbon treaty or another treaty. If Lisbon is rejected it will take several years before any other treaty is even thought of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    sink wrote: »
    Currently the treaties can't be amended by any other means than another treaty. The Lisbon treaty allows single amendments to be made at a time. This is the much criticized 'self amending clause' which has unjustly come under fire as the amendments will still require ratification by member states through the usual methods. So what you are asking can't be done without the Lisbon treaty or another treaty. If Lisbon is rejected it will take several years before any other treaty is even thought of.

    My bad, though surely it could have been a single lined treaty. Theres no minimum of so many words surely.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    My bad, though surely it could have been a single lined treaty. Theres no minimum of so many words surely.
    What do you mean? As in a single line saying, "This treaty can be amended without referendum?".


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    My bad, though surely it could have been a single lined treaty. Theres no minimum of so many words surely.

    I'm not entirely sure what the legal differences between a treaty and an amendment are, but I have been told that a treaty is far more costly and difficult to draw up because it involves thousands of lawyers/solicitors and diplomats. Where as an amendment can be dealt with exclusively by elected officials on advice from legal professionals. I was told this by a diplomat so I take his word for it. That is why they lump everything together in one treaty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭FionnMatthew


    seamus wrote: »
    What do you mean? As in a single line saying, "This treaty can be amended without referendum?".
    ShooterSF is asking why we couldn't have had the treaty written in Playskool English.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    ShooterSF is asking why we couldn't have had the treaty written in Playskool English.

    Thanks for the ever blunt way of stating it!


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